It begins again

[Hunter007]

23 hours ago, Jeremy K said:

That stand up comedian has as much knowledge on the subject as anyone that's going to chime in on this thread.

For what it's worth 

The guy been on some really cool hunting trips and knows a lot of famous hunters like him or not his opinion is listen to by millions of people .

[Jeremy K]

6 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

For what it's worth 

The guy been on some really cool hunting trips and knows a lot of famous hunters like him or not his opinion is listen to by millions of people .

I've been listening to him for a few years now , he's friends with Dudley who is top level archery coach. 

[Hunter007]

1 minute ago, Jeremy K said:

I've been listening to him for a few years now , he's friends with Dudley who is top level archery coach. 

And he knows Ted Nugent  

[Jeremy K]

5 minutes ago, Storm914 said:

And he knows Ted Nugent  

I won't hold that against him

[Hunter007]

45 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

I won't hold that against him

And Steven Rinella

[fasteddie]

4 hours ago, G-Man said:

. And I still dont uunder how when holding the crossbow up your resting butt on your leg , I'm not a contortionist.  

Are you nuts or a poor reader ? Sitting in a stand with the forearm on the rail or  bi-pod and the buttstock on your leg is no different than sitting on the ground doing the same thing with a shotgun when Turkey hunting . Try to visualize that .....

[G-Man]

Just now, fasteddie said:

Are you nuts or a poor reader ? Sitting in a stand with the forearm on the rail or  bi-pod and the buttstock on your leg is no different than sitting on the ground doing the same thing with a shotgun when Turkey hunting . Try to visualize that .....

My stand has elevated seat ,no rail and I do not sit shooting nor could i have my knee bent to rest stock on it like Turkey hunting. To have it resting on bipod would.limit how i could move and swing to get in position for shot.. fine in a blind , cant see it in a hang on. Your stands must have large solid or mesh floor.. mine are slatted and only 24x 32 . 

[fasteddie]

G-Man --- Okay , I thought you were trying to be a wise ass . That's my job . The Bi-pod I bought at Cabelas has a swivel top which makes it easy to maneuver .

[G-Man]

38 minutes ago, fasteddie said:

G-Man --- Okay , I thought you were trying to be a wise ass . That's my job . The Bi-pod I bought at Cabelas has a swivel top which makes it easy to maneuver .

I have mono pod works in a permanent stand,not in hang on style. 

[fasteddie]

44 minutes ago, G-Man said:

I have mono pod works in a permanent stand,not in hang on style. 

This is what I use . Bought them at Cabelas and they call them Shooting Sticks . 

[nyslowhand]

I got one specifically for the mfger's Xbow I have since the fore stock has a molded feature to accept the pivoting attachment end.  It extends 25-36", so it's pretty much a tree stand stick. DYK - You can use these shorter shooting sticks while stalking &/or walking to/fro the stand? Just adjust length and tuck end into your belt/belly area. Not perfect, but helpful when trying to hold your ~7# Xbow any length of time. If you use one of similar adj length, IDK but assuming you could use it same way up in a hang-on stand while seated..!?!

[Five Seasons]

15 hours ago, G-Man said:

My stand has elevated seat ,no rail and I do not sit shooting nor could i have my knee bent to rest stock on it like Turkey hunting. To have it resting on bipod would.limit how i could move and swing to get in position for shot.. fine in a blind , cant see it in a hang on. Your stands must have large solid or mesh floor.. mine are slatted and only 24x 32 . 

if you're standing, and the angle works, just prop your non shooting hand out like a chicken wing to brace against the tree. I know you don't want to admit to this, but it's not really different than any gun hunting situation with the exception of reduced range. While I can agree it's not as easy as some of us make it sound, it's still nowhere near on par with holding and drawing a compound or recurve, which is how this discussion started. 

[G-Man]

7 hours ago, Belo said:

if you're standing, and the angle works, just prop your non shooting hand out like a chicken wing to brace against the tree. I know you don't want to admit to this, but it's not really different than any gun hunting situation with the exception of reduced range. While I can agree it's not as easy as some of us make it sound, it's still nowhere near on par with holding and drawing a compound or recurve, which is how this discussion started. 

It is still a challange,  I do not find drawing my bow a challange its 52lbs, has 80% let off and I have not been busted drawing ever in 30 years of bow hunting. Moving into position for a shot yes. Drawing no.. same as you state above it's not as easy or hard in this case as some make it out to be.  Every piece of equipment has it's own challenges.  That in fact is the truth of it. As for full inclusion of crossbow and required bow course for it with the course required  I'm all for it .. without course I'd leave it alone.. jmo

[wolc123]

2 hours ago, G-Man said:

It is still a challange,  I do not find drawing my bow a challange its 52lbs, has 80% let off and I have not been busted drawing ever in 30 years of bow hunting. Moving into position for a shot yes. Drawing no.. same as you state above it's not as easy or hard in this case as some make it out to be.  Every piece of equipment has it's own challenges.  That in fact is the truth of it. As for full inclusion of crossbow and required bow course for it with the course required  I'm all for it .. without course I'd leave it alone.. jmo

If, by "busted" you are referring to the deer raising it's tail, snorting, and bounding off, then I can believe that.   The real issue for me is the deer that catch a slight glimpse of the quick motion required to draw the bow and transitioning to a state of "high-alert".   A deer in the alert condition is far more likely to "jump the string", than a relaxed deer would be.   To me, that is the biggest reason why the crossbow is so much more effective on live targets like deer.   It is a lot easier to hit an individual hair on a deer that is in the same place when the arrow/bolt arrives as it was when it was launched.    I have always practiced "aim small miss small", but that don't help much if the target moves during the flight of the projectile.     

With a vertical bow, after a few bad hits (mostly shoulder blades), I learned to assume that all deer caught a glimpse of my draw, and I started aiming for the lower heart to compensate.    The problem with that, is it moves your point of aim off the center of the kill zone, making it unnecessarily smaller.  That concern has gone away since I dropped the vertical bow and picked up the crossbow.   The slow motion required to position a crossbow has always gone unnoticed, and the four bucks that I shot with it have been right where I thought they would be when the bolt arrived.  That includes one standing broadside at 59 yards across an open hay field (second toughest shot, second smallest buck), one standing slightly quartering to at 15 yards on the edge of a corn field (second largest buck, second easiest shot),  one walking steady broadside at 20 yards in the woods (toughest shot, largest buck), and one standing broadside at 20 yards in a hay field (easiest shot smallest buck - bb). 

 The first and longest shot struck significantly lower than I aimed, due to my underestimation of the range.  Fortunately that bolt was directed into the heart by "you know who".  Had it struck center-lung where I aimed, the paltry 8" of penetration would have only made it thru one, and that would have made for a much tougher recovery.   

A big part of the crossbow issue centers on the fact that those who hunt "for the challenge", can not comprehend that there are others (myself included), who hunt for the meat.   For me, the less "challenge" the better, give me a quick clean kill every time (which is exactly what the crossbow has done for me).   Why should I put a living, semi-defenseless creature at risk just to "challenge" myself.   It reminds me of "catch and release" fishing, just a senseless waste of a fine food source.   Folks who want that challenge ought to stick to golf or video games.

[Hunter007]

39 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

If, by "busted" you are referring to the deer raising it's tail, snorting, and bounding off, then I can believe that.   The real issue for me is the deer that catch a slight glimpse of the quick motion required to draw the bow and transitioning to a state of "high-alert".   A deer in the alert condition is far more likely to "jump the string", than a relaxed deer would be.   To me, that is the biggest reason why the crossbow is so much more effective on live targets like deer.   It is a lot easier to hit an individual hair on a deer that is in the same place when the arrow/bolt arrives as it was when it was launched.    I have always practiced "aim small miss small", but that don't help much if the target moves during the flight of the projectile.     

With a vertical bow, after a few bad hits (mostly shoulder blades), I learned to assume that all deer caught a glimpse of my draw, and I started aiming for the lower heart to compensate.    The problem with that, is it moves your point of aim off the center of the kill zone, making it unnecessarily smaller.  That concern has gone away since I dropped the vertical bow and picked up the crossbow.   The slow motion required to position a crossbow has always gone unnoticed, and the four bucks that I shot with it have been right where I thought they would be when the bolt arrived.  That includes one standing broadside at 59 yards across an open hay field (second toughest shot, second smallest buck), one standing slightly quartering to at 15 yards on the edge of a corn field (second largest buck, second easiest shot),  one walking steady broadside at 20 yards in the woods (toughest shot, largest buck), and one standing broadside at 20 yards in a hay field (easiest shot smallest buck - bb). 

 The first and longest shot struck significantly lower than I aimed, due to my underestimation of the range.  Fortunately that bolt was directed into the heart by "you know who".  Had it struck center-lung where I aimed, the paltry 8" of penetration would have only made it thru one, and that would have made for a much tougher recovery.   

A big part of the crossbow issue centers on the fact that those who hunt "for the challenge", can not comprehend that there are others (myself included), who hunt for the meat.   For me, the less "challenge" the better, give me a quick clean kill every time (which is exactly what the crossbow has done for me).   Why should I put a living, semi-defenseless creature at risk just to "challenge" myself.   It reminds me of "catch and release" fishing, just a senseless waste of a fine food source.   Folks who want that challenge ought to stick to golf or video games.

Just wondering wolc if you were in charge of the deer season how long would you make gun season ? 

And all the other seasons  what would you change ?

For some reason I have the feeling you would make deer season 360 days a year .

[nyslowhand]

6 hours ago, G-Man said:

...... As for full inclusion of crossbow and required bow course for it with the course required  I'm all for it .. without course I'd leave it alone.. jmo

^^^ 2nd that! Unfortunately, when current Xbow season (and legislation) was implemented in ~2014 the way it was .... a disaster. Probably have to be a special Xbow license and the requirement that bow safety course be completed.  That'll make a lot of non-bow hunters that never took the bow course and still hunted w/Xbow for ~5yrs very unhappy. Same scenario if full Xbow implementation as a legal weapon for all of bow season gets approved. No way to "grandfather" them in since there's no evidence anyone actually used a Xbow, other than the ML license requirement or maybe a harvest report. NY legislators fumbled the ball back in 2014 trying to appease special lobby groups! Would be a whole lot different if the DEC were handed this hot potato from the start!!!!

[G-Man]

1 hour ago, nyslowhand said:

^^^ 2nd that! Unfortunately, when current Xbow season (and legislation) was implemented in ~2014 the way it was .... a disaster. Probably have to be a special Xbow license and the requirement that bow safety course be completed.  That'll make a lot of non-bow hunters that never took the bow course and still hunted w/Xbow for ~5yrs very unhappy. Same scenario if full Xbow implementation as a legal weapon for all of bow season gets approved. No way to "grandfather" them in since there's no evidence anyone actually used a Xbow, other than the ML license requirement or maybe a harvest report. NY legislators fumbled the ball back in 2014 trying to appease special lobby groups! Would be a whole lot different if the DEC were handed this hot potato from the start!!!!

It will but there is no way to grandfather in so they best be looking to take bow course. This is in fact the only legislation I believe will pass. Imo it should be bow required as aiming and tracking during bow is much different during gun.

[bugsNbows]

On 5/14/2019 at 9:37 AM, fasteddie said:

The carton that my Crossbow Bolts were in says "Crossbow Bolts" . Apparently you know something that the manufacturer doesn't know . 

Perhaps you should check out the manufacturers website... their terminology states ARROWS. Bolts is old terminology referring to crossbow projectiles that are short and do not have any feathers or vanes for steering. At least that is how it was explained to me many moons ago.

[fasteddie]

Did some checking . They are BOLTS . Victory makes arrows for bows and Bolts for crossbows .

https://www.victoryarchery.com/CROSSBOW/

[genesee_mohican]

On 5/14/2019 at 5:01 PM, fasteddie said:

Are you nuts or a poor reader ? Sitting in a stand with the forearm on the rail or  bi-pod and the buttstock on your leg is no different than sitting on the ground doing the same thing with a shotgun when Turkey hunting . Try to visualize that .....

So a small stick won't deflect a broad head tipped bolt and the wind will have little effect while one uses a crossbow and it will be like shooting a shotgun with a big shot pattern?  I wonder why the woods isn't over run with hunters the last two weeks of bow season?  I see fewer hunters out then and have to wonder what could be going on.

No offense bud, I just do not get your analogy here.  Good luck out there.

[fasteddie]

I know a few Gun Hunters who don't bow hunt but have picked up a crossbow and deer hunted with them before gun season opened . Two of them were successful last season . 

[fasteddie]

7 minutes ago, genesee_mohican said:

So a small stick won't deflect a broad head tipped bolt and the wind will have little effect while one uses a crossbow and it will be like shooting a shotgun with a big shot pattern?  I wonder why the woods isn't over run with hunters the last two weeks of bow season?  I see fewer hunters out then and have to wonder what could be going on.

No offense bud, I just do not get your analogy here.  Good luck out there.

What the hell are you talking about ? What does a shotgun pattern have to do with resting the X-bow buttstock on your leg and the forearm on a bi-pod , shooting sticks or ladderstand rail . When I use to Turkey Hunt , I would rest my shotgun on my leg that way when sitting on the ground against a tree . No problem . I was making a comparison as to holding both the same way . That way , either one is in the ready position . 

[genesee_mohican]

17 minutes ago, fasteddie said:

What the hell are you talking about ? What does a shotgun pattern have to do with resting the X-bow buttstock on your leg and the forearm on a bi-pod , shooting sticks or ladderstand rail . When I use to Turkey Hunt , I would rest my shotgun on my leg that way when sitting on the ground against a tree . No problem . I was making a comparison as to holding both the same way . That way , either one is in the ready position . 

 

Oh, I thought you were comparing apples and apples. 

I will say a well balanced shotgun across your knee or shooting stick vs a clumsy feeling crossbow is quite a bit different.  I'll also say, I don't care if someone bags some venison with a stick bow or crossbow . I'm glad they are able to get out and enjoy a successful hunt.  

Together we stand, divided we fall.

[nyslowhand]

3 hours ago, fasteddie said:

Did some checking . They are BOLTS . Victory makes arrows for bows and Bolts for crossbows .

... Yes, historically a Xbow projectile was called a bolt, but a lot of name brand Xbow mfgers refer to them now-a-days as arrows. In your defense Eddie I do see Easton/Beaman call them bolts, while Gold-Tip does NOT call them either a bolt or an arrow. Confusing!?! Over past ~5yrs bolts &/or arrows for Xbows has sort of become an interchangeable term. Same mfgering process, material, diameter, weight choices for vertical bow & Xbow use, simply shorter with different nocks for Xbows. Not something I'm going to get obsessed over, what to call my Xbow projectile. Tomato.. Tomato', Puhkahn....Peecan. You call it a bolt, I know what you're talking about if we're discussing Xbows!!!!!

Edited May 17, 2019 by nyslowhand

[Hunter007]

 is it  ok for crossbow to have some time in archery season sure why not but why do you need the same amount of time as vertical bow that limits your abilities more thus making it harder  which means you need more time to have a  chance at a deer with one that is  the reason the season is so long in the first place.  Just my 2 cents  don't have strong views about this one way or the other anymore fractly.  Topic seems to just keep going around in circles. Same stuff repeated over and over again .