Interesting read in local NY paper...

[sits in trees]

                http://www.recordonline.com/_images/thLogoNEW.gif[/img]                    Dirks: Bowhunters hurt crossbow enthusiasts

          Published: 2:00 AM - 07/13/10  For the first time in decades, we may finally have the opportunity to legally use crossbows to hunt big game in New York.

In June, the Senate and the Assembly passed a bill that would give hunters in our state another hunting weapon to use. It still needs the governor's signature to become law, but before we celebrate what is clearly a step in the right direction, there's some bad news, too. It comes from the legislative efforts of a small body of well-organized bow hunters known as New York Bowhunters Inc.

For years, this group has fought against any crossbow use, arguing that the crossbow is not a bow. Instead, they say, it's rifle and could only be used during rifle season, if it was legalized. You can thank this merry band of hunters that have seen to it that you and I can't use a crossbow during the regular archery season.

For sure, the group does a lot of great work with our youth and veterans during the year.

It is for anything, as long as it isn't deemed by the group as a threat to the regular and late archery seasons. I might remind you that New York Bowhunters adamantly opposed a state Department of Environmental Conversation proposal several years ago that would have allowed a special "youth only" gun hunt the weekend prior to gun season opening. Kids encroaching on "our" archery season? Never, said the New York Bowhunters. And so it didn't happen.

They are for our youth as along as the youngsters don't encroach upon the sacred territory of the regular archery season.

We have special youth only weekend hunts for ducks, pheasants and turkeys, but not big game, thanks to the work of groups like New York Bowhunters. All this noise from a group that has at most, 4,000 members statewide.

So while many of us are happy to at least make the crossbow legal in broader applications in our state, we have more work to do. Overcoming the demands of the New York Bowhunters and allowing crossbows in the regular archery seasons is next.

David Dirks' outdoors column appears weekly. Contact him through his Web site, www.dirksoutdoors.com, or write P.O. Box 87, Westtown, NY 10998.

[growalot]

I'm not a member of any organization ...but to that I have no problem contacting the law makers and DEC to let them know I don't want cross bows...and I'm a bow hunter....It has nothing to do with encroachment of my season...but every thing to do with the unlawful sneaky slob "hunters" out there that would take up a cross bow when they were to lazy to put in the time with a compound or traditional bow...it has to do with a DEC that doesn't want to go after the same type of slobs that shoot a box of shells two days before the opener and think they are marksmen...yet come close to shoot ppl every year...The ones that now have a fairly silent "rifle type " weapon to trespass land owners properties with...putting the owners and family at risk...and poachers..well I had guys stop in a truck infront of my house one in the truck bed that used a compound to draw down on our Wht Sannan goats...gee if he'd had A cross bow I may never have had noticed enough to chase them down..could have shot from the window...Say what you will...but there are too many of those types out there

[Doc]

There's old sits out there trolling again. Your getting to be kind of a one trick pony ..... lol. It seems like your interests here are kind of limited ..... eh?

Doc

[erussell]

Geeze with all the seasons and weapons they keep proposing prior to the gun season there isn't going to be any deer left for gun only hunters, if I was them I would be pissed. ;D

[WNYBuckHunter]

I'm not a member of any organization ...but to that I have no problem contacting the law makers and DEC to let them know I don't want cross bows...and I'm a bow hunter....It has nothing to do with encroachment of my season...but every thing to do with the unlawful sneaky slob "hunters" out there that would take up a cross bow when they were to lazy to put in the time with a compound or traditional bow...it has to do with a DEC that doesn't want to go after the same type of slobs that shoot a box of shells two days before the opener and think they are marksmen...yet come close to shoot ppl every year...The ones that now have a fairly silent "rifle type " weapon to trespass land owners properties with...putting the owners and family at risk...and poachers..well I had guys stop in a truck infront of my house one in the truck bed that used a compound to draw down on our Wht Sannan goats...gee if he'd had A cross bow I may never have had noticed enough to chase them down..could have shot from the window...Say what you will...but there are too many of those types out there

: Yep, because someone thats going to do something illegal is going to let the fact that its illegal to hunt with (not own, you can go buy a crossbow now) a crossbow stop them from using it to break the law. Your logic doesnt add up.

[growalot]

Listen I'm going on the experience I've had here.... and let me tell you....stopping and trying to draw a bow on a deer in jacking situations is far harder than shouldering a rifle type stock with a scope and shooting a bolt....also shooting from a vehicle...then you put that with the "relative " silence factor...especially with trespassers...perhaps I live in the wrong area...and all the law abiding real hunters live else where in the state....ooops that can't be so...look at the # of poachers they caught in sting operations down state...I took my Rose colored glasses off a long time ago.... problem is ppl don't like it when someones willing to be vocal about whats really going on out there...gee the anti's might hear...well perhaps the hunting community should start cleaning up their house and stop turning a blind eye to this stuff...you all know one or two yahoos... as I call them... but more likely than not turn a blind eye

[Doewhacker]

I didn't find it an interesting read at all.... SSDD

oh and I don't approve of the youth weekend either, alot of us don't. Never had one before and don't need one now. All the bashing of NYB and what crossbow organization is doing any thing but trying to get their weapon legal to use? Are they going for a earlier open to the season, doing any thing for vets, or any thing for that matter? I am pushing for use of grenades during all seasons, its just easier to kill a deer with a grenade and they look cool too.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Listen I'm going on the experience I've had here.... and let me tell you....stopping and trying to draw a bow on a deer in jacking situations is far harder than shouldering a rifle type stock with a scope and shooting a bolt....also shooting from a vehicle...then you put that with the "relative " silence factor...especially with trespassers...perhaps I live in the wrong area...and all the law abiding real hunters live else where in the state....ooops that can't be so...look at the # of poachers they caught in sting operations down state...I took my Rose colored glasses off a long time ago.... problem is ppl don't like it when someones willing to be vocal about whats really going on out there...gee the anti's might hear...well perhaps the hunting community should start cleaning up their house and stop turning a blind eye to this stuff...you all know one or two yahoos... as I call them... but more likely than not turn a blind eye

How easy is it to cock a crossbow in a vehicle? What bout poking a 17+ inch wide weapon out of a car window? So before you start blurting out the typical NYB style "weapon of choice for poachers" nonsense, show me the numbers of people ticketed or arrested for poaching anything in NY with a crossbow. Just because you can hunt with one isnt going to magically make them the weapon of choice for poachers. Think about it, if you are poaching deer, would you want to limit your range to 40 or 50 yards at best? How about the fact that the deer is going to run after you shoot it? You want to be tracking a deer at night with a flashlight? Seriously, think about the reality instead of just listening to some anti-bs and spouting it as truth.

BTW, no rose colored glasses here, there are tons of guys that are slobs that bowhunt already, and I just dont buy into the notion that if crossbows are legalized, that they will cause all of these possible poachers that dont do it now to be thrown over the edge and pick the practice up. It just plain doesnt make sense.

[bpb]

What Dirks failed to mention is in 2009 NYSMLA & NYB proposed a youth weekend the week before teh SZ firearms season.

[bpb]

I'm not a member of any organization ...but to that I have no problem contacting the law makers and DEC to let them know I don't want cross bows...and I'm a bow hunter....It has nothing to do with encroachment of my season...but every thing to do with the unlawful sneaky slob "hunters" out there that would take up a cross bow when they were to lazy to put in the time with a compound or traditional bow...it has to do with a DEC that doesn't want to go after the same type of slobs that shoot a box of shells two days before the opener and think they are marksmen...yet come close to shoot ppl every year...The ones that now have a fairly silent "rifle type " weapon to trespass land owners properties with...putting the owners and family at risk...and poachers..well I had guys stop in a truck infront of my house one in the truck bed that used a compound to draw down on our Wht Sannan goats...gee if he'd had A cross bow I may never have had noticed enough to chase them down..could have shot from the window...Say what you will...but there are too many of those types out there

Like it or not your statement enforces the antis goals.

What your stating helps the antis push their message that hunters are lazy slobs.

Your opinion is not based on any facts. It's just your opinion and it is wrong.

The Xbow is not the poaches weapon of choice. Tell all the stories you want. Unless they can be backed up by a hard paper complaint from Law Enforcement , it's a campfire tale.

Attempting to get us to believe that a poacher is going to shoot a deer with a broadhead and then follow the blood trail, in the dark no less is a little far fetched.

Besides, we've already beat the poacher myth to death in other threads.

[Chevy]

How easy is it to cock a crossbow in a vehicle? What bout poking a 17+ inch wide weapon out of a car window?

Cock the weapon at home, it goes into the car locked and loaded. It can be fired from inside the vehicle through the window. That's why its the poachers weapon of choice.

Just more gunners whining trying to hijack archery season. 

[Doc]

Well, I frankly don't buy into the "poacher weapon of choice" argument, but poking a 17" anything through a window is not exactly something that would be much of a trick. At least not out of any of the vehicles that I own or ever have owned.

Also, while I am not much of an authority on methods of poaching, I doubt that there is any mystical requirement that cars or trucks have to be used in the commission of illegal taking of deer. Where the heck did that all come from? Most likely the only real requirements are stealth, silence, and a low level of character. The kind of weapon is almost incidental.

Doc

[growalot]

I brought it up when telling of the guys trying to shoot our goats from the bed of a pick truck with a compound...

By the way I don't have to drag out the complaints to the DEC...state trooper...nor the sheriffs but there have been many not do I have to bring out the audio tape of a conversation I had with reg 8 after the DEC officer said and I quote " You don't want to be the land gustopol do you?...when the guys next door nearly shot me out of my 16ft tree stand on my land before the offical season opener time...but then again they didn't listen on another complaint where they nearly shot me when I said" they are going to kill some one you wait and see"...It took two years and they killed a guy in their own party...so don't tell me about just stories and nothing to back it up....

As far as that sad and tired "the antis are listening" hot air ...well let them listen and know that there are law abiding  hunters out there willing to admit there are too many "slob" hunters and also willing to clean up such things and speak out about it when possible...I'd think they'd have respect for such  hunters...even if the hunting community doesn't

[Mr VJP]

Wow, where does one start here?

First, the Crossbow is less effective than a compound bow.  It travels less distance and carries less energy.  It is a close range weapon that limits the hunter's deer shooting distance.  Look it up for yourself.

2nd, It is no more accurate than a compound bow.  The skill of the shooter has to be just as high, and his weapon just as tuned as a bow hunter's, in order to score a kill.  It is also much heavier and noisier.

3rd, by not allowing crossbows, NY is losing a ton of sales tax cash, many new bow license sales, as well as a ton of new jobs, that would be created by allowing crossbows for use in bow season.  It also limits license sales to people that will hunt with a bow, but stops people who might try crossbow hunting if it were allowed.  This fact has been proven in other states that have allowed crossbows during bow season.  New weapon choices means new sales of those weapons and related equipment.

4th, Poaching is illegal.  Regardless of what is legalized for hunting, poaching will continue.  Allowing crossbows in other states has not increased poaching rates.  There is no evidence to prove any legalized means of hunting deer has ever increased the poaching rate.

5th, The youth are the future of hunting in America.  Allowing them a special day to be safely in the woods trying to bag a deer is an investment in the number of future hunters that will be buying licenses and equipment, as well as keeping hunting's political clout at a high enough level to insure it survives future anti-hunting initiatives.  There are not that many youth hunters, and they are not successful enough, to have a negative impact on your deer hunting.

6th, Any group that strives to limit any form of hunting, especially when it is done for their own self interest, is not doing the sport, or it's future, any favors.  It fractures the unity of hunters and creates an elitist mentality that causes friction among the hunting community.

7th, A hunting group that actively plots with state legislators against other hunters, is anti-hunting by very definition.

8th, If you fear legalizing crossbows for hunting, and are actively fighting their use, you should educate yourself about crossbows with an open mind, so as not to be played as a fool by any group that has less than honest reasons for fighting their use.  The leaders of these groups don't need to have any real qualifications in hunting, weapons or wildlife biology to get elected to their positions.  It's OK to question them and their motives.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

[Chevy]

Not to turn the discussion, but my experience with DEC and trespassers is that they(DEC) are not willing to do much unless you have some influence or pull becuase they want as many deer killed as possible even if the trespassers have to do it. That is how they deal with land access problems. Sad but true.

[fasteddie]

Mr VJP          "First, the Crossbow is less effective than a compound bow.  It travels less distance and carries less energy.  It is a close range weapon that limits the hunter's deer shooting distance.  Look it up for yourself.

*** The Bowtech Stryker has a maximum effective range of 60 yards . "Look it up" !***

Mr VJP      "2nd, It is no more accurate than a compound bow.  The skill of the shooter has to be just as high, and his weapon just as tuned as a bow hunter's, in order to score a kill.  It is also much heavier and noisier."

***The Bowtech Stryker is capable of shooting "softball size groups at 100 yards" . Call up Bowrech and talk to their technician ***

***The crossbow can be shot effectively with 30 minutes of familiarization / practice according to Ottie Snider the Media specialist for Horton . Look it up .***

***Heavier ? that's what bi-pods and tri-pods are for . Just like they are used for guns .

[Mr VJP]

The Bowtech Stryker costs from $1000 to $1500 and is considered to be the exception, not the norm, in crossbow technology.  If you wish to spend that much for a top notch compound bow, you will find it can do anything the Bowtech Stryker can do.

The Stryker has an arrow speed of 400 fps while creating 155ft. lbs of kinetic energy.  There are compound bows that will approach those figures.  The sales hype is not reality.

Anyone can be taught to effectively shoot a compound bow within 30 minutes as well.

Bi pods and Tri pods don't help when carrying a crossbow through the woods to your stand or while stalking game.

The above issues do not negate the argument about crossbows being allowed for hunting in my opinion.

I assume the rest of the issues I mentioned in my prior post were agreeable.

Many other states have legalized crossbows for deer hunting.  What makes NY special in regards to banning them?

[Doc]

Wow, where does one start here?

First, the Crossbow is less effective than a ............I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

Just to save us all a lot of time and bandwidth, let me point out that each and every one of these points has been addressed and either refuted or shown to be irrelevant already. We're starting into our summer re-runs again, and restating all of it will not make any of the points any more true or relevant from either side of the issue.

This apparently has been turned into an issue that is trying to be settled by endurance. What is it, who ever repeats the same stuff last wins ....... lol. By the way ...... Thanks sits ...... your trolling worked once again. You snagged a bunch of them.

Doc

[bpb]

Many other states have legalized crossbows for deer hunting.  What makes NY special in regards to banning them?

The same argument that was used to introduce the Compound bow back in the 70's. see the attached~

Actually they were never illegal as per say. In order to use a new hunting impilment it has to be written into law. Like the rifle bills.

Tom_Melkioty_upstate_story.pdf

[fasteddie]

This thread should be re-named "Redundant" !  : ... : ... :

[Doewhacker]

yup like I thought.. same s@!# different day (ssdd)

[Blargh82]

SSDD

[Culvercreek hunt club]

All I can say is LOL.....this is never gonna quit...I knew it!!!  but like a moth to a flame....I had to open it

[solon]

non-hunting question to DOC:

If Your role is moderator

Then -

  why would you say thanks to "sits" who has a decidedly one sided point of view ?

[Doc]

non-hunting question to DOC:

If Your role is moderator

Then -

  why would you say thanks to "sits" who has a decidedly one sided point of view ?

It is not the place of the Moderator (or at least not this Moderator) to dictate or censor topics or opinions unless they stray from the bounds of legality or proper language. I use a pretty liberal standard. I am not here to decide what sides of issues that can be allowed on this forum. I do enter into discussions and of course have my own positions and opinions. I may even express opinions on the quality of a topic. But what I won't do is use the Moderator position to force topic selection or opinion censorship......even with silly ol' Sits ....... lol. I figure that when people have had enough of him, they will simply stop responding. If they don't, then his opinions are as good as anyone else's.

Doc