17 killed in shooting at high school in Parkland, Florida, authorities say

[chas0218]

12 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Can move stats anyway anyone likes - those are correct - problem is 65% of deaths by firearms are from suicide.  

Not that I like that number but proves a big point. Basically media playing a very large role. How about all the other "school shootings" so far this year that haven't made the media?

Edited February 16, 2018 by chas0218

[Culvercreek hunt club]

16 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Can move stats anyway anyone likes - those are correct - problem is 65% of deaths by firearms are from suicide.  

and the deaths of the driver in the alcohol related crashes are in that number too. 

[Robhuntandfish]

  an overall thought on this

  Society has changed and there is no going back.  There will never be a reduction in firearm legislation it will only go one way.  With less of society being into outdoor and shooting sports this trend will only continue for increased legislation , it will go the way of changing culture whether we like it or not. A parent that has to worry everyday about sending their child to school could care less whether you get to shoot a deer or not.  

We have increased protections for all sporting events, concerts, banks etc we need to do the same with schools.  I know if my district came out with a voted proposal to have an armed guard and increased security at each school I would be more than willing to pay the extra school tax and I believe most would.  A bus costs $140,000 , for the price of 2 buses can probably have an armed guard for each school at the district i live in and one double door entry with a metal detector.  For this i am in. 

Also the cat is out of the bag and there is no going back on media coverage.  It is no longer the 50's and the media will cover every event with full coverage on a 24 hour news cycle.  For the people that say that the media shouldnt cover these things and glorifiy it, those days are long gone youre being naive. The first thing I did was go to the TV when I heard of this as we all did.  It flooded social media and it will every time.  The network that doesnt cover it is the one that goes out of business. 

Also the culture has changed.  With the onset of social media every ones voice is out there.  Children/adolescents are now to be heard instead of seen as back in our days.  Your parents spoke for you - not today.  These troubled youth that have the feelings of being ignored by society or not accepted will somehow look to be noticed.  Add in family instability, mental questions and the knowledge of internet makes for a potential bad mix for someone looking to do harm. 

We live in a free society and with a free society there comes dangers.  As it has been said the US has the school shooting issues- then why is that. It is an offset of a free society and the cultural changes we have seen.  Under a dictatorship people and families are under oppression and the issues they face on a daily basis are survival.  When faced with this there isnt time to feel or the ablitity or the change in culture that have caused us to see an increase in episodes like this.  Do we want to give up a free society for the perils it brings?  As we always state whenever there is a terrorist act- to go back out and enjoy doing what you do or they have won.  Live your life the same or they have won. All we can do is protect ourselves more- planes security - sporting events etc.  This also needs to occur at the schools.  There havent been the occurrances of these mass shootings at larger city schools - why - they have metal detectors and guards at each door.  Where have these occurred - mostly smaller towns and districts that do not.  It would be money well spent to secure our schools.  It has seemed to be a last place that we want to give up our innocence for, when really right now it needs to be our first.  Short of home school through the internet (which will be next) this is the only option. 

Everyone says if guns are banned then people will just use knives and vehicles and anything else they can come up with and this may be true.  But to the optics of the average American seeing a 19 year old with an assault rifle go into yet another school only makes us all have fear.   It has been shown you cant effetively ban guns.  It has been shown you cannot predict the mental state of everyone in the nation.  So therefore protection for our children needs to come right at the point of danger.  With all the money the govt takes from us for taxes and spends on  worthless programs lets redirect enough to protect people while they are at school as it should be.  There is an armed guard at every social security office and every bank but not at the schools????  ....this is the only feasable reaction i can come up with on how to stop this.  I am in the line of turning in all firearms if this would solve the problem, but we all know it will not.  

the bottom line is we still need to send children to school and there will always be people that look to do others harm no matter how many laws are passed.  It high time to protect instead of legislate. 

 

 

[Five Seasons]

2 hours ago, virgil said:

Exactly. So, we site mental illness in these cases, but don’t want to address our broken healthcare system because we don’t want to consider the type of system used in the rest of the industrial world. And, we pretend that easy access to guns is not part of the problem. 

which is why i posted what i did earlier in the thread. My beef with my republican party is that  they DON'T address our healthcare system

1 hour ago, steve863 said:

We honestly shouldn't go there because the murder rates in just about ANY civilized country is considerably lower than ours.  Many have strict gun laws, too.  So, for those who claim that there are still lots of murders in a city like Chicago even with it's strict gun laws, what would their correlation be for these other nations with low murder rates who also have probably even stricter gun laws?  Do we simply have more crazies in this country compared to other countries?  If we do, how does it help matters having very laxed gun laws in most parts of this nation where these crazies have an easy time getting their hands on them? 

 

The sheer size, geography and cultural diversity of america are some of our greatest asets. But they also create a lot of conflicts. Watching the olympics really illustrated this to me. All these other countries are text book demographics. All the northern countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway... they all look the same. Pale white folks. All the Asian countries are all very Asian. Then there's america where all races and creeds are represented.

Thing is (and nobody should be surprised by this) not all cultures agree on how things should be done and thus conflict. Slavery was not that long ago, but there is an entire race that was plopped here. Latinos have made their way into the culture. Irish and Italians still have beef. And when all of those Christian races see a new religion show up? Well it's on! Or that same group feels threatened by trans or gay people? It's on. It breeds hate. It's why many cities have cultural districts. It's sad that this is the case, but the conflicts go back as far time to the middle east. Two groups with differing opinions has created countless bloodshed. America is just one modern version of cultures who don't always agree. And sometimes the easiest way to decide on who belongs to which side is by their looks. It's like an old school battle uniform.

We were founded on the principal of being able to defend ourselves from tyranny and cultures that DO want to take over. So we were damn sure going to arm ourselves. Fact of the matter is that this great nation is more divided than ever. Hell, gun owners in the south and north see themselves as a sub culture. If you own a gun, you belong to "this group". And it furthers the divide and then no compromise is made, the government can't get shit done and we go forward with nothing ever changing.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

2 hours ago, Belo said:

many of those countries have universal healthcare. 

a fun site to play around with (good when actually using facts in gun debates).

https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate.html

from 99 -2016

14k firearm related homicides

22k fiream related suicides (44k total)

 

throw in the opiod crisis and tell me our citizens aren't suffering 

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s

Also a good one. Table 20 is the one to look for in each year. That is homicides by weapon.

There are also tables that  look at homicides by sex, region, state, city and race. Very interesting but pretty stereotypical. 

[Robhuntandfish]

37 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Not that I like that number but proves a big point. Basically media playing a very large role. How about all the other "school shootings" so far this year that haven't made the media?

also an over blown number - the other school shootings are mostly criminal activity of drug, gang violence but get lobbed into "school shootings" and not mass murders.   can skew numbers anyway they see fit to sensationalize. But can also be more limited with better security. And better security isnt a social studies teacher with a glock. lol 

[chas0218]

39 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

also an over blown number - the other school shootings are mostly criminal activity of drug, gang violence but get lobbed into "school shootings" and not mass murders.   can skew numbers anyway they see fit to sensationalize. But can also be more limited with better security. And better security isnt a social studies teacher with a glock. lol 

Well the so called school shootings aren't always "school shootings" The left tweeted something about 18 so far this year and it couldn't have been more wrong. These shootings include a lot of incidents that have nothing to do with schools that are operating, some are accidental discharges.

Edited February 16, 2018 by chas0218

[philoshop]

The Leftists moved in over a half century ago to destroy the Social and Cultural fabric of our country. They've been successful on a number of levels, especially with respect to the indoctrination of young people, and now they complain about how successful they've been. And, of course, the answer is always more of their Anti-American values: "Let's just get rid of The Constitution...", for instance.

[Rattler]

And then there is the medication problem.  I'll just leave this here......

http://mobile.wnd.com/2018/02/media-ignoring-1-crucial-factor-in-florida-school-shooting/

[Doewhacker]

And then there is the stigma of taking medication from folks who think they know things. 

[Rattler]

Gary Bauer: "To me an obvious thing is for schools to have armed and trained security guards. It is not unusual to see armed security guards at banks because we don't want someone taking our money. Aren't our children more valuable? Instead, we 'protect' them with 'Gun-Free Zone' signs. It makes absolutely no sense for our children's safety to depend entirely on whether or not a maniac wakes up in the morning and decides to kill children in a 'gun free zone.' Guess what? Once the killer steps onto the campus of that school, it is no longer a 'gun-free zone,' and the only armed individual is the criminal. Why is this so controversial to the Left? Sadly, it is easier for a murderer to walk into a school with a gun than it is for a student to walk in with a Bible and attempt to give it away. The default position of progressives is to attack the Second Amendment and the availability of guns. Yet the percentage of households with guns has been declining for decades. Fewer Americans hunt today than did several decades ago. In fact, many schools used to have gun clubs on campus. Yet school shootings were rare. Logic suggests that something else explains this shocking trend."

[Doewhacker]

Not all medicine works across the board. And then the people who prescribe it, you know the ones who have first hand knowledge of symptoms with each individual, are responsible for doing their Effin jobs and keeping the patient safe as well as others around them. They screw up and people die. How about they get held responsible in these cases. 

This guy skipped out on treatment for a year and nary a word was said. 

[Doewhacker]

7 minutes ago, Rattler said:

The default position of progressives is to attack the Second Amendment and the availability of guns

And the default position of the right is to attack the left for making any suggestions on how they think they can fix it while simultaneously not providing any means to fix the root of the problem they had a part in creating (cutting mental health facilities) 

[Rattler]

11 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

And the default position of the right is to attack the left for making any suggestions on how they think they can fix it while simultaneously not providing any means to fix the root of the problem they had a part in creating (cutting mental health facilities) 

No true.  Conservatives are not the one's who changed the mental health laws in the past that made it difficult to have people committed.  They are interested in cutting waste and ineffective spending in mental health environs.

The means to fix the problem conservatives provide is vehemently opposed by the left, that being providing armed protection in the schools for the kids. (See my post about how Israel did it effectively)

As far as what the left "thinks" will solve the issue, we all know gun control won't, and that's why it's opposed.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Rattler

[Five Seasons]

if a dude is adopted, bullied and has 2 dead adopted parents, raised without a dad and is hearing voices... we need to stop pretending like there is really any thing to fix here that would apply to even 5% of the population. Vegas is very similar. 

If we fund mental health we're going to decrease the odds, but we can never fully prevent these 100% unless we go to some sort of armed guard system... that and the freaking fbi needs to do their job.

[ADK Native]

I heard today on a talk show that some students at the memorial event last night were chanting "NO MORE GUNS".  I can only wonder if any of those "NO MORE GUN" students bullied the shooter?  

So while they think they have found some justification in blaming a piece of metal and plastic for the tragedy, did any of them provoke it  or try to prevent it?

[Rattler]

Having the students chant "NO MORE GUNS" is merely more applied indoctrination from anti-gun leftists and politicians.  It's another example of telling kids what to think, rather than teaching them how to think.

 

[Doc]

We already have more laws than any one person can read. I am sure that there are enough unknown laws buried deep enough in those massive law book volumes that we probably have broken at least a few of them without even knowing it. And what has the result been? Every year, the number of mass shootings increase. Is that even debatable? Is there a law that can be added to the mass of existing laws that will reverse this trend? What new laws will make us all pat ourselves on the back and make this phenomenon reverse itself. Well history tells us that there is no such amazing piece of legislation that is likely to have any impact at all. The only thing that laws do is to deflect us away from the real root causes of these tragedies......but it does make us feel good though, doesn't it?

It also has occurred to me that if guns were totally removed, we have terrorists teaching kids and others how to effectively cause mass deaths without firing a single bullet. The internet will instruct a complete idiot as to how to build a bomb. Motor vehicles have been proven to be very effective at mowing down large groups of gathered people. There have even been some pretty effective mass murders performed using a lowly machete.

The problem is not the means, but rather the desire. That old saying of "Where there's a will, there's a way" is never so appropriate as it is with any form of violence that is growing in our society.

[ADK Native]

22 minutes ago, Rattler said:

Having the students chant "NO MORE GUNS" is merely more applied indoctrination from anti-gun leftists and politicians.  It's another example of telling kids what to think, rather than teaching them how to think.

 

I agree,  I wonder if at the memorial service anyone chastised those who bullied the shooter?

My view of public education is they teach children sometimes biased information, but do not help develop their intellects to process facts to determine the truth.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Wilderness
add a word

[The_Field_Ager]

7 hours ago, Belo said:

cant believe it took you to page 2!

Can't believe you erroneously raised the prospect of the shooter being white. Apart from being wrong, what was the point? How would whiteness have mattered ? I guess that makes you the original racist in this thread, page 1. 

[The_Field_Ager]

1 hour ago, Rattler said:

And then there is the medication problem.  I'll just leave this here......

http://mobile.wnd.com/2018/02/media-ignoring-1-crucial-factor-in-florida-school-shooting/

This, for my money, is the number 1 casual factor. Americas relationship with pills-for-ills is out of control, especially when it comes to depression or feeling sad. My non American friends are baffled by the US love affair with pharmaceuticals 

[ADK Native]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

It also has occurred to me that if guns were totally removed,

That is the pipe dream of the gun control advocacy who are unwilling or unable to accept the truth about the root causes of gun violence. 

When they tell me about outlawing guns I ask them why has not outlawing illegal drugs worked and in fact has caused many more deaths than firearm homicides.  I then put the icing on the gun control lie by informing them that the majority of firearm violence is caused by the distribution, sale and use of illegal drugs.  Either they stay smart and silent or make some ignorant comment.  Either way the truth does not change.  

 

[Doewhacker]

42 minutes ago, Wilderness said:

I heard today on a talk show that some students at the memorial event last night were chanting "NO MORE GUNS".  I can only wonder if any of those "NO MORE GUN" students bullied the shooter?  

So while they think they have found some justification in blaming a piece of metal and plastic for the tragedy, did any of them provoke it  or try to prevent it?

That’s what the white supremasist group that trained this guy said too. Blame the victims always works. 

[Doewhacker]

16 minutes ago, Papist said:

Can't believe you erroneously raised the prospect of the shooter being white. Apart from being wrong, what was the point? How would whiteness have mattered ? I guess that makes you the original racist in this thread, page 1. 

Using the term “beaner” is as racist as it gets. 

[Doewhacker]

18 minutes ago, Papist said:

Can't believe you erroneously raised the prospect of the shooter being white. Apart from being wrong, what was the point? How would whiteness have mattered ? I guess that makes you the original racist in this thread, page 1. 

And also he is white. 

Having been adopted his last name doesn’t identify his race. Duh