Clarification of the Draft Deer Management Plan from the DEC

[wdswtr]

I think that the problem in many areas is over harvest. Alot of the state doesnt have the over abundance of deer that we have in the finger lakes.

Now as far a enticing more people to shoot does in areas that need it, lets say you are in your stand, you have an either sex tag and a nice buck (3 year old 8 point) steps out with a doe (3 year old, good size). Which one are most hunters going to shoot? The buck of course. Now if they only have a DMP, they shoot the doe.

Like Ive said before, its not perfect, but better control over number of DMPs for each zone is their intended purpose for changing the system.

That reply alone is the best point I have read on why they are proposing to take the either sex tag away.  That never even crossed my mind.  Not only would taking that tag away let that 8pt walk if your A/M buck tag is filled it also let that buck get bigger if it survived gun season as well.  So the scenario of the DEC fullfilling hunters request of a mature buck herd and them wanting better management of doe harvest gets them both in one deal.  Great point!

[Doc]

I've got to ask again.....Does anyone know of an area that is not regaining its population because of the does being taken by bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters? And I'm not talking about perception, but actual DEC stats.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I think that the problem in many areas is over harvest. Alot of the state doesnt have the over abundance of deer that we have in the finger lakes.

Now as far a enticing more people to shoot does in areas that need it, lets say you are in your stand, you have an either sex tag and a nice buck (3 year old 8 point) steps out with a doe (3 year old, good size). Which one are most hunters going to shoot? The buck of course. Now if they only have a DMP, they shoot the doe.

Like Ive said before, its not perfect, but better control over number of DMPs for each zone is their intended purpose for changing the system.

That reply alone is the best point I have read on why they are proposing to take the either sex tag away.  That never even crossed my mind.  Not only would taking that tag away let that 8pt walk if your A/M buck tag is filled it also let that buck get bigger if it survived gun season as well.  So the scenario of the DEC fullfilling hunters request of a mature buck herd and them wanting better management of doe harvest gets them both in one deal.  Great point!

It doesnt have to do with buck management, as you will still get 2 buck tags per year.

[sits in trees]

this thread shows just how diversified NY's hunting situation is. too many doe's here, not enough deer there, antlers too small here, poor habitat there, so on and so forth. does anyone really think the DEC has the ability to manage NY's deer herd on a region by region basis?

that sounds like like alot of extra work for a dept that is looking at being shrunk down now and even more so in the near future. i agree it's what we need in NY but could it ever be inforced.

and just out of curiosity have any other nearby states been able to micro manage their deer season with any success, i hunt PA and i can say first hand that they don't or even care to.

across the board rule changes are always going to end up in huge urinating contests, heck look at what it took to even get an early youth turkey hunt in NY.

[wztirem]

I've got to ask again.....Does anyone know of an area that is not regaining its population because of the does being taken by bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters? And I'm not talking about perception, but actual DEC stats.

The statistics are implied. In any event,a good exercise would be for one to compare the number of does and button bucks taken by both bow and ML hunters in a given DMU, the actual number of DMP's filled in that DMU vs the total number of permits issued.

Suffice to say the number of does taken by ML and bow hunters represents lost income.

[sits in trees]

wdswtr...God bless you for seeing the problem straight up...It has the possibility of leading to a real problem down the road...They are have a big problem managing on the whole....I can't see them fairing well with this suggested micro management.....

Larry please  the blame the NYBA thing ...not just from you...is getting old ...really...for one thing I know I picked up on that snaphoo ...right here on this site...and I have no affiliation with any organizations...just incase that thought floated through your mind

oh as far as the blame the NYBA thing getting old i don't think so Ludmilla......

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  Dirks: New York Bowhunters accused of deceit, selfishness    Text Size:  |  |  http://static.djlmgdigital.com/thr/recordonline/graphics/icons/icon_print1.gif[/img]Print this Article http://static.djlmgdigital.com/thr/recordonline/graphics/icons/icon_email1.gif[/img]Email this Article

ShareThis  Published: 2:00 AM - 07/19/11  During his debate with Jimmy Carter in 1980, then presidential candidate Ronald Reagan made the phrase, "there you go again" famous. The same phrase could be applied to the New York Bowhunters with the recent "Critical Red Alert" posted on their website in response to the state Department of Environmental Conservation's latest five-year whitetail management plan.  According to the Bowhunters, "This plan is a recipe for the dismantling of the archery-only hunting seasons as we know them today and it will have a dramatic effect on the quality of hunting during the firearm season as well."  Again, we have small and highly organized band of people who have little tolerance for any change.  The basic problem is that the Bowhunters believe the early archery season is their exclusive domain. They are against allowing a special youth-only firearms weekend early in bow season. They are also against having an early four-day muzzleloader season, such as the Northern Zone has had for years, because it runs concurrently with the archery season.  The Bowhunters are not above stretching the truth or not telling it at all. For example, for the proposed Southern Zone changes they claim, on their website, "If this DEC plan is implemented, bowhunters in 2012 will only have a five days of uninterrupted archery-only hunting season." The truth is that just in consecutive days alone of "uninterrupted archery-only" hunting, we archers get 35 days, not five as their website notes.  The DEC proposal moves the opening of the bow season up to Oct. 1, a full two weeks earlier than current regulations. That would give bowhunters up to 47 days of bowhunting during 2012 instead of the current 35 days. Under the DEC proposal, the first five days of the season, starting Oct. 1, would be bowhunting only. Then there would be a concurrent two-day youth-only firearm hunt and then four days — in selected areas only — of a new early muzzleloader season.  So, out of a proposed 47-day regular bow season, we'd have to share the woods for two days with youth hunters and another four days with early muzzleloading hunters. What's the harm for extending the opportunities for other hunters in an expanded archery season?  The New York Bowhunters have long been the frothing defenders of an archery-only bow season. They could care less about developing more opportunities for youth hunting when it infringes on "their" bow season.  David Dirks' outdoors column appears weekly. Contact him through his website, www.dirksoutdoors.com, or write P.O. Box 87, Westtown, NY 10998.

[growalot]

SITs I'm just going to come right out and say it you... IMO... are a sad ...insignificant...tiny minded ...little man...that apparently has a great need to fixate your your primal vulgarness on particular persons in order to.... what feel a sense of superiority?  If your going to make a Quote box and then try to dispute what was said ......at least get it right please....that quote was one directed to one particular comment from one person and specifically addressed to him....it was in reference  to the subject of lost tags in the plan  and the correction by the DEC and the fact I personally misunderstood it due to reading this forum...and by the way what you posted ....that article has no mention of tags...just guns and time lost to archery hunters due to insertion of gun hunting  in archery season...and nothing to do with what you put in the Quote box...and by the way I inferred he was speaking about NYBA....where he actually said a particular organization ...not naming one...and he corrected me in a civil manner ...justly( July 16th)

[Dave]

I've got to ask again.....Does anyone know of an area that is not regaining its population because of the does being taken by bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters? And I'm not talking about perception, but actual DEC stats.

The statistics are implied. In any event,a good exercise would be for one to compare the number of does and button bucks taken by both bow and ML hunters in a given DMU, the actual number of DMP's filled in that DMU vs the total number of permits issued.

Suffice to say the number of does taken by ML and bow hunters represents lost income.

Why do you say that don't we pay for both ML and Bow tags? This is how it was set up in the first place the hunters didn't make the rules the DEC did so now they want us to pay for a DMP. These benefits were why many hunters took up the bow in the first place, a better chance at getting a deer.

Dave

[Culvercreek hunt club]

So if I take away all antlerless tags from a bowhunters and ML hunters that they currently get automatically, and make them instead apply for a chance at getting one (meaning some will not), I am somehow improving the doe take?

I would bet in most areas thee would be an increase in DMP's to cover the loss of the bow/ML tags and the ones that would be replacing the loss bow/ML tags would be good for the ENTIRE season....That I think would be increasing the take....and increasing it in areas that would need it.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I've got to ask again.....Does anyone know of an area that is not regaining its population because of the does being taken by bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters? And I'm not talking about perception, but actual DEC stats.

The statistics are implied. In any event,a good exercise would be for one to compare the number of does and button bucks taken by both bow and ML hunters in a given DMU, the actual number of DMP's filled in that DMU vs the total number of permits issued.

Suffice to say the number of does taken by ML and bow hunters represents lost income.

Why do you say that don't we pay for both ML and Bow tags? This is how it was set up in the first place the hunters didn't make the rules the DEC did so now they want us to pay for a DMP. These benefits were why many hunters took up the bow in the first place, a better chance at getting a deer.

Dave

If you are getting DMPs already, you pay $10 for up to 4 DMPs as it is, and you will most likely be able to get more than that under the new proposal. So unless you are someone that doesnt get DMPs currently, you will be paying no more than you have been.

[Dave]

I've got to ask again.....Does anyone know of an area that is not regaining its population because of the does being taken by bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters? And I'm not talking about perception, but actual DEC stats.

The statistics are implied. In any event,a good exercise would be for one to compare the number of does and button bucks taken by both bow and ML hunters in a given DMU, the actual number of DMP's filled in that DMU vs the total number of permits issued.

Suffice to say the number of does taken by ML and bow hunters represents lost income.

Why do you say that don't we pay for both ML and Bow tags? This is how it was set up in the first place the hunters didn't make the rules the DEC did so now they want us to pay for a DMP. These benefits were why many hunters took up the bow in the first place, a better chance at getting a deer.

Dave

If you are getting DMPs already, you pay $10 for up to 4 DMPs as it is, and you will most likely be able to get more than that under the new proposal. So unless you are someone that doesnt get DMPs currently, you will be paying no more than you have been.

Buck, I don't understand your response. "you pay $10 for up to 4DMP as it is" What does that mean.

Dave

[WNYBuckHunter]

You pay $10 for the application fee to get your DMPs now, and you can get up to 4 of them.

[Dave]

You pay $10 for the application fee to get your DMPs now, and you can get up to 4 of them.

When I apply for my area they ask for a second choice and I don't have a 2nd choice. How do you get 4 of them?

Dave

[WNYBuckHunter]

You pay $10 for the application fee to get your DMPs now, and you can get up to 4 of them.

When I apply for my area they ask for a second choice and I don't have a 2nd choice. How do you get 4 of them?

Dave

I apply for 2 for my area on the initial go around, then after the initial draw is done, they have first come first server leftovers, and I go and get 2 more. If you draw for permits in the right zones, you can end up with 4 of them.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You pay $10 for the application fee to get your DMPs now, and you can get up to 4 of them.

When I apply for my area they ask for a second choice and I don't have a 2nd choice. How do you get 4 of them?

Dave

Depending on your area you can go get 2 more in the late issuing...total of 4. In my areas I go one for camp....second choice at home in 8H and got 2 more for 8H in tha later drawing. and then never had a doe within range...lol

[Dave]

You pay $10 for the application fee to get your DMPs now, and you can get up to 4 of them.

When I apply for my area they ask for a second choice and I don't have a 2nd choice. How do you get 4 of them?

Dave

Depending on your area you can go get 2 more in the late issuing...total of 4. In my areas I go one for camp....second choice at home in 8H and got 2 more for 8H in tha later drawing. and then never had a doe within range...lol

Guy's I apply for my DMP in 4W and the chances are low to begin with and there is no late drawing for extra permits.  Maybe if you are a landowner you may get a permit .

Dave

[growalot]

If you hunt the area I think you do WNYH...you didn't have the second go around chance...for they realized they had "over managed" for several years and that area had the largest decline in DMP's  over.... I believe.... all other DMU's

[WNYBuckHunter]

If you hunt the area I think you do WNYH...you didn't have the second go around chance...for they realized they had "over managed" for several years and that area had the largest decline in DMP's  over.... I believe.... all other DMU's

I hunt 8H, been getting 4 DMPs for years. Last year they didnt even give away all of the extras in the second go round

[wztirem]

I've got to ask again.....Does anyone know of an area that is not regaining its population because of the does being taken by bowhunters and muzzle loader hunters? And I'm not talking about perception, but actual DEC stats.

The statistics are implied. In any event,a good exercise would be for one to compare the number of does and button bucks taken by both bow and ML hunters in a given DMU, the actual number of DMP's filled in that DMU vs the total number of permits issued.

Suffice to say the number of does taken by ML and bow hunters represents lost income.

Why do you say that don't we pay for both ML and Bow tags? This is how it was set up in the first place the hunters didn't make the rules the DEC did so now they want us to pay for a DMP. These benefits were why many hunters took up the bow in the first place, a better chance at getting a deer.

Dave

No argument here. However, as an example, an area under AR restrictions that has few dmp's for gun hunters allows does to be killed with a bow or a ml for the cost of said license while gun hunters pay the ten bucks for a slim chance in the lottery.

Perhaps, the DEC intends to make us all pay for a separate bow license,ML license and gun license and the opportunity to kill a doe is a lottery for all such weapons.

Perhaps such a scenario may well be DMU specific. If this is what it takes to manage a doe population within a particular DMU, I cannot aggue with their reasoning.

The DEC has the authority to manage the deer population in any way they deem necessary and have encouraged hunters to respond to the recently submitted 5 year plan.

In any event, we will see what happens. The end usually justifies the means

[growalot]

Aaahhh...When you said you were looking at a lease south of harriet Hollister...I thought you hunted 8N....which up until last year handed out DMP's almost like 8H

[phade]

Heck, I've gotten 6 dmps the past few years in 8h...four on my tags and then two consignments. Plenty of does to go around in my neck of the woods, but that's also going to bring in the mz season here.

My hunting partner and myself have taken 15 deer in the past two season on JUST tags that we got via hunting (no damage or nuisance permits). Last year seemed to be the first year I've noticed lower overall doe numbers via unscientific observation in 8H. It certainly wasn't a huge drop, but it was noticeable...I'm sure it's still above the DEC objective.

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

Direction is to move doe harvest under DMP only.  While the draft plan doesn't say this, somewhere in this topic there is a clarification that bow/ml hunters will still get a tag, but it won't be the either sex / antlerless tags you have been getting.  I heard the same at a recent club meeting - DMP will become the only way you'll be allowed to take a doe.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

DOes anyone know when the 2011-2012 regs come out? Don't they post them just before license sales start?

[wztirem]

DOes anyone know when the 2011-2012 regs come out? Don't they post them just before license sales start?

On or around August 15, I believe someone has already mentioned.

[Dave]

Direction is to move doe harvest under DMP only.  While the draft plan doesn't say this, somewhere in this topic there is a clarification that bow/ml hunters will still get a tag, but it won't be the either sex / antlerless tags you have been getting.  I heard the same at a recent club meeting - DMP will become the only way you'll be allowed to take a doe.

I don't think it will be any better just look how they have handled the DMP in the past.

Dave