DEC new Regulations Buck only

[WNYBuckHunter]

What I was saying is ppl that may have hunted the northern part but lost out do to the lottery would with the new system...would now  not have a option of shooting a doe....and Bingo you hit the nail on the head WNYH...for as it stands  now this scenario has already played out over the years....guys that know they have a lower chance of getting tags in the area they normally hunt go for the closest highest chance area...we all do it....then does the DEC take this in to account when estimating #'s across the entire DMU? ...when the hear guys complaining they see no deer area they trying to gather the info to find out if it's a whole unit problem or a border problem?

I believe that before the DEC goes ahead with a implementation of a 5yr plan...they need to figure out how to gather and compile all the needed info much better than they do now...a glaring example of this is the lack of any reasonable harvest info gathering in this new plan.

Like I said, the only way to solve the issue you are talking about would be to break the southern region of 8H off into its own DMU, or combine it into 8M.

They have and continue to do research on all of the changes they propose, this isnt a research plan, its a management plan formed through research.

[steve863]

Bingo you hit the nail on the head WNYH...for as it stands  now this scenario has already played out over the years....guys that know they have a lower chance of getting tags in the area they normally hunt go for the closest highest chance area...we all do it....then does the DEC take this in to account when estimating #'s across the entire DMU?

I don't know about that.  Most people have a place or two to hunt if they are lucky.  I only have one.  If I know my chances of drawing a DMP are low in my area I don't apply anywhere else for it wouldn't help me anyway.  Yes, maybe I could get to public land in other areas but I don't like hunting public land nor am I about to try to find private land which I know is never an easy proposition.  So, I think for many people it's applying in their usual stomping grounds or NOWHERE else.  It would be nice if finding hunting spots where DMP are more plentiful was easy, but we all know that isn't the case.

[Geno C]

Their whole plan sucks!! Just can't leave well enough alone can they? Every time they make changes it ends up screwing the bowhunters!

im with you, leave well enough alone...

[Geno C]

The man isn't kidding.  They don't call him Doewhacker for nothing.  The DEC bestowed that title on him for having reported 152 doe kills over the years, while not having killed a single buck.  Well, he did shoot an antlered deer once, but damned if it didn't turn out to be a doe with horns!  These days he tears the buck tag off as soon as he gets his license and throws it in the trash.  A dedicated doe killer he is!

LOL!

[Doc]

Well, if you cant understand how the proposed system gains better control over what DMPs get issued where, then I dont know what to tell you.

What I can tell you is it has nothing to do with what implement is more effective.

Actually we have two threads pertaining to this same question of supposed control claimed by changing bowhunter and ML to the DMP system. I addressed this comment on the other one.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Well, if you cant understand how the proposed system gains better control over what DMPs get issued where, then I dont know what to tell you.

What I can tell you is it has nothing to do with what implement is more effective.

Actually we have two threads pertaining to this same question of supposed control claimed by changing bowhunter and ML to the DMP system. I addressed this comment on the other one.

Yeah its getting confusing going between the two.

[wdswtr]

Im not sure I even have the ability to follow this thread anymore lol.  Heck I will give it a shot anyways.  As far as the comment made about people who apply for a dmp and find the chances are slim to none and choose the next closet area is indeed true enough.  I am or should I say was one of those guys a few years ago along with 5 other members in my camp and atleast 6 other friends I know off of the top of my head.  I cant speak for those other 6 but I know that we no longer do it at my camp.  It seemed like a good plan but when it came right down to it in several years of getting a doe permit for another area we actually only ventured over there once to give it a whirl.  We decided that it was selfish of us to take the chance away from someone who indeeds hunts that area and wants a doe permit so we quit.  It seem it was more of a hunters bragging deal when all the buddies call each other and asked how many doe permits did you get.  It was like we won money or something and had to brag about it.  I think alot of this debate on the DEC 5 year plan and doe permits and such truly shows the breakdown of the stages hunters go through in their life.  Most of us if not all went through or are going through these stages and I think at some point we can all relate to these different feelings everyone has towards this topic.  Myself Im stuck in between the big buck stage and the just get out in the woods and enjoy yourself stage lol.  I do usually harvest a doe over a young buck to put some food on the table and to help justify the expense of my endeavors as a hunter.  Theres nothing like a backstrap on the grill anyways.  So now as far as the doe permits and the one buck tag I just see a better deer management across the state.  Its pretty darn clear to me that the areas with low deer ratios need something implemented to stop the over harvesting in order for these areas to recover and again become a prime hunting area for all to enjoy.  Yes I happen to hunt 2 of these areas and one of them was an area that was overpopulated.  I can remember days of watching a herd of 16 plus does walk by my stand and that was less than 10 years ago.  Now these past few years you might see lone does or a doe with her fawns and most days you see the same young buck or three wondering all over the place or I might not see a deer for days.  So with the regulation of doe tags in my area in southern tier where there are 4 other camps around me with a few thousand acres of state land that surrounds my measly little 75 acres there is about 25 guys that hunt this area in these camps hard.  Thats 25 either sex tags in one peice of state land that does not include the locals or the state hunters antlerless tag count.  SO let me take a swing at this and say there are at any given time 50 guys that bowhunt this hill wether it be the state land or private land that have the current opportunity to harvest a doe.  I have to think that is a majority of the doe herd on this hill.  If we want this area to recover a few years of no doe tags is a small price to me.  Now lets revert to the other scenario an overpopulated area.  If it is indeed overpopulated and doe take needs to be increased I really do not believe that anyone is going to have a hard time getting a DMP to harvest a doe in the A/M season or gun season.  I will end by saying there is a stage of a hunters life where he goes through the greed stage.  I went through it myself.  Its a stage where we have to have every dang tag filled and we need every tag we can get legally to fill it. A stage were every deer on the hil is my deer. A stage were if I dont shoot it the other guy will.  Looking back now I think too many were in this stage when we first bought this land and built a camp in southern tier and so were all the other guys on that hill.  Its a shame because not only did the DEC mess up and give out to many permits, we as hunters messed up even worse when we relied on someone else to tell us what our peice of heaven deamed fit and we followed pursuit.  Not only did the DEC decide they made or are making mistakes and need to make a change but we as hunters need to realize we did too.  We overharvested and we underharvested our hunting areas the DEC just gave us the green light to do so.  It seems that most of us hunters cannot or do not have the ability to make these harvesting decisions so I am personally glad that the DEC has decided enough is enough we need better management of our whitetail population.  Is the proposal flawless? Of course not but it is indeed a step towards the right direction and we cant move forward until the first step has been taken.

[Doc]

We overharvested and we underharvested our hunting areas the DEC just gave us the green light to do so.

Basically, we harvest what the paid experts tell us is appropriate. We are not the biologists. We pay the DEC to make their decisions based on what we hope are sound scientific principles. I guess what we are saying is that they cannot be trusted to do that.

My take on this DMP application to bows and muzzleloaders thing is that as long as there is a single antlerless permit being given out in any particular WMU, then the either sex tag in Bow or muzzle loader is appropriate in that WMU. Those areas where they have shut off permits completely indicate a severe and un-natural problem and there might be something there to be talked about. However, I have looked at the permit allocations across the state and have found only a few WMUs that have shut off permits. It is a rare case. Those very few special cases may have cause to nullify the doe harvest ability of bow and muzzleloader licenses.

[erussell]

I think the whole DMP system is stupid any ways. I havent drawn a DMP for 7s  for the last 2 yrs and thats where I live and hunt mostly. I have only got 7R DMPs and have to drive and hr west to try and fill them on underpopulated stateland.  I sat there last yr and had 13 doe standing in front of me on private land in 7s and no doe tag. The DEC complains about to many deer and not enough hunters and then cuts doe tags and has the audacity to raise my license  fees also. What a crock of snot. 

[bubba]

here in 6a and 6 c you get a dmp maybe every 3 to 4 years as you build up prefernce points.  So bucks only is pretty much the deal anyway.  I do get an antlerless tag for archery and ml at least until now.

[Doc]

So now they intend to throw all the bowhunters and muzzleloaders into the DMP lottery system. That now puts us in direct competition with the gun hunters for DMPs. I wonder what kinds of new and exciting problems that will cause.

I've always wondered how they work out the odds such that the late applicants have the same odds as the early applicants long before they have any idea what the final number of applicants are going to be. Ever wonder about that? Remember how there used to be an application deadline and the drawing didn't take place until they knew how many hunters were applying? Now with the instant drawing happening over a few months, how do they work out the odds that they apply to the drawing before they know how many participants they will have? Pretty confusing .... eh? Well, that question does not relate to the antlerless bow tags ..... or does it?

At any rate, whatever guesstimates that they have been using, the errors will be significantly increased with the massive infusion of a significant bunch more participants. and we know that they have errors because there are always follow-on begging to distribute gobs of permits after the close of the drawing. We've all seen the panicky news releases hoping that hunters will take the jillion permits that the DMP system has denied to many of the first applicants. And this is the system that they want to throw bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters into? The problem is that bow season will be well under way before they realize that they have screwed up and now are willing to simply hand them out like candy. Sorry ..... a bit too late for the bowhunters. It sounds like this competition for DMPs might be a bit stacked against bowhunters.

[nyantler]

So now they intend to throw all the bowhunters and muzzleloaders into the DMP lottery system. That now puts us in direct competition with the gun hunters for DMPs. I wonder what kinds of new and exciting problems that will cause.

I didn't know that it was Bow hunters and Muzzleloaders (us) against the gun hunters...

[G-Man]

Wouldn't your chances remian the same for a dmp? they would be valid during all seasons. the real question is if they give a buck only tag for bow, and you get a buck only tag for regular gun. and presently if you also buy muzzleloader you get an anterless tag. so if they want all antlerless on dmp and i buy all tags do i get another buck tag for muzzleloader? giving me 3 buck for the year?.... yeah that will help the age structure.... :

[Dave]

Wouldn't your chances remian the same for a dmp? they would be valid during all seasons. the real question is if they give a buck only tag for bow, and you get a buck only tag for regular gun. and presently if you also buy muzzleloader you get an anterless tag. so if they want all antlerless on dmp and i buy all tags do i get another buck tag for muzzleloader? giving me 3 buck for the year?.... yeah that will help the age structure.... :

G-Man very good point. Will they issue 3 buck tags? If so I don't think it will help the buck to doe ratio or help the buck population rebound.

Dave

[G-Man]

or if i buy all my tags do i get a doe tag automatically?... or 1 buck tag and 2 automatic doe tags??  i really don't think this was thought thru to well for those of us that buy a super sportsman....

[growalot]

I would think...seeing they have already tied archery to ML with the either or tag ...it will remain the same,with this being the case....if you buy both...you get a buck tag for archery or muzzle....as well as being able to use reg buck tag in muzzle if they weren't used in first two seasons....Then you'll draw for DMPs to be used in any of the three seasons...

Now if you are archery only...or muzzle only...you'll get a buck tag...and be in drawing for DMP's....so ML is just going to be a catch all season...mop up as it were for the first two...like they plan on using it in high density areas during archery....my best guess :-\

[Doc]

So now they intend to throw all the bowhunters and muzzleloaders into the DMP lottery system. That now puts us in direct competition with the gun hunters for DMPs. I wonder what kinds of new and exciting problems that will cause.

I didn't know that it was Bow hunters and Muzzleloaders (us) against the gun hunters...

Yes, whether you like it or not this proposal does put bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters in competition for DMPs with the regular season hunters where such a competition never existed before.

[Doc]

Wouldn't your chances remian the same for a dmp? they would be valid during all seasons. the real question is if they give a buck only tag for bow, and you get a buck only tag for regular gun. and presently if you also buy muzzleloader you get an anterless tag. so if they want all antlerless on dmp and i buy all tags do i get another buck tag for muzzleloader? giving me 3 buck for the year?.... yeah that will help the age structure.... :

Well, they haven't exactly made that clear have they? Are separate draws proposed for each different season or would the permit lottery be done for each hunter only? And how about those post lottery tag give-aways that has been going on for a few years now. That would be happening after the bow season was well under way right? It seems to me that bowhunters might just be getting screwed out of those for approximately half of their season or better. I don't know ...... it seems that the devil really is in the details - details that they haven't even thought of yet.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Wouldn't your chances remian the same for a dmp? they would be valid during all seasons. the real question is if they give a buck only tag for bow, and you get a buck only tag for regular gun. and presently if you also buy muzzleloader you get an anterless tag. so if they want all antlerless on dmp and i buy all tags do i get another buck tag for muzzleloader? giving me 3 buck for the year?.... yeah that will help the age structure.... :

You will still get 2 buck tags. Technically, your chances for a DMP will go up because they dont have to  factor in all of those use anywhere either-sex tags and can issue the  proper number of DMPs for each area. The DMP drawing would be when you get your lisence, and they would set dates to it, just like they do now. The big difference would be when the DMPs become available and what date the availability goes to.

Geeze, where are you guys getting this stuff from. Read the proposal and clarification, its all in there.

[WNYBuckHunter]

So now they intend to throw all the bowhunters and muzzleloaders into the DMP lottery system. That now puts us in direct competition with the gun hunters for DMPs. I wonder what kinds of new and exciting problems that will cause.

I didn't know that it was Bow hunters and Muzzleloaders (us) against the gun hunters...

Yes, whether you like it or not this proposal does put bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters in competition for DMPs with the regular season hunters where such a competition never existed before.

It does not. The drawings are based on WMU and for areas with low DMP allocation it will be based on preference points, etc. There is no competition involved at all. Its not who lines up at the door to the store the earliest.

[G-Man]

So. A buck tag for bow,a buck tag for regular,so what for mz? A chance for a dmp?....can't find an answer anywhere....

[WNYBuckHunter]

Just like now, if you use your buck tag in archery, you cant shoot one in late ML season. You will use your DMPs during late ML, which is the only difference.

[growalot]

Actually it's a big difference because the DEC is now defeating their own purpose...and I'll explain why...though it is so very plain to see...all of you think on this a bit...look back to some of your hunting seasons and tell me if you find this valid...

they are asking LATE ML to actually hold off on using their DMPS in archery and or reg gun for a chance to hit the woods in the cold windy winter week of DEC.... which is a double edged sword for how many of you filled your buck tags early and had just the one maybe two doe tags left and well the weather...the wife and kids....holiday gatherings work parties ....school plays and concerts...aches and pains the flue...list is pretty long...kept you from your grand plan?...so now the DEC says they are issuing more DMPS to off set the either or...and lets ask how many out of staters are really traveling here in the late season when they now... in many areas have a low chance at DMPS any was...... for the home ppl get the better chance..as it should be..well unless you own land...so your back to a good possibility of less doe being taken than they want this plan to accomplish

[G-Man]

Still no answer what tag do you get for mz if you already bought bow and reg season...they would have to issue you a tag when you buy your licence..another buck tag? Now is an anterless only valid anywhere in the state. But new plan puts all anterless in dmp's so what do you get for the money you spend?

[Doc]

It does not. The drawings are based on WMU and for areas with low DMP allocation it will be based on preference points, etc. There is no competition involved at all. Its not who lines up at the door to the store the earliest.

The competition involved is in another whole batch of additional lottery participants. It's just like any lottery, more participants means more chances to be rejected. From a bowhunter's standpoint those odds are significantly higher than they are right now. For the gunners, they too may see some extra rejections because of the bowhunters and muzzleloaders selection success. The fact that it is a "lottery" means there are some losers. I have yet to see any kind of lottery (including the DMP drawing) where everyone is accepted.

And also, you are ignoring what has become a traditional over-rejection rate with the now-usual freebies that don't become available until the lottery has ended. Typically that happens at a date that would be well into bow season.

So yes, just like any lottery there is competition with winners and losers. And unfortunately the bowhunters are left out of some of that as I just explained.