First bow - Samick Sage

[grampy]

Can someone explain the fixed crawl, as it pertains to a recurve bow? It's been 30+ years, since I've shot trad, and I always shot centered, with one finger above the nocking point and two below. That seemed to work for me then, as that was how I learned. Also if I were to get 40lb. limbs or even 35lb. would I be able to pull this, with my bum shoulders? My compound is set at 53lbs. And at times that is very painful to shoot. As I've stated, I may come full circle and take my last archery deer using trad gear. That would mean a lot to me if I could possibly pull it off. I suppose I should just get to a pro shop and see what they have, and see if it will even be possible, before I get myself in a tizzy, about going trad again.

[ATbuckhunter]

Can someone explain the fixed crawl, as it pertains to a recurve bow? It's been 30+ years, since I've shot trad, and I always shot centered, with one finger above the nocking point and two below. That seemed to work for me then, as that was how I learned. Also if I were to get 40lb. limbs or even 35lb. would I be able to pull this, with my bum shoulders? My compound is set at 53lbs. And at times that is very painful to shoot. As I've stated, I may come full circle and take my last archery deer using trad gear. That would mean a lot to me if I could possibly pull it off. I suppose I should just get to a pro shop and see what they have, and see if it will even be possible, before I get myself in a tizzy, about going trad again.

I'd say you'd be able to shoot it in short sessions. I'd say try it out and see how it feels. Definitely start out at a 35 pound draw


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[moog5050]

Grampy

A fixed crawl is when, shooting three under, your top finger is below the arrow nock on the string by a set distance.  Usually around 1/2-1".  It allows you to put the tip of the arrow at a set distance, say 20yds, on the target and, assuming you have a solid shot sequence, it will hit where the tip was pointed.  It does detune the bow but is an easy way to aim.  You figure out where you want that crawl to work, say 20 yds, and gap from there.  Tip slightly high at 25 and low at 15, etc.  Its a form of string walking, but with string walking you move your top finger further or closer to the nock based on yardage to target so that the tip is always pointed where you want to hit.  With an ILF bow, its a bit easier to tune for a crawl because you can adjust tiller (usually moving more towards a negative tiller) but many will use a crawl even with a bolt down recurve.  Not so great with shorter bows, but it works.

[left field]

I am going too far down this archery research hole. Just saw these longbows which look pretty cool and are well reviewed. Maybe full trad is the way to go.

http://omegalongbows.webs.com/bowsandotherproducts.htm

 

[grampy]

44 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Grampy

A fixed crawl is when, shooting three under, your top finger is below the arrow nock on the string by a set distance.  Usually around 1/2-1".  It allows you to put the tip of the arrow at a set distance, say 20yds, on the target and, assuming you have a solid shot sequence, it will hit where the tip was pointed.  It does detune the bow but is an easy way to aim.  You figure out where you want that crawl to work, say 20 yds, and gap from there.  Tip slightly high at 25 and low at 15, etc.  Its a form of string walking, but with string walking you move your top finger further or closer to the nock based on yardage to target so that the tip is always pointed where you want to hit.  With an ILF bow, its a bit easier to tune for a crawl because you can adjust tiller (usually moving more towards a negative tiller) but many will use a crawl even with a bolt down recurve.  Not so great with shorter bows, but it works.

Thanks moog! That explains my question perfectly! Now is there a minimum length, that I should be looking for, when picking out a bow? As you said, not so great with shorter bows.  I still have your number. If I'm going to go full at this. Perhaps I'll just give you a call, at some point, so I can ask all these dumb questions, rattling around in my numscull........... grin!

[left field]

moog, you should do a conference call/lecture series for all us noobs. 

[moog5050]

1 hour ago, left field said:

moog, you should do a conference call/lecture series for all us noobs. 

Ha - only been hunting with a recurve for two seasons, but I did jump in with both feet, as I often do with things that interest me.  Right or wrong, I can be a bit too obsessive.  You both have my number.  Call if I can be of any help. 

Grampy, call me but I would stay with a bow of at least 60" or longer, especially if you plan to try a fixed crawl (longer the better).  I don't use the crawl because I didn't like how it detuned the bow and because I would constantly hit my nose with the string.  Some folks tape their nose for that very reason.  But it works.  I would bet it saved a lot of hunters from giving up on bare bow hunting.

[Buckmaster7600]

I am on the same adventure just with a little head start. Moog gave the best advice, GET A LIGHT DRAW! I shoot longbows and being 6'2 230lb and shooting an 80lb compound I figured 60lbs would be no big deal, yea I wasn't nearly as smart as the pro's! I now shoot a 40lb bow for hunting and 90%of my practice is with a 30lb bow. I shoot a Samick 1pc longbow I have 2 of the same bows 1 30lb and 1 40lb. I will eventually get a custom most likely Omega but I shoot my cheapo so well I'm in no hurry.

Moog is much more knowledgable than me but if I can help at all let me know. I bought 5 bows in my first year and have learned a bit about what I needed/wanted along the way.


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[grampy]

36 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

I am on the same adventure just with a little head start. Moog gave the best advice, GET A LIGHT DRAW! I shoot longbows and being 6'2 230lb and shooting an 80lb compound I figured 60lbs would be no big deal, yea I wasn't nearly as smart as the pro's! I now shoot a 40lb bow for hunting and 90%of my practice is with a 30lb bow. I shoot a Samick 1pc longbow I have 2 of the same bows 1 30lb and 1 40lb. I will eventually get a custom most likely Omega but I shoot my cheapo so well I'm in no hurry.

Moog is much more knowledgable than me but if I can help at all let me know. I bought 5 bows in my first year and have learned a bit about what I needed/wanted along the way.


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Thanks!!!

[left field]

Finally picked up the bow. 

Sage with 30 lb limbs. 

I thought he was setting me up with full length 500 spine carbon and 125 points but I just checked and they are 600 spine. I guess I should be fine. 

Ordered a endless loop string from mountain muffler which should arrive next week. 

Shot a few rounds at the shop and put them all at the same height at 20 yards.  No where near the bullseye, but at least some consistentency. Apparently I need to relax my shoulders. 

Have no idea how to aim. 

I'll pick up a target tomorrow. I think it needs to be a very large one. 

Thanks for all the help. 

[Doc]

Probably one of the worst ways to begin archery is to be over-bowed, regardless of what kind of bow you are using. And really it has nothing to do with the archer's physical build. the muscles used in archery are a specialized set of muscles that have little to do with other forms of activity. I have watched non-archers try to draw my bows and noted that even some rather big guys have to grunt and struggle with what seems very easy to me. You cannot work on proper form if you are struggling with just the simple act of pulling the string back.

I think another good thing to consider is that it is not likely that the first bow that you buy will be the one you wind up hunting with for years and years. It takes some experience to understand what works best for you. The reason I mention that is because we often have a tendency to throw money at our first purchase thinking that we can buy the perfect bow right off if we spend enough money. All that will do for you is to saddle you with an expensive bow that you will feel that you have to make work for you. I am more of a proponent of buying a cheap "starter bow" and grow into a final purchase that you have proven you need. A starter bow will develop those "archery muscles" quickly and at low expense. Almost any bow will serve to learn the fundamentals of proper shooting form as long as you are not struggling too much with it. In fact I would suggest buying used equipment for your first bow. Cheap and light with well matched equipment, and you will be off to a great start. You can buy that "dream bow" later after you have learned how to shoot.

[gjs4]

I just caved to playing w trad on the side. Got a 45lb Martin from a friend and a 55lb dorado. Not horrible from a performance standpoint a few weeks in. Then again I shoot my compounds basically year round.


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[gjs4]

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[left field]

@Doc

Not sure if you were referring to me as I picked up a cheap starter bow with a 30# draw. Don't think I'm over bowed.

Having a blast. Only three volleys of six arrows yesterday but am managing to hit 18" target at 20 yards. 

Question about arm guards. Does good form mean you don't hit your arm with the string. If so, not there yet. Damn. 

Edited July 30, 2017 by left field

[Doc]

18 hours ago, left field said:

@Doc

Not sure if you were referring to me as I picked up a cheap starter bow with a 30# draw. Don't think I'm over bowed.

Having a blast. Only three volleys of six arrows yesterday but am managing to hit 18" target at 20 yards. 

Question about arm guards. Does good form mean you don't hit your arm with the string. If so, not there yet. Damn. 

You are doing it right. 30# is probably a good place to start. It allows archery muscles to develop without damage. You'll know when to go for the big upgrade.

As far as the arm guard is concerned, I still use an arm guard. I use it more to keep control of bulky clothing. And yes, if you start whacking your arm, that is a good indicator that something is slipping up in your form. Good clean arrow flight will never be achieved if you are hitting anything with the string on release. Roll that elbow out a bit and train that to automatically be part of your bow arm form. Pay attention to your grip also since that can be a primary contributor to an elbow rolling in.

[left field]

Thanks. I'm slowly getting the idea of rolling my elbow in and my wrist out, though it is uncomfortable.

Here's a sobering moment of the power of the bow and my stupidity.

I was doing well shooting this target with a tree stump as a backstop. But the sun changed so I flipped around and now the target was on the lawn. I was still 10 yards away and 20 yards past the target was a wooden shed. 10 yards past that and 45 degrees to the left was my truck facing me. Do you see where this is going?

The occasional miss would go into the ground so I wasn't that concerned about errant arrows. But then I missed a touch high and the arrow hit a small stone past the target and deflected 45 degrees to the left. I heard a metal thunk. 

I felt like an idiot as this was a pretty rookie mistake. Lesson learned. Be aware of what's behind my target. Think.

[moog5050]

Yikes!  Yep, big back stop or a field behind is nice when you start for sure. 

Left field, in terms of string slap, it might be that your brace height is too low.  I was just setting my buddy up this weekend with a new bow and I never hit my forearm on my bow (it only has a 6.75" BH), on his with an 8" BH, I was hitting it every time.  We moved it up to 8.5" and the problem went away for both of us.  Bow seemed to tune well there too.  Also, try curling your pinky and ring finger in so that they sit outside of the grip.  It puts you hand in that 45 degree position you want which forces your forearm out of the way.  With a recurve, you should be able to avoid string slap.  With a hill style long bow, a forearm guard may be required.

600s should be good for a 30lb bow, assuming you don't draw to 32".  You may need a bit more point weight. 

Find a repeatable anchor that puts the arrow nock under your eye, then you can look down the arrow for your left to right aiming.  I use index finger on the upper tooth between my front teeth and canine. 

Also, stay close for a while until you are shooting tight groups and then move back 5 yds at a time, only moving when you have consistent tight groups. 

Just some suggestions based on my journey with a barebow recurve.  Enjoy.

[left field]

Thanks. 

I couldn't have hit that plate any better if I had aimed. Good penetration too. But it was stupid on my part.

The brace height is 7.5" The bow calls for 7.5 - 8.5" so I will experiment a bit. I have a new string coming from Steve B this week. Any advice on how to set a nock point without a square? 

I'm also looking at grips and see what you mean about holding with the thumb and first two fingers. 

My draw is approx 28". We left the arrows full length for now. Happy to use (and abuse) these arrows just to get myself into the motion, but I think a lesson or two and being measured for proper arrows are in my future. 

[moog5050]

with a recommended 7.5-8.5" BH, I would twist the string to bring the BH just a bit over 8" and see if you still have the slap.  It will cause the arrows to move a bit more right (act weaker) when shooting but without seeing how they fly now, that's not necessarily a bad thing.  On the nock, even without a square, you can eyeball it.  nock an arrow and put it on the rest, find the spot where it looks to be 90 degrees to the string at rest and then put the nock 1/4" above it.  It should get you in the ball park which is all you need when starting out.

[left field]

Again, thanks. I'll try it on this string. Does twisting a string to change brace height move the nock point or is it marginal?

Favourite tab? Right now, I'm using an old glove.

[moog5050]

15 minutes ago, left field said:

Again, thanks. I'll try it on this string. Does twisting a string to change brace height move the nock point or is it marginal?

Favourite tab? Right now, I'm using an old glove.

The change in nock height is usually marginal.  Don't worry about it.

I would definitely recommend learning to shoot with a tab from the start.  I started with a glove and it was painful making the switch, but I did and it was well worth it.  Much cleaner release.  I use the safari tuff tab from Rod Jenkins.  They last forever and are well made.  Be sure to trim it or you will get some slap from the tab.  Trim slow though.

[airedale]

A couple of recommendations for those looking into hunting with traditional archery, the "Fred Bear DVD" collection available on Amazon for around $25 and the Byron Ferguson book "Become The Arrow" also available on Amazon for about $12.

 

Al

Edited August 1, 2017 by airedale

[moog5050]

There is also a book called shooting the stickbow by Anthony camerrata (sp?) that is good.  From form to tuning discusses it all.  The author posts frequently in the AT trad forum.  Joel Turner and Arne Moe also have great videos on you tube. 

[left field]

I picked up Shooting the Stickbow and am working my way through it. Will check out the others.

I like Arne Moe's videos a lot.

[biggamefish]

For string slap I found that when I locked my elbow of my bow arm out i will get string slap. When you are shooting you should be doing a push pull kinda thing. By that I mean you should always be pushing the bow forward while pulling the string back. You will get a much cleaner release by doing this. That is more advanced for a beginner though. I tell everybody that is just starting out, start on your form first get a huge round bail or something like it and stand 5-10 feet from it and work on your form not accuracy. By form I mean your bow arm extended the same way your draw is consistent and your anchor and release is the same every time. You have back tension and you are holding at full draw with back tension and arm in line and not your elbow out to the side.

 You will find that if you do this your groups will start getting smaller as you become more consistent with your shooting. I said this before but check out Tradgang.com. There is a world of info there and lots of help from people that have been shooting for 20+ years. Plus you can talk to some of the more notable archers that make videos.