Wetlands on private property. What can you do?

[Core]

If on your own property there are NYSDEC designated wetlands, what can you do with that property? Can you cut down any of the trees? Can you plant new trees? Can you tap the trees for sap?

In NY there is also an additional 100 ft buffer around all wetlands. I believe it's generally impossible to get permission to build any structure in this 100ft zone. What else can you or can't you do? Can you put fences in this area? Let livestock on it? Can you plant any sort of tree you want?

Still exploring a land purchase and found out some of it unfortunately consists of wetlands and the 100ft thing is badly crimping my style. NY DEC offices are closed now and I only found this out at COB. Thanks!!

[sodfather]

That would be my ideal property, build a levy plant some Jap millet and other grasses and watch the green heads tear it up.. I'm sure this doesn't help you at all sorry, but I bet someone knows the regulations 

Edited April 8, 2017 by sodfather

[Core]

15 minutes ago, sodfather said:

That would be my ideal property, build a levy plant some Jap millet and other grasses and watch the green heads tear it up.. I'm sure this doesn't help you at all sorry, but I bet someone knows the regulations 

Well it's been a bit of bad news today in fact because I had been unaware of this and my dreams of what I wanted done with this property are slightly impacted. However, it also means some of the neighboring property is, 100%, guaranteed, never going to be developed (this is good). Means no chance of the land being stripped away over the years and less capable hunting land (which is one motivation for buying it).

I found this:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/6279.html

So that answers my question: I could at least cut down some trees for firewood. I assume tapping my own trees for sap is "normal agricultural activities"?

I can't tell if I could plant new trees...? Sounds like it. Also, the first bullet point seems to indicate that agricultural structures could be built on this land without a permit...so if I wanted a chicken coop I could as well as fencing for live stock?

My wife thinks i'm nuts (she's right), but I'm dropping a fortune on this and want to know I'm not hamstrung by something because NY says I can't use my own land.

[sodfather]

Don't take this the wrong way but have you fully settled on buying this property, I mean could you wait till something that is better pops up. I'm not aware of your situation or the price but just wanted to throw that out there. 

[Core]

19 minutes ago, sodfather said:

Don't take this the wrong way but have you fully settled on buying this property, I mean could you wait till something that is better pops up. I'm not aware of your situation or the price but just wanted to throw that out there. 

I've fully settled on buying this property or giving up. Not because of impatience but a scarcity of land in my area. Just hoping to figure out how much this impacts it!

[sodfather]

God speed, good luck with your project sounds exciting 

[Core]

11 minutes ago, sodfather said:

God speed, good luck with your project sounds exciting 

Nerve wracking as hell is another way to look at it 

[Nomad]

I'm not much help, but when my buddy bought his land idk 3 years ago, he hired some sort of land " expert" for lack of the correct term. But he checked for anything that could come back on my friend  , past dumps , old barrels of a waste oil , any wet land issues , drainage and so,on .

[Core]

13 minutes ago, Larry302 said:

I'm not much help, but when my buddy bought his land idk 3 years ago, he hired some sort of land " expert" for lack of the correct term. But he checked for anything that could come back on my friend  , past dumps , old barrels of a waste oil , any wet land issues , drainage and so,on .

Yeah we are getting it surveyed by a local engineering firm in any case. This was the first thing they came up with--a map of the property as far as wetlands are concerned. I never even knew it was a thing to be honest. I knew wetlands were real, I knew that the water on the property acted as drainage for other properties so I couldn't impact it willy nilly but the 100ft just cuts right into decent land.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Core

[Buckmaster7600]

It sucks! It doesn't affect what you can plant or cut but you can't built anything other than a poled structure "no foundation" and it drastically reduces land value. I am zoned agriculture so I can put up fences but I'm not sure if that's because of zoning. My suggestion is to stay the hell away from it. 20yrs ago when this crap first came out it was the wet lands now it's the wetlands and 100ft. Of our 250acre main farm we have about 25% as wetlands and it makes it basically worthless to everyone other than to the tax assessor.


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[sailinghudson25]

Go and ask the DEC.  

What I recall with adirondack loggers is not so much the trees are in wetlands.  It's what machinery can enter these wetlands.

[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, Core said:

If on your own property there are NYSDEC designated wetlands, what can you do with that property? Can you cut down any of the trees? Can you plant new trees? Can you tap the trees for sap?

In NY there is also an additional 100 ft buffer around all wetlands. I believe it's generally impossible to get permission to build any structure in this 100ft zone. What else can you or can't you do? Can you put fences in this area? Let livestock on it? Can you plant any sort of tree you want?

Still exploring a land purchase and found out some of it unfortunately consists of wetlands and the 100ft thing is badly crimping my style. NY DEC offices are closed now and I only found this out at COB. Thanks!!

I own about 54 acres that has 17 acres designated as wetlands.  While there are certainly restrictions that are imposed on this type of land, you can secure permits to do work that you would like to that may be either questionable, or not allowed under normal circumstances.  I have had to secure several permits to do projects with them, or in proximity to them (the 100' you mentioned). 

I use the land commercially, so it seems that it can be even harder for me to get the permits I have applied for.  That said, I am 2 for 3 so far as far as approval.  The third project we simply gave up on as the requirements got a little crazy IMO, and did something else that ended up working out better anyway.  Just note that there are potentially other obstacles to overcome, such as approvals from the Army Core of Engineers, NYS Coastal Authority (in some cases), and other county and township hurdles.  I have to post the proposals for local review in the newspaper, and allow for others to submit their opinions.  It can be a pain in the butt.

Of course that stuff above is important to know if you ask for permission first.  Many live by the motto that "it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission."  Wetlands are an area that I would caution you not to use that motto.  Get the permission first.  Too many people watch and look hard for violations in and around water, especially close to lakes.  Obviously, that can be for good reasons and I don't dispute that protecting wetlands is important. 

I can cut trees down around them.  They are my trees according to the DEC.  I just cannot cut or remove any wetland species, and if you learn which plants are protected you can know where your boundary is for digging etc.  I have had to install septic systems in close proximity to our wetland areas.  So if you do it right, with good engineers and DEC approval, you haven't purchased a useless piece of property by any means

.  Just be careful to ask questions and understand that there are limitations.  I fear those limitations are growing, but that is another subject.

 

[nyslowhand]

All the above plus a little FYI. A misconception a lot of people have is that a "wetland" is a swamp or boggy area. Wetlands are typically low lying areas with poor drainage and at times clay soil compounding the drainage issue. They are not necessarily wet areas year round, of course depending on seasonal snow or rainfall.

At least in my county/town, DEC designated wetlands are assessed at a lower tax rate. Which is great for rec/hunting lands, but could be an issue if you ever wanted to build a home in the future on the property. Believe each town handles the provisions of building on or improvements made to wetlands a little differently. In my instance & town I owned wetland property within, had to prove my pre-fad 12'x24' shed that was placed on a gravel pad was outside the 500' building restriction. Also for my specific land/town, IF ... building a home near a wetland w/o public sewer at the roadside, a waste system could get more $$ than a basic septic tank & leach field.

You can get wetland maps that are overlaid onto property tax maps from the DEC. That is, IF.. the property was previously surveyed visually for wetland designation and typically "wetland" surveyor tape posted. In my instance, there was no specific reference as to location of any flora/fauna that designated the land as wetland. Simply an outline of the area designated and crudely overlaid onto a county tax map..

[nyslowhand]

Couple other situations come to mind after re-reading other responses. IF you can log a wetland area, DON"T. The heavy logging equipment will create deep ruts rendering paths almost useless for anything other than foot traffic. IF.. you require the logger to go back with a dozer and fill-in the ruts, the financial gain from logging becomes less to the landowner. The changing of the terrain or plant life from this bulldozer work may also create issues with the town &/or DEC.

Optimistically - Deer don't care if an area is a wetland!! If you get an unusually wet April -> October season, they may simply skirt around deep pools of standing water. In my former ~40ac of wetlands, the deer have historic bedding & food sources and the travel routes between are only marginally impacted by unusual seasonal wet areas. Pessimistically - wetlands = mosquitoes galore!!

 

[stubborn1VT]

There is a whole lot involved in working in and around wetlands, as DFA pointed out.  There are different classes of wetlands as well.  

A guy I know had some excavation work done to dry out some hay fields that we hay.  He had some berms put in, cleaned out some ditches, put in culverts, and dug a small pond.  A anonymous, nosy neighbor called and complained to the state, and he had to basically return it to its natural state because it was classified as wetlands.  We thought of it as a wet area along the edge of some fields.  The state considered it valuable wetland.  

With that said, a good engineering firm could help you steer around all the regulations.  It wouldn't be cheap, but I have seen them "engineer" their way around just about anything.  I got to see it first-hand when a huge construction company proposed a development next to our house.  They designed a 3000' driveway that crossed a wetlands and climbed a steep grade, complete with 14' of fill to get above the wetlands, guardrails, and a catch pond for all the run-off.  We were glad the project failed, but I gained some respect for the engineers.  They had an answer for anything!  Guess it helped that the development company had deep pockets.  

I guess my points are this: 1) You are right to be concerned  2) It matters what your neighbors think of what you're trying to do  3) Engineers can help you navigate the regs and answer questions 4) It helps to have tons of money

[Core]

 

6 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

All the above plus a little FYI. A misconception a lot of people have is that a "wetland" is a swamp or boggy area. Wetlands are typically low lying areas with poor drainage and at times clay soil compounding the drainage issue. They are not necessarily wet areas year round, of course depending on seasonal snow or rainfall.

At least in my county/town, DEC designated wetlands are assessed at a lower tax rate. Which is great for rec/hunting lands, but could be an issue if you ever wanted to build a home in the future on the property. Believe each town handles the provisions of building on or improvements made to wetlands a little differently. In my instance & town I owned wetland property within, had to prove my pre-fad 12'x24' shed that was placed on a gravel pad was outside the 500' building restriction. Also for my specific land/town, IF ... building a home near a wetland w/o public sewer at the roadside, a waste system could get more $$ than a basic septic tank & leach field.

You can get wetland maps that are overlaid onto property tax maps from the DEC. That is, IF.. the property was previously surveyed visually for wetland designation and typically "wetland" surveyor tape posted. In my instance, there was no specific reference as to location of any flora/fauna that designated the land as wetland. Simply an outline of the area designated and crudely overlaid onto a county tax map..

Hmm. I believe you are referring to the 500' "check zone". Beyond the 100 ft buffer is a 500 foot check zone. Apparently my town will notify the DEC of things going on in the check zone (this property is entirely within it), but the DEC normally doesn't care.

My goal, other than to build a house/septic immediately next to the 100 ft buffer, is to eventually put an outbuilding there, maybe a chicken coop, etc. Do you think those things would have to go through extra work because of this check zone?

[TACC]

Couple other situations come to mind after re-reading other responses. IF you can log a wetland area, DON"T. The heavy logging equipment will create deep ruts rendering paths almost useless for anything other than foot traffic. IF.. you require the logger to go back with a dozer and fill-in the ruts, the financial gain from logging becomes less to the landowner. The changing of the terrain or plant life from this bulldozer work may also create issues with the town &/or DEC.
Optimistically - Deer don't care if an area is a wetland!! If you get an unusually wet April -> October season, they may simply skirt around deep pools of standing water. In my former ~40ac of wetlands, the deer have historic bedding & food sources and the travel routes between are only marginally impacted by unusual seasonal wet areas. Pessimistically - wetlands = mosquitoes galore!!
 

This is a simple solution you tell the logger/ forester to negotiate that as part of the contract to make the roads to your satisfaction. Additionally tell them to make them not only passable but to create a food plot area also.

If they want the timber they will do it, if not there will be another logger

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[moog5050]

The property I own is 60% designated wetland.  You do need to file for a permit with DEC to do things as simple as put pallets in on a trail.  That said, the hunting is great and land was cheap for the area.  Lots of bedding and deer activity.  No building of a structure in that area unless approved which made no difference to me as I live 30min away and just use it for hunting.  Low taxes too.  Pros and cons.  All depends on your intended use.  I have never heard a complaint about cutting trees, but my cutting is limited to trail and stand work.  More deer trails and beds that you can imagine.  Plenty of good bucks there too. 

[growalot]

Ya you can go directly  to the town clerk/ tax office and explain you have property that is in limited use and no building due to the state and insist on a reassessment. Got mine down several thou.Oh and if it is road frontage they charge high rate for so many building lots per so many acres.. I had The building lot rate removed,due to the whole 25 being under contract as no building residential.

Edited April 8, 2017 by growalot

[growalot]

TACC..no kidding read those standard contracts and make sure they have specifics on All parts of logging road clean up clearly written and enforceable. With an inspection to be done prior to equipment removal Here is the thing about this...you have to be there...I can't tell you how many people Ive seen rolled over on this point...learning the hard way. 

[turkeyfeathers]

IMO get some gators and stock them

[dmandoes]

might have a hard time having it reassed when u  r willing to pay what u just bought it for. 

[TACC]

IMO get some gators and stock them

I think the snow I'd a little rough on the gators, lol

But also to grow's point, about t he contracts, I agree with you. We have been using the same forester for 25 years and gave created a relationship and he knows what we expect, and he does the inspection prior to equipment removal

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[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, Core said:

My goal, other than to build a house/septic immediately next to the 100 ft buffer, is to eventually put an outbuilding there, maybe a chicken coop, etc. Do you think those things would have to go through extra work because of this check zone?

I am often surprised at what seems reasonable to you and I, isn't in the eyes of some folks who have the power to supply us those permissions.  In fact, of the three times I have filed applications for work our around our wetlands area, the one that seemed to us to be the smallest, least invasive project, is the one that I had to change my plans three times before altogether giving up on obtaining that permit.

To me there are two ways to do it.  You go through the process yourself and do all the work with the DEC and anyone else necessary to do your project.  This is the way I have handled most of my projects whenever a permit is required for either DEC or local/county building projects.  I simply hate to pay for an engineer stamp when I don't have to, and personally I like the challenge.

However, some of my projects require a engineer stamp as they are commercial endeavors.  But there are other time when I suggest using an engineer, and yours IMO is one of those.  Picking an engineer that works with the DEC is invaluable.  They understand the regs, but more important have working relationships already with the permit office in the DEC, and can work fast to get the job done.  They also have the necessary understanding of what other entities need to lend their approval, and can get that done in an efficient fashion as well. 

While you can do it yourself, and likely have success, I'd pay the engineer to have it done without the headaches.  If you are building a house, just put it into your expected expenses to make sure it is done quickly and right.  If you are around wetlands, your water table is going to likely be high, so that is even more reason to get a engineer involved in the building process.

If you haven't bought the property yet, I would go and "interview" an engineer.  Find one that has expereience doing what you want done.  Tell them you are interested in hiring them, but need to know if the scenario you have in mind is reasonably easy to accomplish with the persmissions required.  They can better answer the question that you are asking here, and I have never had one charge me anything to evaluate whether or not they can do the work for me.  They don't want jobs that get them no's, cause they aren't getting paid for those.

Just some suggestions....

[Core]

I have a builder and we've engaged with a general engineer, but I walked the land today. It's possible to have the DEC or an approved engineer "reassess" the wetlands area and really nail it down. It seems to me we're going to have to do that. Unfortunately, as I walk it he may actually bring the wetlands out, which will encroach further into the land and at that point make it unusable for what I want. I will kick this off Monday morning I think. I will need to know one way or another exactly what this will do for the project.