17 killed in shooting at high school in Parkland, Florida, authorities say

[steve863]

1 hour ago, Steuben Jerry said:

If it wasn't an AR, it would be a pistol, shotgun, box truck, car, etc. 

 

 

Yeah, but why is a gun typically the weapon of choice?  To make a bomb takes a bit of ingenuity that everyone doesn't have.  A car or truck you can't drive thru the halls or classrooms of a school.  I myself will never be convinced that a gun isn't the EASIEST tool to use if you want to kill many people in a short period of time.  Add to this the easy availability of them and it's a NO brainer why someone would choose a gun over anything else.  Right now the AR rifles seems to be the weapon of choice for such slaughters so we can take that for whatever it's worth.  I will not go as far as saying that they should be banned, but I will say that ever since these weapons have increased in popularity in this country, gun owners have more than ever been put on the defensive and portrayed in ever worsening way.   In the long run I don't know how much good they have done us.

 

 

 

 

[Steuben Jerry]

1 hour ago, First-light said:

It won't stop them. Like you said it will be done with something else but....with less of an impact. We all know what an AR 15 can do in such a short period of time.  No need for it at all. You want to shoot one go rent it at the range. 

I like to shoot on my own back 40.

I understand what you're saying, but when you say no need, it's a damn slippery slope. You don't "need" more than 1 or 2 guns, and you certainly don't "need" more than a handful of rounds, so why not include that? If he didn't have more than a few bullets he wouldn't have been able to shoot more than a few people.

I reiterate that you can't legislate away a nutcase with an intent to harm. Murder is illegal, bringing a gun on school grounds is illegal, but that didn't stop him. And taking away lawful gun owner's AR's wouldn't have stopped him either.

Armed guards at the school might have stopped him. It probably would have deterred him. We have armed guards at banks, but not at schools. That's ridiculous.

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Steuben Jerry

[Five Seasons]

18 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

When my daughter was very young. 4 or 5 I think. I had been up to hunting camp and had a pack of playing cards in my bag when I unpacked. I tossed them on the shelf in my closet. On that same shelf was a rear stock portion and hammers from an old percussion muzzle loader shotgun. No barrels. just stock, trigger and hammer section I was going to put fake barrels on it and hang it above the fireplace.  Fast forward a few weeks and she wanted to play cards. Well anyone that has had young kids know that trying to find a deck of cards in your house without any missing is like looking for hen's teeth. So I sent her up to my closet to get the deck I put on the shelf. about 5 minutes goes by and she isn't back. I walk up and into the room and there she is standing in front of the closet staring at the shelf. I asked he what was wrong, couldn't she find the cards. She said "They are right there Daddy but they are on the gun and I can't touch that".  Proud daddy moment right there. I knew she was listening and it was sinking in. I guess my point to this long winded story is I agree, Education is the key.  I know the Left's collective heads would implode at the thought but I really think there should be firearms training in school. Hell we teach them about sex education and how to handle that and protect themselves. Why not firearms training and training on how to act during situations like an active shooter. 

I imagine all 3 of my boys would react the same. Unfortunately for every parent like you and I, there are dozens who aren't raised around guns and in fact have bigger issues. They have no fathers, they're raised in bad neighborhoods, they're surrounded by violence, poverty and abuse. So like I said earlier, I agree that the family structure is a major contributing factor. There is no real way to fix it. To me it is almost as unsolvable as the nations drug problem. Drugs are illegal and thousands are dying every day from overdoses...

[Five Seasons]

18 hours ago, Papist said:

 

Oh, and the shooter is a meso-American Beaner, not white btw. 

 

cant believe it took you to page 2!

[Five Seasons]

17 hours ago, steve863 said:

 

 

This should become an interesting discussion.  Heck, the NRA had a hard time admitting that background checks are of ANY value at all.   How would anyone know that someone is crazy without some sort of background check when purchasing a gun?  Who would make the determination that someone is indeed "crazy"?  How about private sales where background checks are not required in most states?  Tough questions and I don't see anyone on the either side of the gun debate coming up with any real good answers. 

quite a few members here argued to keep private sale loopholes in place. Convincing them that mental illness should be a right to disarm someone ought to be fun. 

[Five Seasons]

12 hours ago, Rob... said:

All these posts, and not one moment to say a Prayer or a thought given to those killed, or the families affected by this! Never seen a more heartless group of people then some on this site! 

My thoughts and prayers go out the all the victims caught up in this travesty. 

what a tool bag. You have no idea how many of us have sent prayers. Sorry I didn't know I needed to proclaim that online. Is that going to fix the problem you think? 

[First-light]

48 minutes ago, Steuben Jerry said:

I like to shoot on my own back 40.

I understand what you're saying, but when you say no need, it's a damn slippery slope. You don't "need" more than 1 or 2 guns, and you certainly don't "need" more than a handful of rounds, so why not include that? If he didn't have more than a few bullets he wouldn't have been able to shoot more than a few people.

I reiterate that you can't legislate away a nutcase with an intent to harm. Murder is illegal, bringing a gun on school grounds is illegal, but that didn't stop him. And taking away lawful gun owner's AR's wouldn't have stopped him either.

Armed guards at the school might have stopped him. It probably would have deterred him. We have armed guards at banks, but not at schools. That's ridiculous.

 

Weapon of choice. Take it out of their hands. Sorry to say nothing is going to be done. Hey remember bump stocks.........still available in a store near you! That's the damn truth armed guards at banks but not schools. Pretty sad where we are right now. 

[Steuben Jerry]

4 minutes ago, Belo said:

quite a few members here argued to keep private sale loopholes in place. Convincing them that mental illness should be a right to disarm someone ought to be fun. 

I don't mind a NICS check for person to person sales. Heck If I buy a used gun at a store I have to do that.

I don't see why I have to pay $25 though for an electronic transaction or even a 5 minute phone call. That's an exorbitant cost. If it takes 5 minutes to perform that's $300/hr. Seems a little high especially when the ATF is funded by taxes.

[Steuben Jerry]

4 minutes ago, First-light said:

Weapon of choice. Take it out of their hands.

I get it. But when AR's are gone and Remington 870's become the new weapon of choice, maybe those should go too?

[steve863]

19 minutes ago, Steuben Jerry said:

I get it. But when AR's are gone and Remington 870's become the new weapon of choice, maybe those should go too?

 

That unfortunately is the typical pro-gun response to everything.  I get it to a point, but I feel that if the pro-gun side can't at least come up with or agree to some safeguards that might make it a bit harder for a lunatic or someone else who really shouldn't have a gun to get one, then we will DEFINITELY have everything taken from us.  I would think as responsible gun owners we would want to think of ways this broken system could work better?  All I hear from the pro-gun side is that agreeing to even the simplest safeguard is one step before total confiscation.  I just don't buy that.  Yeah, the anti-gun side has an agenda, but why can't gun owners for once show them that they might have some better ideas than they do??  Do we always get our way with our spouses, friends, employers???  Hell no, I sure as hell don't, so why would I as a gun owner think that it should be my way only without any compromises??

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by steve863

[Culvercreek hunt club]

17 minutes ago, Steuben Jerry said:

I get it. But when AR's are gone and Remington 870's become the new weapon of choice, maybe those should go too?

That is really my biggest issue. If we gave in and said NOT "assault weapons", Background checks on all sales, Hell even a "you can only have 7 in your gun". It isn't going to change a thing becasue none of that is the issue. SO once they get what they want and nothing changes they go after the next tier. That won't change anything either and it continues to cascade. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

45 minutes ago, Belo said:

I imagine all 3 of my boys would react the same. Unfortunately for every parent like you and I, there are dozens who aren't raised around guns and in fact have bigger issues. They have no fathers, they're raised in bad neighborhoods, they're surrounded by violence, poverty and abuse. So like I said earlier, I agree that the family structure is a major contributing factor. There is no real way to fix it. To me it is almost as unsolvable as the nations drug problem. Drugs are illegal and thousands are dying every day from overdoses...

That is why I went to the firearms education in school. Seems like we push everything else there that the parents fall short on. 

[Steuben Jerry]

6 minutes ago, steve863 said:

That unfortunately is the typical pro-gun response to everything.  I get it to a point, but I feel that if the pro-gun side can't at least come up with or agree to some safeguards that might make it a bit harder for a lunatic or someone else who really shouldn't have a gun to get one, then we will DEFINITELY have everything taken from us. 

So why aren't we addressing the real common denominator here? Every shooter has been a nut case. And nobody is doing anything about it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

6 minutes ago, steve863 said:

 

That unfortunately is the typical pro-gun response to everything.  I get it to a point, but I feel that if the pro-gun side can't at least come up with or agree to some safeguards that might make it a bit harder for a lunatic or someone else who really shouldn't have a gun to get one, then we will DEFINITELY have everything taken from us.  I would think as responsible gun owners we would want to think of ways this broken system could work better?  All I hear from the pro-gun side is that agreeing to even the simplest safeguard is one step before total confiscation.  I just don't buy that.  Yeah, the anti-gun side has an agenda, but why can't gun owners for once show them that they might have some better ideas than they do??  Do we always get our way with our spouses, friends, employers???  Hell no, I sure as hell don't, so why would I as a gun owner think that it should be my way only without any compromises??

 

 

 

I would like automatic death penalty for ANY crime using a gun. Even if not fired. Of course I'd also like to see the one appeal and done scenario too. I don't have a problem with background checks on everything.  And since we are going national background checks I also would like to see national reciprocity to CC. The background I went through on my NY pistol permit I really didn't have an issue with. I could buy a national pistol permitting. Then that license IS my background check. As long as I possess that in good standing I should be able to buy over the counter. 

[ADK Native]

I have been reading many of the comments on this thread that I started and make the following observations:

The AR is a semi-automatic rifle with a pistol grip, it is NOT an assault rifle.  Having had the opportunity to live with and had “rocked and rolled” with an M16A1, the only comparisons is cosmetic.  So the rational should be ban semi-automatic firearms? 

Mental health is a great problem in this country.  Look at how many people are on narcotics to help them get through the day.  Look at how many people are unwilling or unable to care for themselves and depend on social programs.  Look at how many people want marijuana legalized for “recreational” reasons.  Those who distribute and sell narcotics need to be executed or imprisoned for life for preying on the mentally ill to cause their deaths and destruction.  Drug addicts need to be sent to REAL rehabilitation camps with the understanding if they fail then prison is next.

We keep hearing about how more gun control is needed, but do not hear about getting more security at soft targets like schools.  When will the government and school administrators accept the responsibility for protecting children?

They say the murder was bullied.  Compounding that was an absent family support structure.  Sadly bullies are weaklings who are insecure, immature, intellectually deficient, jealous and/or incapable of fitting in so they strike out at others.  It is just not children.  Look at some of the vulgar, sarcastic and stupid remarks made by gun owners on this site when they disagree with someone. 

Sadly the gun control media and the supporters continue to advocate for more gun control laws.  So image if a killer takes a pickup truck and while hundreds of students are waiting or boarding busses then goes 50 mph down the side walk the injuries and deaths will make an AR look like child’s play.  Vehicles are all registered and licensed drivers do not have background checks for mental illness or criminal history.  

Civilization is a thin veneer with many sociopaths lying below it.  Bruce Lee said "awareness" is important in self defense.  How true that is because we need to do risk assessments for  our safety even in our homes subject to invasion by criminals.  I once read this statement at a gun store."Make love, not war, be prepared for both".  Make sense to me.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Wilderness
correct wording

[steve863]

5 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I would like automatic death penalty for ANY crime using a gun. Even if not fired. Of course I'd also like to see the one appeal and done scenario too. I don't have a problem with background checks on everything.  And since we are going national background checks I also would like to see national reciprocity to CC. The background I went through on my NY pistol permit I really didn't have an issue with. I could buy a national pistol permitting. Then that license IS my background check. As long as I possess that in good standing I should be able to buy over the counter. 

That is what we need.  The pro-gun side putting things on the table that just might work and put the anti-gun side on the defensive for once.  I am not seeing it, however.  All the pro-gun side does is dig in their heels and doesn't want to do or propose anything.  Everything is "one step before total confiscation" to them.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

8 minutes ago, Wilderness said:

Sadly they gun control media and the supporters continue to beat the we need more gun control laws.  So image if a killer takes a pickup truck and while hundreds of students are waiting or boarding busses then goes 50 mph down the side walk the injuries and deaths will make an AR look like child’s play.  Vehicles are all registered and licensed drivers do not have background checks for mental illness or criminal history.  

 

10,497 deaths from alcohol related car crashes in 2016 (doesn't count drug related) . 11,005  deaths from firearms in 2016

[chas0218]

On 2/14/2018 at 10:35 PM, The_Real_TCIII said:

I've already heard this kid was posting pics of his guns and knives on Instagram and viewing sketchy websites. At what point do the parents have some culpability?!

Until parents are held accountable there won't be a change, but one thing to note is he was 19 and considered an adult so in this instance I don't think the parents would play a role. I also think in this instance both parents are deceased.

[virgil]

Mental illness exists in every country in the world. These types of school shootings are a mostly American phenomenon. 

[Five Seasons]

1 hour ago, virgil said:

Mental illness exists in every country in the world. These types of school shootings are a mostly American phenomenon. 

many of those countries have universal healthcare. 

a fun site to play around with (good when actually using facts in gun debates).

https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate.html

from 99 -2016

14k firearm related homicides

22k fiream related suicides (44k total)

 

throw in the opiod crisis and tell me our citizens aren't suffering 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Belo

[virgil]

Exactly. So, we site mental illness in these cases, but don’t want to address our broken healthcare system because we don’t want to consider the type of system used in the rest of the industrial world. And, we pretend that easy access to guns is not part of the problem. 

[chas0218]

4 hours ago, First-light said:

It won't stop them. Like you said it will be done with something else but....with less of an impact. We all know what an AR 15 can do in such a short period of time.  No need for it at all. You want to shoot one go rent it at the range. 

Yeah an ar-15 can shoot 1 bullet and maybe hitting its mark killing 1 person but what can 1 car do after people start fleeing the school where they can not outrun a car or truck. You can mow through people killing them just as fast or faster but lets outlaws cars because they can kill people too.

Again guns aren't the obvious problem it is the lack of protection in schools and the physcos that can get guns! Look at the European countries without guns what are people killed with? Illegal guns and cars. This could have been prevented but the FBI didn't step up, there were obvious problems with the kid and no one listened to the warnings.

Edited February 16, 2018 by chas0218

[steve863]

6 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

 Look at the European countries without guns what are people killed with? Illegal guns and cars.

We honestly shouldn't go there because the murder rates in just about ANY civilized country is considerably lower than ours.  Many have strict gun laws, too.  So, for those who claim that there are still lots of murders in a city like Chicago even with it's strict gun laws, what would their correlation be for these other nations with low murder rates who also have probably even stricter gun laws?  Do we simply have more crazies in this country compared to other countries?  If we do, how does it help matters having very laxed gun laws in most parts of this nation where these crazies have an easy time getting their hands on them? 

 

[chas0218]

4 minutes ago, steve863 said:

We honestly shouldn't go there because the murder rates in just about ANY civilized country is considerably lower than ours.  Many have strict gun laws, too.  So, for those who claim that there are still lots of murders in a city like Chicago even with it's strict gun laws, what would their correlation be for these other nations with low murder rates who also have probably even stricter gun laws?  Do we simply have more crazies in this country compared to other countries?  If we do, how does it help matters having very laxed gun laws in most parts of this nation where these crazies have an easy time getting their hands on them? 

 

If you look at the ratio it is actually lower in the states with guns. You can't just compare the numbers.

[Robhuntandfish]

3 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

10,497 deaths from alcohol related car crashes in 2016 (doesn't count drug related) . 11,005  deaths from firearms in 2016

Can move stats anyway anyone likes - those are correct - problem is 65% of deaths by firearms are from suicide.