Wonderful Quote From The Late Charlie Alsheimer

[stubborn1VT]

Out of the dozens of hunters I know, only a handful are horn hunters.  Those few are rich business owners who travel to hunt.  I don't know anyone who horn hunts in Vermont.  Pretty much every male in my hometown hunts, and I can't think of one who is going to eat tag soup instead of putting meat in the freezer.  

I grew up on a dairy farm, and still hunt there.  There were times when I routinely saw 15+ deer at at time in one field.  In 30+ years of hunting, I have seen a handful of "big" bucks.  If I had to guess, I have seen less than 10 bucks that were 3.5 years old or older.  If you waited for a mature buck, you would likely go years without filling a tag.  Eating venison is way more important.  In Vermont we don't get to shoot does with a rifle, so lots of young bucks get killed.  The bucks are getting bigger, probably due to more posted land, less hunter participation in the state, some mild winters, and the state's ban on shooting spikehorns.  The hunters I know are more interested in body weight than horns.  

I shot a half-rack forkhorn this rifle season, and I was thrilled!  I don't care what someone else shoots, and I consider the hunting shows on TV to be entertainment, not reality.  I don't live in Iowa.  I guess I'm speaking for the dozens of hunters I know ( a hundred?) not just myself.  I don't know a single hunter who would actually call themselves a horn hunter.  That's the reality in my neck of the woods.

Edited January 15, 2018 by stubborn1VT
clarity

[landtracdeerhunter]

Some nice looking deer Four Seasons.  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Out of the dozens of hunters I know, only a handful are horn hunters.  Those few are rich business owners who travel to hunt.  I don't know anyone who horn hunts in Vermont.  Pretty much every male in my hometown hunts, and I can't think of one who is going to eat tag soup instead of putting meat in the freezer.  
I grew up on a dairy farm, and still hunt there.  There were times when I routinely saw 15+ deer at at time in one field.  In 30+ years of hunting, I have seen a handful of "big" bucks.  If I had to guess, I have seen less than 10 bucks that were 3.5 years old or older.  If you waited for a mature buck, you would likely go years without filling a tag.  Eating venison is way more important.  In Vermont we don't get to shoot does with a rifle, so lots of young bucks get killed.  The bucks are getting bigger, probably due to more posted land, less hunter participation in the state, some mild winters, and the state's ban on shooting spikehorns.  The hunters I know are more interested in body weight than horns.  
I shot a half-rack forkhorn this rifle season, and I was thrilled!  I don't care what someone else shoots, and I consider the hunting shows on TV to be entertainment, not reality.  I don't live in Iowa.  I guess I'm speaking for the dozens of hunters I know ( a hundred?) not just myself.  I don't know a single hunter who would actually acall themselves a horn hunter.  That's the reality in my neck of the woods.

It's not about being a horn hunter in this conversation. It's about big antlers being the drivin force in the hunting world for most hunters. Some go to any lengths to try to get one but most every hunter hopes and prays for the biggest and then settles for less. Which equals antlers being the final outcome. The meat will come along even if the hunter fails on big because they will settle for less. Same reason the big get shown to the world and the little go to knives and dog treats.


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

Awesome!!! I’ve been to the zoo too and have been amused by the beauty of “wild animals.” Now just relate your pets/business to how the entire NY hunters are horn crazy with factual evidence and I will admit to you how jealous I am of you and your HUNTING expertise.


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Well it must be my Zoo that amazes you the most as every other post out of you is either talk about my deer and the money I make or pictures of my animals when they have nothing to do with the subject. To answer your next inquiry the 30 plus animals sold of this farm a year are all 160-260 inch animals that find their way into Ny hunters homes= Drive for inches! The pictures you dig up or I send are Urine bucks that hunters buy in their=Drive for inches. My personal hunting has nothing to do with the conversation but I would put my wall of Ny harvested book bucks up against any with no problem. By the looks it's not the hunting you are jealous of but more the life and animals. After all it's obvious by your printing and pictures that they are on your mind. A Lot!


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[goosifer]

10 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

First off . . .

Third. More than half the hunters out there do not have what it takes to find and kill a big buck. Fact.  That means locate an animal in your hunting area and go out and "Hunt" that buck and kill it. Fact.   Most hunters start out with trying/hoping to kill a big buck and then settle for less. Fact   That in my book is a hunting world drivin by big bucks.   Many say its all about the meat and that may be their case but lets be honest...How much does it really take to kill just any deer?  Not much "Hunting" involved there. Go sit in woods and kill first deer. Done!

. . . With the way the world is going there will come a time when hunters will have no choice but to buy land, Pay big money for a lease or hunt high fence. many like to be non believers but high fence hunting grows bigger and bigger every year where enough bucks cant be made to fill the demand.

Deer hunting and hunters will continue to drop and only those that put in will stay in. Non hunters will outnumber hunters and nothing but private lands will be open for hunters. 

Just the way it is but anyone who does not believe that most hunting and hunters are driven by all those pretty tine's and long beams that add up to inches are just fooling themselves. . . .

4SW, Thank you for your responses. A few follow up questions:

On your third point, I would think a lot more than half don't have what it takes to find and kill a big buck. (When you factor in the time and financial commitment involved, that number get's even higher.) Relative to when you started hunting, do you think it is now easier or harder for a beginner hunter to learn what it takes to find and kill a big buck? While there are now a lot more technology, gear, youtube videos, forums like this, DVD's and magazines on the subject then in the past, I get the impression there seems to be less person-to-person mentoring/teaching opportunities.

Regarding public land for hunting, why do you believe that will not be an option in the future? Legislative changes? Or just that there will be no/too few big bucks such that hunters will not want to bother with public lands?

[Five Seasons]

tl;dr

 

what's the latest?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

13 minutes ago, goosifer said:

4SW, Thank you for your responses. A few follow up questions:

On your third point, I would think a lot more than half don't have what it takes to find and kill a big buck. (When you factor in the time and financial commitment involved, that number get's even higher.) Relative to when you started hunting, do you think it is now easier or harder for a beginner hunter to learn what it takes to find and kill a big buck? While there are now a lot more technology, gear, youtube videos, forums like this, DVD's and magazines on the subject then in the past, I get the impression there seems to be less person-to-person mentoring/teaching opportunities.

Regarding public land for hunting, why do you believe that will not be an option in the future? Legislative changes? Or just that there will be no/too few big bucks such that hunters will not want to bother with public lands?

That statement was pointed more towards the fact that most guys go into the season(Hunt) with a couple bigger deer in/on their hunting areas and will kill a lesser deer before killing one of those couple or another big deer that moved in. Hence the fact that its those bigger deer that are on their minds as they hunt and enjoy their Journey.= Big Deer Drives Hunting.

I think today and in the future most new hunters will be young kids from todays hunters, There are 1000's more non hunters than hunters every day. The new hunters are coming into a world that bigger is better and they will live in that world and that will carry over into their hunting. All the kids of hunters in my group are born to dedicated deer hunters that thrive and are four season deer hunters that pursue bigger deer, They have their choice of what to kill and they do kill a pile of females and have taken small 6's and 8;s and one has already shot higher scoring deer then his dad ever has. They hunt hard and want only the biggest and best buck they can get while filling their harvest needs dropping females.

I believe it will be a combo of both when it comes to state land. law's will change in some areas and in others on state land that have no harvest rules or hunter number control will be destroyed.  It has already started on some state lands that had great hunting where Ar was intact and hunter numbers were controlled. Within a couple more years that park will get less hunters because of lack of wildlife. Hence the drive for high dollar leases in good deer country and the continued growth of high fence.

 

[Marion]

Hell you want fact just go look at the trail cam pics and words that go with them in the months of Sept Oct and Nov and that will show you the true meaning of fact. And again you show your jealousy of my deer by going hunting looking for pics to post. Hell you want pics of real deer to drool over just say the word!


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That is a deer that you would never find in the real woods. Its a freak of nature and looks ridiculous. The only way to get that big is controlled breeding and controlled feeding so nobody cares about your "real deer"

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

That is a deer that you would never find in the real woods. Its a freak of nature and looks ridiculous. The only way to get that big is controlled breeding and controlled feeding so nobody cares about your "real deer"

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Oh I would guess a few seem to care about them as they seem to speak of them and show pics of them often, even is threads that have nothing to do with them. Another Fact. And if you didn't care you would not of put finger to keyboard to make a statement. Enjoy!


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[stubborn1VT]

4 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

It's not about being a horn hunter in this conversation. It's about big antlers being the drivin force in the hunting world for most hunters. Some go to any lengths to try to get one but most every hunter hopes and prays for the biggest and then settles for less. Which equals antlers being the final outcome. The meat will come along even if the hunter fails on big because they will settle for less. Same reason the big get shown to the world and the little go to knives and dog treats.


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Still disagree with "big antlers being the drivin(g) force in the hunting world for most hunters".  I get the connection to the hunting industry and your line of business, but I don't see how that carries over to "most hunters".  Sure, hunters get excited about big antlers, but I don't know anyone who hunts just to put a big rack or mount on the wall.  I expect reality is somewhere inbetween.  Where I'm from the driving force in the hunting world is still venison.  

[corydd7]

There is no way FSW isn't trolling. Reading what and how he writes there is no way he is being serious. I say cage them all so we all don't have to be jealous lol.

[sodfather]

5 hours ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Well it must be my Zoo that amazes you the most as every other post out of you is either talk about my deer and the money I make or pictures of my animals when they have nothing to do with the subject. To answer your next inquiry the 30 plus animals sold of this farm a year are all 160-260 inch animals that find their way into Ny hunters homes= Drive for inches! The pictures you dig up or I send are Urine bucks that hunters buy in their=Drive for inches. My personal hunting has nothing to do with the conversation but I would put my wall of Ny harvested book bucks up against any with no problem. By the looks it's not the hunting you are jealous of but more the life and animals. After all it's obvious by your printing and pictures that they are on your mind. A Lot!


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[Four Season Whitetail's]

13 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

Still disagree with "big antlers being the drivin(g) force in the hunting world for most hunters".  I get the connection to the hunting industry and your line of business, but I don't see how that carries over to "most hunters".  Sure, hunters get excited about big antlers, but I don't know anyone who hunts just to put a big rack or mount on the wall.  I expect reality is somewhere inbetween.  Where I'm from the driving force in the hunting world is still venison.  

So care to tell me why everyone puts out trail cams and then only put the biggest on their hit list? 

[stubborn1VT]

1 minute ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

So care to tell me why everyone puts out trail cams and then only put the biggest on their hit list? 

Hit lists are for TV.  The only hunter I know with a hit list is a spoiled rich kid.  He has 1000+ acres that his family manages for deer.  The rest of the guys I know are pretty pleased to put meat in the freezer each fall.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

3 minutes ago, sodfather said:

 

Nothing about excellence but more about that what others lack. You continuing to post about the subject just shows what you lack.   Sorry you missed out.  Carry On!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

7 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

Hit lists are for TV.  The only hunter I know with a hit list is a spoiled rich kid.  He has 1000+ acres that his family manages for deer.  The rest of the guys I know are pretty pleased to put meat in the freezer each fall.

My God man...Do i have to really walk you over to the trail cam thread and actually copy and paste all the people on this site that put up pics of the bucks on their property and yet only speak of the biggest?

Maybe just go to the post Biz just put up. Pic's of a whole bunch of bucks yet the biggest 8pt in the series he speaks of as his target buck?  The only thing different about the other deer is the 8pt has a little larger rack. Most have same size body and couple are probably the same age?    Just the way it is for most hunters.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Four Season Whitetails

[stubborn1VT]

You continue to preach from what you experience.  I know people on this site have hit list.  I'm saying that in my part of the world it is different.  The biggest buck reported in Vermont in 2016 was around 126".  There's a whole world of hunting that you are misrepresenting with your grand proclamations.  You don't really know it all, you just seem to like to speak for the rest of us.  

[sodfather]

6 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Nothing about excellence but more about that what others lack. You continuing to post about the subject just shows what you lack.   Sorry you missed out.  Carry On!

I never posted about the subject just put that up when I seen you spitting your extensive knowledge about everything that pops up on every single thread.. A slice of humble pie would serve you best and sure others would agree.  In life, usually the guy who has to go out of his way to express how much they know is 9 out of 10 times is the guy who is the biggest D-bag. NOW I'll carry on!!!! 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

3 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

You continue to preach from what you experience.  I know people on this site have hit list.  I'm saying that in my part of the world it is different.  The biggest buck reported in Vermont in 2016 was around 126".  There's a whole world of hunting that you are misrepresenting with your grand proclamations.  You don't really know it all, you just seem to like to speak for the rest of us.  

Bullshit...I said antlers draw and push most all hunters in the woods in one way or another and i show you in black and white time after time.   I can imagine nobody in Vermont would have a hit list. They are lucky to see a whitetail. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

4 minutes ago, sodfather said:

I never posted about the subject just put that up when I seen you spitting your extensive knowledge about everything that pops up on every single thread.. A slice of humble pie would serve you best and sure others would agree.  In life, usually the guy who has to go out of his way to express how much they know is 9 out of 10 times is the guy who is the biggest D-bag. NOW I'll carry on!!!! 

Yeah right....And again you are one to jump into a post that you had nothing to put into. You are just like the others that put words in peoples mouths.  I made the statement that hunters enjoy the big antlers right along with the Journey and i have proved it over and over. Go back and read the posts and educate yourself before you jump in on something.

[stubborn1VT]

4 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Bullshit...I said antlers draw and push most all hunters in the woods in one way or another and i show you in black and white time after time.   I can imagine nobody in Vermont would have a hit list. They are lucky to see a whitetail. 

I haven't seen any black and white.  You're so full of yourself that you can't tell facts from your self-important opinions.  We see plenty of deer and kill them.  That's why there aren't many big ones.  Not everyone gets to be Lee Lakosky or 4SW.  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

I haven't seen any black and white.  You're so full of yourself that you can't tell facts from your self-important opinions.  We see plenty of deer and kill them.  That's why there aren't many big ones.  Not everyone gets to be Lee Lakosky or 4SW.  

Thats because you dont want to be schooled again. I just gave you a perfect example posted on this site not an hour old yet you ramble on about me being full of myself. I tell the facts like they are and have plenty of proof to back up those words yet you just keep pissing in the wind.

I dont need just opinion when i can show fact!

[stubborn1VT]

You crack me up.  You think you are qualified to speak for the hunting industry as a whole?  You need some kind of medication.  I just get tired of seeing you speak for all hunters, that's all.  There's no use discussing anything with you, cuz you're a know-it-all.  You pizz all over everyone and can't handle any other point of view.  I gotta go get some ice fishing gear ready for tomorrow.  Stay frosty.  You will always be a legend at the keyboard, and in your own mind!

[turkeyfeathers]

C'mon    doesn't everyone have Antlerville under their avatar for location ?! 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

You crack me up.  You think you are qualified to speak for the hunting industry as a whole?  You need some kind of medication.  I just get tired of seeing you speak for all hunters, that's all.  There's no use discussing anything with you, cuz you're a know-it-all.  You pizz all over everyone and can't handle any other point of view.  I gotta go get some ice fishing gear ready for tomorrow.  Stay frosty.  You will always be a legend at the keyboard, and in your own mind!

Yeah and next time you want to get involved in something you obviously have no clue about come on back and i will give you more fact to go along with my opinion.  Mostly now your adding in more words to the post by saying i am speaking for all hunters when in fact it was speaking for most.  The few that use this site that cant admit the truth and see whats black and white in front of them are just a drop in the bucket.

You are not even man enough to admit that the facts are there for all to see just as the one just today.  That says it all!