can you explain why hunters would want to shorten gun season?

[Robhuntandfish]

3 hours ago, Hock3y24 said:

I cant stand how long firearms season is here. wish it was 1-2 weeks kinda like pa is. 

Why?  Can't see an advantage to shorten it. If it's too long dont hunt it all. Other guys only get out on weekends. 

[Robhuntandfish]

19 hours ago, chas0218 said:

If I took a break my property would be over run with trespassers. After the first 2 weeks I only go out and sit to keep people off my property. Pretty sad but true. No presence in the woods basically gives all the local scum bags free reign.

I would like to see a shortened season and 1 buck rule if they aren't going to do statewide ARs.

That's a one property issue. That doesn't make sense statewide.  

[Hock3y24]

49 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Why?  Can't see an advantage to shorten it. If it's too long dont hunt it all. Other guys only get out on weekends. 

I get that, however other states do just fine with the shorter season. Id be open to expanding a flintlock season or something like that, or even breaking gun season up into 2 different sections with a break in between.  

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 hours ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Why?  Can't see an advantage to shorten it. If it's too long dont hunt it all. Other guys only get out on weekends. 

Easy, because deer that are less pressured, tend to be more visible. Split the gun season up a bit, and the weekend warrirors wouldnt actually miss much time in the woods, and youd basically have multiple opening days. Plenty of other states do it that way and it works for them, why not here?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

9 hours ago, ccondid1 said:

The argument for a shorter gun season lies not in the bow hunter versus gun hunter debate as many who have read this thread have been mislead to believe. The arguement is for improving the health of the whitetail deer herd. This is well supported by scientific research. Despite the science this is a complex issue and hunters need to be informed on this in order to make the best decisions to support the longevity of our sport. The DEC's decision making process is to balance the two sides of the trophy hunter vs meat hunter disparity. So lets all take an unbiased look at the statistics and sciendce before taking this any further. 

Lets look at the year 2016 for an example of numbers:

- In NYS 78% of deer harvested in the calendar year are killed by firearms 

- 27,199 bucks were killed with archery equipment/ 107,006 bucks with firearms (79% of all bucks are taken by firearms)

Based on these numbers we can be certain that the firearms season has a much greater impact on the buck (and doe) population that the archery season. If we were to shorten the season we would have more bucks surviving to maturity thus improving the age structure of the herd. Age structure is a summary of the number of individuals in the herd of each age group i.e. fawns, 1.5 year old bucks, 2.5 year old bucks, and so on. Research shows that herds with an imbalance of young bucks leads to does not being bred until their 2nd or 3rd estrous cycle. This leaves their fawns born 1-2 months later making them less likely to survive the subsequent winter. Additionally when young bucks are allowed to do the bulk of the breding, due to the lack of mature bucks, their body weights drop low enough to compromise their ability to survive the winter. 

The evidence was also presented earlier in the thread that the "Big Buck" states of the Mid West have short gun seasons. This leads to better herd dynamics and improved trophy quality, despite high numbers of deer taken.  

So here we have information that  tells us shorted firearms seasons could improve herd health and increase number of mature bucks in the woods. I dont know any hunters who would say that more mature bucks in the woods is a bad thing. This drives up hunter interest and allows for hunter retention. One of the most critical threats to the future of hunting is diminishing hunter interst and the lack of a voice of the hunter masses in politics. It is currently our privilage as US citizens to go out and hunt, however we need to make an effort to be informed on how hunting is conservation to convince the non-hunters of our value. 

Are there other ways we could achieve improved age structure.. yes! These include changing to a 1 buck per hunter regardless of weapon system, earn a buck programs, antler restrictions, move the firearms season further back from the rut ect. None of which are all that appealing to most because they are more restrictive regulations and force certain behaviors that not all value. 

To reitierate the reason for this type of change is not to support bow hunters more than gun hunters. It is to reduce the harvest of bucks to improve age structure of the herd for overall health and opportunity for more mature bucks. I realize this is long winded and complex to a certain extent. I do feel that this is critical information to know when thinking about these issues and not pitting this as a this groupp versus that group arguement. The dividing of hunters as a whole is a tactic that anti hunters will use in the future to try and remove our privalge to hunt. It is our job as hunters to be educated, vocal, and aware of the issues that effect the beautiful pastime we all share. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All the numbers are great. Just one question. when using those numbers to support the shortening of gun season you should include how many bucks and deer are taken during the different segments of the season. You seem to be supporting a shortened season but don't say to what duration. if is is a 10 day season then how many bucks and deer are taken in that portion of the season compared to the total that you feel is a detriment to the herd. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

29 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Easy, because deer that are less pressured, tend to be more visible. Split the gun season up a bit, and the weekend warrirors wouldnt actually miss much time in the woods, and youd basically have multiple opening days. Plenty of other states do it that way and it works for them, why not here?

"Weekend warriors"? Seems pretty derogatory towards folks that work or are just a casual hunter.  If someone works and only hunts weekends and Thanksgiving that is 9 days total of season. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

5 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

"Weekend warriors"? Seems pretty derogatory towards folks that work or are just a casual hunter.  If someone works and only hunts weekends and Thanksgiving that is 9 days total of season. 

If anyone takes offense to being called a weekend warrior, then they probably would have voted for Bernie Sanders. I didnt say they were slobs, slackers or anything like that.

[The_Real_TCIII]

Count me among the “weekend warriors” with the occasional vacation day. I take no offense but am jealous of you guys that can hunt every day lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[chas0218]

30 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

Count me among the “weekend warriors” with the occasional vacation day. I take no offense but am jealous of you guys that can hunt every day lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

X2.
 

Honestly would it be so bad as to allow hunting on weekends and a few days during the week. Not many people can make it out during the week unless they live on the property they hunt. You could even say no hunting on the off days no matter the implement. I think you would see more deer with the less pressure. I think PA does something like this with their doe season or bucks only. Maybe that was the old way or something before the ARs not entirely sure. 

DEC should sit down with all involved parties minus the insurance companies and look at all the other states that have healthy populations of deer. A few I can think of is Ohio, Illinois, Wyoming, Kansas, Iowa, Minnesota. Compare their seasons and how they coincide with the rut then look at the terrain and agriculture for the areas. They could take the best practice from each and have a healthy and manageable deer herd. What they do now is kind of a fly by the seat of your pants management more reactive than proactive. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

17 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

X2.
 

Honestly would it be so bad as to allow hunting on weekends and a few days during the week. Not many people can make it out during the week unless they live on the property they hunt. You could even say no hunting on the off days no matter the implement. I think you would see more deer with the less pressure. I think PA does something like this with their doe season or bucks only. Maybe that was the old way or something before the ARs not entirely sure. 

DEC should sit down with all involved parties minus the insurance companies and look at all the other states that have healthy populations of deer. A few I can think of is Ohio, Illinois, Wyoming, Kansas, Iowa, Minnesota. Compare their seasons and how they coincide with the rut then look at the terrain and agriculture for the areas. They could take the best practice from each and have a healthy and manageable deer herd. What they do now is kind of a fly by the seat of your pants management more reactive than proactive. 

I could see doing a first 9 day season and run only weekends from there. 

[Robhuntandfish]

13 hours ago, ccondid1 said:

The argument for a shorter gun season lies not in the bow hunter versus gun hunter debate as many who have read this thread have been mislead to believe. The arguement is for improving the health of the whitetail deer herd. This is well supported by scientific research. Despite the science this is a complex issue and hunters need to be informed on this in order to make the best decisions to support the longevity of our sport. The DEC's decision making process is to balance the two sides of the trophy hunter vs meat hunter disparity. So lets all take an unbiased look at the statistics and sciendce before taking this any further. 

Lets look at the year 2016 for an example of numbers:

- In NYS 78% of deer harvested in the calendar year are killed by firearms 

- 27,199 bucks were killed with archery equipment/ 107,006 bucks with firearms (79% of all bucks are taken by firearms)

Based on these numbers we can be certain that the firearms season has a much greater impact on the buck (and doe) population that the archery season. If we were to shorten the season we would have more bucks surviving to maturity thus improving the age structure of the herd. Age structure is a summary of the number of individuals in the herd of each age group i.e. fawns, 1.5 year old bucks, 2.5 year old bucks, and so on. Research shows that herds with an imbalance of young bucks leads to does not being bred until their 2nd or 3rd estrous cycle. This leaves their fawns born 1-2 months later making them less likely to survive the subsequent winter. Additionally when young bucks are allowed to do the bulk of the breding, due to the lack of mature bucks, their body weights drop low enough to compromise their ability to survive the winter. 

The evidence was also presented earlier in the thread that the "Big Buck" states of the Mid West have short gun seasons. This leads to better herd dynamics and improved trophy quality, despite high numbers of deer taken.  

So here we have information that  tells us shorted firearms seasons could improve herd health and increase number of mature bucks in the woods. I dont know any hunters who would say that more mature bucks in the woods is a bad thing. This drives up hunter interest and allows for hunter retention. One of the most critical threats to the future of hunting is diminishing hunter interst and the lack of a voice of the hunter masses in politics. It is currently our privilage as US citizens to go out and hunt, however we need to make an effort to be informed on how hunting is conservation to convince the non-hunters of our value. 

Are there other ways we could achieve improved age structure.. yes! These include changing to a 1 buck per hunter regardless of weapon system, earn a buck programs, antler restrictions, move the firearms season further back from the rut ect. None of which are all that appealing to most because they are more restrictive regulations and force certain behaviors that not all value. 

To reitierate the reason for this type of change is not to support bow hunters more than gun hunters. It is to reduce the harvest of bucks to improve age structure of the herd for overall health and opportunity for more mature bucks. I realize this is long winded and complex to a certain extent. I do feel that this is critical information to know when thinking about these issues and not pitting this as a this groupp versus that group arguement. The dividing of hunters as a whole is a tactic that anti hunters will use in the future to try and remove our privalge to hunt. It is our job as hunters to be educated, vocal, and aware of the issues that effect the beautiful pastime we all share. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is prob the best reason I have heard.  But does it outweigh limiting opportunities for others to hunt?  Wpuls we rather have the chance of a longer season and more time in the woods to get that buck or less time but more big bucks available.  Tough call. But I don't like a shortened season push to make more bucks avail to bow hunters or because the season is too long and I don't wanna hunt that long.  I still think we have the best of it all and after opening day to me it seems that the woods quite down again. And with so many less hunters these days I think that also helps bucks survive. With deer numbers in most areas very high and some very generous seasons I think we have it pretty good

[Five Seasons]

On 11/13/2017 at 4:35 AM, wfmiller said:

AR's don't work and that is proven for one.

 

It is? when was this declared?

[Core]

6 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Easy, because deer that are less pressured, tend to be more visible. Split the gun season up a bit, and the weekend warrirors wouldnt actually miss much time in the woods, and youd basically have multiple opening days. Plenty of other states do it that way and it works for them, why not here?

Interesting idea. Maybe have two weekends for gun in November and two more in early January with nothing in between except maybe just the one week of late MZ.

[Five Seasons]

5 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

If anyone takes offense to being called a weekend warrior, then they probably would have voted for Bernie Sanders. I didnt say they were slobs, slackers or anything like that.

i'm a weekend warrior gun hunter for the most part. I take my vacation during archery and usually a day or so during thanksgiving weekend.

[turkeyfeathers]

7 minutes ago, Core said:

Interesting idea. Maybe have two weekends for gun in November and two more in early January with nothing in between except maybe just the one week of late MZ.

So 8 days of regular gun and a week of ML after ?  Deer are dropping horns by January

[Zuke]

2 hours ago, Robhuntandfish said:

This is prob the best reason I have heard.  But does it outweigh limiting opportunities for others to hunt?  Wpuls we rather have the chance of a longer season and more time in the woods to get that buck or less time but more big bucks available.  Tough call. But I don't like a shortened season push to make more bucks avail to bow hunters or because the season is too long and I don't wanna hunt that long.  I still think we have the best of it all and after opening day to me it seems that the woods quite down again. And with so many less hunters these days I think that also helps bucks survive. With deer numbers in most areas very high and some very generous seasons I think we have it pretty good

This would make more/older bucks available to everyone the following year, not just bow hunters. How would they be only available to the the bow hunters?

[Zuke]

I have noticed a lot of people on this forum stating how they had “no sign of the rut” this year and I firmly believe, as ccondid1 stated, this is a herd health issue. If the buck/doe ratio was closer, many of you may see a more active rut. If the bucks have a dozen does for every one of them, no need exists to waste energy seeking, they’re easy to find and with relatively no competition.

[chas0218]

On 11/13/2017 at 4:35 AM, wfmiller said:

AR's don't work and that is proven for one.

You're kidding right? Between our property and our neighbors we all practice AR and have had some really nice bucks come off the 400 acres total that we all practice AR. Each year on our property alone we have 2 or 3 "shooter" bucks in the 130"+ range not to mention the handful of 100"-110" bucks then a few smaller 1.5 and 2.5 year olds. Every year either on my property or the neighbors we harvest 4.5 year old or older deer.

Let me know when you find credible information stating AR don't work. 

[njg0621]

There is a reason why NY is the WORST HUNTING STATE IN THE COUNTRY and every time these discussions come up it proves why.  DEC along with the majority of NY hunters don't want to implement the right rules to grow big bucks.  The mentality in NY is that most guys are meat hunters....which I get so why don't we let the meat hunters SHOOT ALL THE DOES THEY WANT! I just don't get it, all the states that grow big bucks have a short gun season, ALLOW HUNTERS TO SHOOT AS MANY BUCKS AS they WANT and this allows bucks to survive.  I gave up on NY and just accept that the hunting sucks here.  Until I hunted out west I never knew any better but once you do you realize just how bad it really does suck here.  I still log over 100 hours in the stand because I don't have a choice but I don't enjoy it as much anymore.  In Illinois you literally don't even need a doe tag as a resident you can just shoot does without a permit.  Anyways just my opinion, I know most won't agree but I agree 100% that we should shorten the gun season and allow hunters to harvest more does. Forget about antler restrictions they aren't needed if the gun season is shortened.  I'm not even gonna get into the shotgun only thing.....

 

Why NY sucks....   http://www.wideopenspaces.com/top-10-worst-deer-hunting-states/

Edited November 15, 2017 by njg0621

[WNYBuckHunter]

37 minutes ago, Zuke said:

I have noticed a lot of people on this forum stating how they had “no sign of the rut” this year and I firmly believe, as ccondid1 stated, this is a herd health issue. If the buck/doe ratio was closer, many of you may see a more active rut. If the bucks have a dozen does for every one of them, no need exists to waste energy seeking, they’re easy to find and with relatively no competition.

Or maybe most of the guys that have seen no sign of the rut just plain arent hunting the right areas. I can tell you, that out of 1000+ acres of private land that I hunt, on any given day in the thick of the rut, only maybe 100 acres of it total, are prime rutting areas. Deer dont run willy nilly all over every inch of land during the rut, they tend to concentrate their activity in certain areas. Sure, you might see some chasing here and there in other areas once in a while, but heavy rut activity mostly takes place in certain places.

For example, I could be hunting a stand and see 3 bucks chasing hard, does running around, the whole 9 yards. My buddy could be hunting the same property, at the same time, just a few hundred yards away and tell me that every deer on the farm has disappeared into a black hole because he hasnt seen a hair.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

16 minutes ago, njg0621 said:

There is a reason why NY is the WORST HUNTING STATE IN THE COUNTRY and every time these discussions come up it proves why.  DEC along with the majority of NY hunters don't want to implement the right rules to grow big bucks.  The mentality in NY is that most guys are meat hunters....which I get so why don't we let the meat hunters SHOOT ALL THE DOES THEY WANT! I just don't get it, all the states that grow big bucks have a short gun season, ALLOW HUNTERS TO SHOOT AS MANY BUCKS AS they WANT and this allows bucks to survive.  I gave up on NY and just accept that the hunting sucks here.  Until I hunted out west I never knew any better but once you do you realize just how bad it really does suck here.  I still log over 100 hours in the stand because I don't have a choice but I don't enjoy it as much anymore.  In Illinois you literally don't even need a doe tag as a resident you can just shoot does without a permit.  Anyways just my opinion, I know most won't agree but I agree 100% that we should shorten the gun season and allow hunters to harvest more does. Forget about antler restrictions they aren't needed if the gun season is shortened.  I'm not even gonna get into the shotgun only thing.....

 

Why NY sucks....   http://www.wideopenspaces.com/top-10-worst-deer-hunting-states/

Sure you do, You have a choice.  As for your "let them shoot all the does they want" comments it shows you don't have a grasp of the differing habitat and population densities across NY. There is no way you could responsibly pull that off. (If you  true goal is the health of the herd). If you just want an easier time shooting the next buck for your wall I can see how you could support that approach. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

40 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

You're kidding right? Between our property and our neighbors we all practice AR and have had some really nice bucks come off the 400 acres total that we all practice AR. Each year on our property alone we have 2 or 3 "shooter" bucks in the 130"+ range not to mention the handful of 100"-110" bucks then a few smaller 1.5 and 2.5 year olds. Every year either on my property or the neighbors we harvest 4.5 year old or older deer.

Let me know when you find credible information stating AR don't work. 

So what are the specifics for your self imposed ARs? Is that the only thing you are doing? No habitat work, etc?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

42 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Let me know when you find credible information stating AR don't work. 

Been a while since we've had an AR thread that blew up into 100 ages. Let the tally begin...lol

[Doewhacker]

I have taken AR's to the next level. I don't shoot ANY deer. TOP THAT!!!

[njg0621]

7 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Sure you do, You have a choice.  As for your "let them shoot all the does they want" comments it shows you don't have a grasp of the differing habitat and population densities across NY. There is no way you could responsibly pull that off. (If you  true goal is the health of the herd). If you just want an easier time shooting the next buck for your wall I can see how you could support that approach. 

I love to hunt and I hunt hard, unfortunately I can't afford to go away on a hunt every year...so no I don't have a choice I have to hunt here.  It's pretty simple just implement some of the laws from the top 5 whitetail states and we would grow bigger bucks.  They all allow the harvest of more does and less bucks.  I know that i live in 4C and there are 10 to 1 does to bucks in the area. I also need a preference point to shoot a does in 4C, does that make sense? I also know that whatever NY currently does isn't working! You can't argue that point at least, what we are doing is an epic fail so why not try something new? I will never win this argument here like I said but the numbers speak for themselves....We are the worst hunting state in the country...we must be doing it all right