SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[Otto]

8 hours ago, Doewhacker said:

It is in committee, no vote scheduled. It may never leave committee.

According to this week's Outdoor News, it is actually now a Budget item, not a legislative item, which means if the budget passes, so does this.  It will be much easier to pass if it is a small part of a big budget.  

[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

1 hour ago, growalot said:

 

 

That's called compromise. See non AR supporters are willing to say hey if it is actually close to being for herd health, we are willing to compromise and drop a buck tag. Where AR supporters want the power to be dictators and there is no compromise in a dictatorship. It's all or nothing. More and bigger racks is all that will squelch their need to be top dogs.

Mathewzshooter...if you want to fit in you need to learn how snide really is worked..lol 

I am sorry, but I just have to call complete and utter BS on that post Grow.  I can't wait to see how you will twist this back around, but oh well, I couldn't let it go.

You paint a rosy portrait of the "non AR supporters" you put your self among, as a group, as willing to compromise and consider the OBR.  Your WHOLE ENTIRE argument is based on the fact you don't want someone to tell you, or legislate for you what you can shoot.  You do not want choice or opportunity taken away.  You advocate for no change and all choice.  Now you want us to believe that as a group the "non AR supporters" would be for the OBR?  This would take away your opportunity and choice to take a second buck.  It further regulates what you can harvest.  You DON'T WANT regulations, remember?  You want it to stay the way it is cause you say that it is fine as it is right now.  You argue repeatedly that herd health isn't vital in this decision, and now you suggest that you are on the side of compromise for the good of the herd?

I have seen plenty of favorable mention of OBR, and the majority have been from those in favor of change.  Its been from those in favor of AR, from those improving the buck to doe ratios, and herd health.  But you suggest that anyone advocating AR is instead just looking for dictatorship.  There are many advocates of AR who simply want more bucks in the herd to survive another year and you now suggest that they are completely against OBR?  And yes, there are certain to be AR supporters who just dream of big bucks.  But if one side of this argument was in favor of compromising to OBR, I have to assume it wouldn't be the side that is mostly concerned about whether or not someone has limited their opportunity to pull the trigger.

I'm willing to bet that if this topic was on changing to OBR, and AR wasn't part of the discussion, you'd be singing the same tune about not changing something that is fine as it is.  Just doesn't sound like compromise to me.

If somehow, I am incorrect on this, then I apologize ahead of time to any "non AR supporters" that feel differently.  But your comments above don't jive with what has been written over, and over, and over, and over in this thread and the NEW one that just popped up.  Like the new thread was needed.   

[growalot]

Lol...I'd reply but my mouth is full of your words again.....

[DirtTime]

21 hours ago, wooly said:

Have you ever even killed a deer or two to know what size you prefer to kill?

If not, then I can understand how a guy who rarely kills anything would want to be able to kill everything.

Well, the DEC makes decisions on non-factual information, and the people suck it up. So what does it matter who has killed a deer or not? Why should it matter if I have killed a deer or not? I still have a right to my opinion. In fact, we all have a right to our own opinion. Cry like a baby because you shot a deer you hadn't planed to kill on your own time! 

[Death From Above]

17 minutes ago, growalot said:

Lol...I'd reply but my mouth is full of your words again.....

Funny, they were your words, not mine.

BTW, you don't have to speak.  You could just type.

[growalot]

METAPHOR...I never once said I didn't want any regulations..a OBR would be a regulation...But hey tell me what else I was thinking as I typed. People like you feel it's OK to  tell myself and others what we should think is an appropriate buck. This even if you have to do an end run around the people that are getting paid to make those decisions.

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by growalot

[stubby68]

36 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

I am sorry, but I just have to call complete and utter BS on that post Grow.  I can't wait to see how you will twist this back around, but oh well, I couldn't let it go.

You paint a rosy portrait of the "non AR supporters" you put your self among, as a group, as willing to compromise and consider the OBR.  Your WHOLE ENTIRE argument is based on the fact you don't want someone to tell you, or legislate for you what you can shoot.  You do not want choice or opportunity taken away.  You advocate for no change and all choice.  Now you want us to believe that as a group the "non AR supporters" would be for the OBR?  This would take away your opportunity and choice to take a second buck.  It further regulates what you can harvest.  You DON'T WANT regulations, remember?  You want it to stay the way it is cause you say that it is fine as it is right now.  You argue repeatedly that herd health isn't vital in this decision, and now you suggest that you are on the side of compromise for the good of the herd?

I have seen plenty of favorable mention of OBR, and the majority have been from those in favor of change.  Its been from those in favor of AR, from those improving the buck to doe ratios, and herd health.  But you suggest that anyone advocating AR is instead just looking for dictatorship.  There are many advocates of AR who simply want more bucks in the herd to survive another year and you now suggest that they are completely against OBR?  And yes, there are certain to be AR supporters who just dream of big bucks.  But if one side of this argument was in favor of compromising to OBR, I have to assume it wouldn't be the side that is mostly concerned about whether or not someone has limited their opportunity to pull the trigger.

I'm willing to bet that if this topic was on changing to OBR, and AR wasn't part of the discussion, you'd be singing the same tune about not changing something that is fine as it is.  Just doesn't sound like compromise to me.

If somehow, I am incorrect on this, then I apologize ahead of time to any "non AR supporters" that feel differently.  But your comments above don't jive with what has been written over, and over, and over, and over in this thread and the NEW one that just popped up.  Like the new thread was needed.   

You better reread what has been written over and over again. In fact someone even said people would have to go out of state to get a second buck if we had obr. Every mention of one has had people for AR saying no no no. Most times obr was mentioned Noone said we need it for anything. What was said is if any change is needed for the good of the herd then why not obr I stead of ar? Obr would mean fewer bucks being killed among them being smaller 1.5 year Olds because someone might not shoot that young buck just to get horns under his belt then wait for a second bigger buck. We have showed pics that prove there quite quickly number of 1.5 year Olds that could still be killed with ar. Those bucks could just have a better chance of a pass with obr. If it is all about the herd then obr would be the better choice. Maybe just maybe if the argument was we want ar because we want to force others to hunt the way we do. Or we want ar because we want big racks and as many as we can get the wouldn't be so much disdain for ar.Heck in Nebraska th r you are thinking of going to ar and they came right out and said it was because the out of states come here for big racks and we want to capitalize on that. Still people pushing against it but at least the real reason for wanting ar was owned up to.

           When we say why not go with obr we ar not taking away anybody ability to kill what they want. Obr will still let you shoot the big boy you want and let someone else kill what ever they want. Obr just limits how many of each can be killed. It would leave a few extra for the next year. You know leave a few for seed. Just think if a 150 inch buck get a pass because there is a 160 inch walking around the guy would like to get instead that 15 could be a 180 next year. You know the saying w just think what buck would have scored if let go another. With ar the 150 would get killed then when the 10 can by that would be killed also making for 2 less wal, hangers instead of one. Same cam be said for little bucks.  Would it be better if a guy shot 2 8 point 1.5 year Olds or just one leaving one to be a 2.5 year old 10 or bigger.

             If we need more bucks then obr is a better way to do it then ar which still allows for close to the same number of bucks killed every year. Obr would cut down on the total number of bucks killed per year in much greater numbers.

 

[Death From Above]

16 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

You better reread what has been written over and over again. In fact someone even said people would have to go out of state to get a second buck if we had obr. Every mention of one has had people for AR saying no no no. Most times obr was mentioned Noone said we need it for anything. What was said is if any change is needed for the good of the herd then why not obr I stead of ar? Obr would mean fewer bucks being killed among them being smaller 1.5 year Olds because someone might not shoot that young buck just to get horns under his belt then wait for a second bigger buck. We have showed pics that prove there quite quickly number of 1.5 year Olds that could still be killed with ar. Those bucks could just have a better chance of a pass with obr. If it is all about the herd then obr would be the better choice. Maybe just maybe if the argument was we want ar because we want to force others to hunt the way we do. Or we want ar because we want big racks and as many as we can get the wouldn't be so much disdain for ar.Heck in Nebraska th r you are thinking of going to ar and they came right out and said it was because the out of states come here for big racks and we want to capitalize on that. Still people pushing against it but at least the real reason for wanting ar was owned up to.

           When we say why not go with obr we ar not taking away anybody ability to kill what they want. Obr will still let you shoot the big boy you want and let someone else kill what ever they want. Obr just limits how many of each can be killed. It would leave a few extra for the next year. You know leave a few for seed. Just think if a 150 inch buck get a pass because there is a 160 inch walking around the guy would like to get instead that 15 could be a 180 next year. You know the saying w just think what buck would have scored if let go another. With ar the 150 would get killed then when the 10 can by that would be killed also making for 2 less wal, hangers instead of one. Same cam be said for little bucks.  Would it be better if a guy shot 2 8 point 1.5 year Olds or just one leaving one to be a 2.5 year old 10 or bigger.

             If we need more bucks then obr is a better way to do it then ar which still allows for close to the same number of bucks killed every year. Obr would cut down on the total number of bucks killed per year in much greater numbers.

 

Stubby,

I am in complete agreement.  I'd take OBR over AR in a heart beat.  I am not arguing its merit, just the merits of Growalot's statements as I outline above.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

15 hours ago, stoneam2006 said:

 

 

 

who cares about keeping older deer? That means nothing. Older deer is just for bone on the wall a 1.5 will breed just as well as a 5 yr old makes no difference. We need better land management to help the population thrive and be healthy which in turn will help them grow better bone faster. Who cares about the bone it means nothing. Let's quit trying to legislate this state let's quit trying to make it a hubting destination for TV shows let's just make it a state where everyone can go out fill their freezers and have fun and if your lucky enough to put some bone on the wall it will mean more.


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Riiiiight...You missed the boat a few years back i see. Today's deer world is all about the health of the older bucks that carry the Biggest,Best Racks!  Period.     Some hunters will go but most will stay to enjoy!

[ncountry]

19 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

Stubby,

I am in complete agreement.  I'd take OBR over AR in a heart beat.  I am not arguing its merit, just the merits of Growalot's statements as I outline above.

I'm in compete disagreement..lol..  I would take AR over OBR all day long...

With OBR..I am still going to shoot the 1st 120+ buck I see. where I hunt that is a trophy and 9 out of 10 years it is the only one you will see to shoot that year.. That usually requires a fair amount of time and effort in itself... I would be foolish to not reap the rewards of my efforts and enjoy the kill , for the off chance of seeing something bigger.

I love to deer hunt and take  1-3 does a year to fill my meat needs. Besides being a lot of fun. I still for the most part situate myself and put in the effort to target an older buck. I enjoy the  challenge and admittedly like horns..If a doe gives me a good shot (in a place i dont mind dragging her out of) during archery she's coming home with me..

Not the end of the world either way.. I can go out of state to get my fix if need be.. just seems like a waste to have all this hunti g land up here and not be able to hunt..

 

[wooly]

46 minutes ago, ....rob said:

Well, the DEC makes decisions on non-factual information, and the people suck it up. So what does it matter who has killed a deer or not? Why should it matter if I have killed a deer or not? I still have a right to my opinion. In fact, we all have a right to our own opinion. Cry like a baby because you shot a deer you hadn't planed to kill on your own time! 

Who's crying over deer they killed?

Maybe when you kill that first deer and it just so happens to be a mature 10pt buck, you'll change your tune and never want to kill a 1.5yo basket 6pt.

Maybe your first buck WILL be a basket 6pt that does nothing for you, so you'll learn that it's gonna take something a little bigger to make you happy.

Point is rob, right now you know nothing about what you like or don't like about killing ANY deer, big or small..... you just wanna kill ONE!

So yes, my point was quite relevant. Maybe you're just not cut out to be a deer hunter regardless of how many points they have, or don't have. I don't know how you feel you have a better understanding of deer management than the DEC when you hardly ever see anything. Instead of blaming them for herd mismanagement, maybe it's something YOU'RE doing wrong on your end as a rookie "deer hunter".

[stoneam2006]

Riiiiight...You missed the boat a few years back i see. Today's deer world is all about the health of the older bucks that carry the Biggest,Best Racks!  Period.     Some hunters will go but most will stay to enjoy!

If that's truly how you see it I feel sorry. Hunting should never be about trophies. It's about the encounter. I'll say it a million times over trophy hunting is ruining hunting as we and our ancestors knew it and it's a shame and I'm glad I'm not part of it.

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[Death From Above]

16 minutes ago, ncountry said:

I'm in compete disagreement..lol..  I would take AR over OBR all day long...

With OBR..I am still going to shoot the 1st 120+ buck I see. where I hunt that is a trophy and 9 out of 10 years it is the only one you will see to shoot that year.. That usually requires a fair amount of time and effort in itself... I would be foolish to not reap the rewards of my efforts and enjoy the kill , for the off chance of seeing something bigger.

I love to deer hunt and take  1-3 does a year to fill my meat needs. Besides being a lot of fun. I still for the most part situate myself and put in the effort to target an older buck. I enjoy the  challenge and admittedly like horns..If a doe gives me a good shot (in a place i dont mind dragging her out of) during archery she's coming home with me..

Not the end of the world either way.. I can go out of state to get my fix if need be.. just seems like a waste to have all this hunti g land up here and not be able to hunt..

 

I'd love to see something done to balance or buck to doe ratio, and I think that one of them would work quicker than the other (OBR).  But I see your point.  When I lived in PA I couldn't wait for opening morning, and all I could think about was shooting a nice buck.  However, deep inside I wasn't sure if I wanted to shoot one early, because that meant I was done hunting for the year.  That simple thought probably pushed me towards passing young bucks a lot more than just wanting to shoot a big one, or being a "trophy hunter".  I really wanted to just keep buck hunting, and if I shot one early that was it.  Luckily I could come back to my original home in NY to hunt as well.

Like everyone, I find it hard to not look at these ideas without focusing on how it affects me personally.  I typcially shoot 4-6 does each year, and my family of seven eat all of them in a year's time.  Yes that means two freezers, and we don't buy much beef.  My kids think beef steak tastes funny. However, I don't shoot many bucks because I try to shoot 3.5s or older, and that doesn't happen for me every year (I bow hunt only).  I wish it would kill one every year, but I am picky I know, and I just like to use the bow more than the gun.  I think I probably shoot a buck every other year in NY, but luckily I have much better luck hunting in other states for bucks with my bow.  So it is hard for me to imagine using two buck tags in NY, but I realize for others it is different.

If larger bucks are the goal, AR would be the deal.  If more bucks in the herd are desired, its OBR.  However, both will help accomplish both goals IMO, eventually. 

 

  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

14 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

 

If that's truly how you see it I feel sorry. Hunting should never be about trophies. It's about the encounter. I'll say it a million times over trophy hunting is ruining hunting as we and our ancestors knew it and it's a shame and I'm glad I'm not part of it.

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Well i guess if you have never had that..Encounter..you speak of with a real Trophy Whitetail then you really dont know.  Anyone can call any deer a trophy but when one really does hook up with a real trophy they are hooked on trophies for life. Simple!

[wolc123]

I would like to see a 3BR for those who buy an Archery, ML and gun tag.  I hope they never go for a OBR.

[Death From Above]

14 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

I would like to see a 3BR for those who buy an Archery, ML and gun tag.  I hope they never go for a OBR.

Wow...3br...?  why don't we just kill them all and get it over with.

[stoneam2006]

Well i guess if you have never had that..Encounter..you speak of with a real Trophy Whitetail then you really dont know.  Anyone can call any deer a trophy but when one really does hook up with a real trophy they are hooked on trophies for life. Simple!

My trophies on the walls are animals I killed without trail cams without food plots most on state land...deer that have memories deer that have added a value to my hunting knowledge deer that I earned. To me that's a trophy. And Joe blow can pay money and go shoot a "trophy" in a fence under a feeder (not saying you do) but not everyone can kill deer on stateland or on heavily pressured small population private land. To me bone on the head has absolutly 0 meaning to me none zip nadda. If I saw a spike walking thru woods in front of a 10 point I'd end up killing the spike bc my blood is pumping so hard every time I see a deer whether big or small I get tunnel vision I go into a state of slow motion. If that doesn't happen for you I am sorry and maybe you should pick up coloring.

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[dbHunterNY]

Where did that come from? I didn't type any of that.

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

51 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

 

My trophies on the walls are animals I killed without trail cams without food plots most on state land...deer that have memories deer that have added a value to my hunting knowledge deer that I earned. To me that's a trophy. And Joe blow can pay money and go shoot a "trophy" in a fence under a feeder (not saying you do) but not everyone can kill deer on stateland or on heavily pressured small population private land. To me bone on the head has absolutly 0 meaning to me none zip nadda. If I saw a spike walking thru woods in front of a 10 point I'd end up killing the spike bc my blood is pumping so hard every time I see a deer whether big or small I get tunnel vision I go into a state of slow motion. If that doesn't happen for you I am sorry and maybe you should pick up coloring.

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Sorry...Killed enough Babies when i was younger.  Shooting the dumbest, stupidest buck walk the woods in November does nothing for many seasoned hunters. Its a toss up who is the stupidest deer in the woods...The Button buck any time or a Yearling buck in November. Try finding a mature buck and then going and kill that buck on his turf and tell me what a Trophy is.

I really hope you are like in your 1st to 5th year as a whitetail hunter. There are Trophies on those state lands you speak of...Trust me, I see them on state land every year!  Plenty of stupid yearlings also. I did pick up coloring...Solid White made up of 8-12 points adding up to 130 inches plus is my Favorite color..

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, Death From Above said:

Wow...3br...?  why don't we just kill them all and get it over with.

Yeah no kidding..3 bucks...Then he can jump in his truck and go out and run down some of those great tasting Button Bucks!

[stubby68]

44 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

Where did that come from? I didn't type any of that.

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I have no clue why it says I quoted u as saying that. That is part of a post I made. No idea what happened there but was not my doing.

[Doc]

Wow! 38 pages and counting .... lol. These kinds of threads always do well. They give members a chance to beat their chests and declare what great hunters they are and proclaim that they are superior hunters who will only hunt the oldest and wisest buck in the woods. If they can find that old toothless, sway-backed, bag of grizzle, they have finally found the only worthy adversary in the woods that is fit to challenge their own superior hunting skills......lol.

And then there are those that claim that massive racks do nothing for them because they are only in it for the meat and that flash of antlers through the trees doesn't excite them one bit.

And let's not leave out the "custodians of the wild" that really only hunt purely for the benefit of the herd. They believe that the herd is doomed unless they heap an adequate volume of restrictions on hunters and hunting. They never saw a restriction they weren't in love with.

I love these threads because everybody gets to spout off and make themselves feel good and walk away thinking how they must have just impressed the hell out of the entire forum membership ...... lol. Can we get another 38 pages of this stuff? It helps to brighten the day.

[growalot]

You forgot the forum baiters and the analyzers that fray being indifferent and above it all showing their intellectual superiority....

[stoneam2006]

Sorry...Killed enough Babies when i was younger.  Shooting the dumbest, stupidest buck walk the woods in November does nothing for many seasoned hunters. Its a toss up who is the stupidest deer in the woods...The Button buck any time or a Yearling buck in November. Try finding a mature buck and then going and kill that buck on his turf and tell me what a Trophy is.
I really hope you are like in your 1st to 5th year as a whitetail hunter. There are Trophies on those state lands you speak of...Trust me, I see them on state land every year!  Plenty of stupid yearlings also. I did pick up coloring...Solid White made up of 8-12 points adding up to 130 inches plus is my Favorite color..

This fawn I shot on stateland was a deer I killed this year with my cousin after 4 straight days in the woods putting miles on a day still hunting reading the land tracking deer thru thick and thin. His first stateland hunt his first experience seeing a deer shot and killed his first track job. This is what hunting should be about see his smile. He talked about it for days. Still talks about it when I see him. This is what it should be this is how every deer taken should feel and what ever deer killed should look like. Every single deer I shoot is like this for me and I've been hunting better than 15 years (alot less than many, I know but only 28) If you don't get that I feel sorry for you.

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, stoneam2006 said:

 

 

This fawn I shot on stateland was a deer I killed this year with my cousin after 4 straight days in the woods putting miles on a day still hunting reading the land tracking deer thru thick and thin. His first stateland hunt his first experience seeing a deer shot and killed his first track job. This is what hunting should be about see his smile. He talked about it for days. Still talks about it when I see him. This is what it should be this is how every deer taken should feel and what ever deer killed should look like. Every single deer I shoot is like this for me and I've been hunting better than 15 years (alot less than many, I know but only 28) If you don't get that I feel sorry for you.

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Yup and young fellas will still be able to enjoy that gift right there. I can promise ya that if that was nice buck he would be talking about it even more. There are plenty of places for Ny hunters to hunt if the drive is there and with a little work on the laws and the herd it will be nothing but 100% better than what we already have. 

Remember our spot on the best and worst states to hunt whitetails in???   There is a reason for that!