NY Senate Committee Hearing

[SteveB]

If thats true then why such stauch support for the xbow?  I would love to know why you  fight for unrestricted inclusion of the xbow in archery season if you don't have a dog in that fight. i.e. you woundn't use it yourself.  come clean.

I fight against the xgun because I feel it would drasticly change the complextion of archery season which I enjoy.   

My reason is simple. The horse has long been out of the barn with the compound. The modern compound is but a distant cousin at best to the weapons that the bows seasons where started with - long bows and recurves. The compound and crossbow are more like big and little brothers with the crossbow actually being older by some several 100 years. To allow the modern compound and not crossbows makes no sense to me whatsoever. Either return the bow season to trad only or allow all archery equipment. Either is fine with me. Or baring that, make the use of treestands and shoot thru window groundblinds illegal in bow season so no weapon has the advantage of a hidden draw from the quarry.

That's as clean as it gets.

[Chevy]

I hear your arguments Steve, but why do you make them? Just board?  Sounds like it doesn't impact you either way. Unless there is some other motive you have not disclosed. i.e. I know one guy who argues for crossbow because he is a dealer. At least I understand his reason. 

[SteveB]

I make them because I feel there would be no impact other then allow some hunters to stay in the game longer. And I feel most all the arguements against are based on emotion and not fact. Ei: increaded poaching, flooded with slobs etc. I am a sales rep for a fireplace company - no profit motive or any way to gain a penny from their legalization. You and most others don't know me, but if I felt there was any negative at all, I would never support them for profit. Bowhunting is my only real passion and I would never do anything to hurt it for me or others. That really is it.  I have never met or corresponded with WNYBuckHunter, but feel his motivation is similar.

Thanks for the discussion without the rancor that usually happens.

[Doc]

Doc, if you are tired of this discussion, then stop commenting on it. You can stand your ground on your opinion all you want, but the simple fact is, NYB does not represent me, nor do they represent every bow hunter in NY. I am represented by my letters and emails that I send to my local and state representatives, and so is every other hunter and individual in the state. NYB can gripe about these issues all they want and spout all the misinformation they want, but if all hunters with an opinion contact their local and state representatives, the majority can prevail over the voice of NYB. You dont need an organization to do that. If you watch the video, the one council member states that the crossbow issue has by far received the majority of calls, letters and emails to the offices and the overwhelming majority of those have been in favor of legalizing crossbows. My impression is that things are looking better for crossbows in NY than they have in a long time, and that NYB may end up losing their fight.

Yes you're absolutely correct. There is no point in continuing this discussion. I have stated my opinion and I have shown that the only people officially representing bowhunters in NYS (including you), that have any impact is NYB. You can go on with your "if all bowhunters did this" and "if all bowhunters did that" all you want, but the plain fact is that the only ones that are dedicated to doing anything for NYS bowhunters and who actually are doing anything for NYS bowhunters is the NYB. Your eagerness to keep bowhunters in a disorganized state will not allow you to admit the obvious, so what is the point of continuing the discussion?

Also now that it has been pointed out, the link between the hostility toward NYB and desire to cram crossbows into the bow seasons is actually quite clear now too. I was wondering what was behind all this and now it is obvious that there are those that will put their need for crossbows above the need for organized bowhunters. I guess there is no need or value in discussing that. Might just be possible that organized bowhunting (NYB) is really better off without those people.

Doc

[Larry]

Here is the definition of a Cross Bow. This definition is out of the Webster’s Dictionary & Thesaurus copy rite 1999.  Cross – Bow: A weapon consisting chiefly of a bow mounted crosswise near the end of a wooden stock.Some of you should check the sources of your information and not just spout off the NYBH line of propaganda.  I’m one of the bow hunter’s the NYBH claims they represent and I have no intention of ever using a Cross – bow. I do know someone who has MS and I wish some of could walk a week in his shoes or try to walk in his shoes. Maybe your tune would change.

[sits in trees]

It appears the guys taking shots at NYB are the same guys who want to take over the archery season with their xguns.  Very transparent.

hey i believe you might be right, i can't wait to hunt in NY to hunt with my X-Gun. it's comin brother, just look around you

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, if you are tired of this discussion, then stop commenting on it. You can stand your ground on your opinion all you want, but the simple fact is, NYB does not represent me, nor do they represent every bow hunter in NY. I am represented by my letters and emails that I send to my local and state representatives, and so is every other hunter and individual in the state. NYB can gripe about these issues all they want and spout all the misinformation they want, but if all hunters with an opinion contact their local and state representatives, the majority can prevail over the voice of NYB. You dont need an organization to do that. If you watch the video, the one council member states that the crossbow issue has by far received the majority of calls, letters and emails to the offices and the overwhelming majority of those have been in favor of legalizing crossbows. My impression is that things are looking better for crossbows in NY than they have in a long time, and that NYB may end up losing their fight.

Yes you're absolutely correct. There is no point in continuing this discussion. I have stated my opinion and I have shown that the only people officially representing bowhunters in NYS (including you), that have any impact is NYB. You can go on with your "if all bowhunters did this" and "if all bowhunters did that" all you want, but the plain fact is that the only ones that are dedicated to doing anything for NYS bowhunters and who actually are doing anything for NYS bowhunters is the NYB. Your eagerness to keep bowhunters in a disorganized state will not allow you to admit the obvious, so what is the point of continuing the discussion?

Also now that it has been pointed out, the link between the hostility toward NYB and desire to cram crossbows into the bow seasons is actually quite clear now too. I was wondering what was behind all this and now it is obvious that there are those that will put their need for crossbows above the need for organized bowhunters. I guess there is no need or value in discussing that. Might just be possible that organized bowhunting (NYB) is really better off without those people.

Doc

Wow, you have outdone yourself this time. Now Im trying to disorganize bowhunters? Im doing nothing of the sort, Im encouraging hunters (gun and bow alike) to take a more active role in their government and let their voices be heard. Like I said, you dont need to be a part of an organization to do that. Try and spin it all you want, but my opinion is what it is and the motivation behind it has been clearly stated.

[TheHunter]

first and foremost I respect everyone opinions.  Personally I would prefer to see the xbow in the rifle season if its approved.  And if you are disabled, you should be able to use it any season.  I do not want to see this during bow season for regular hunters.  I think it does cause an unfair advantage.  You have a rifle type sight, stock, and dead on accuracy as if it was a rifle.  If you can aim with a rifle you can aim with an xbow and visa versa. 

[sits in trees]

first and foremost I respect everyone opinions.  Personally I would prefer to see the xbow in the rifle season if its approved.  And if you are disabled, you should be able to use it any season.  I do not want to see this during bow season for regular hunters.  I think it does cause an unfair advantage.  You have a rifle type sight, stock, and dead on accuracy as if it was a rifle.  If you can aim with a rifle you can aim with an xbow and visa versa.

yea your right you don't have many advantages with a modern compound bow, 80% or more letoff, bow scopes & red dot bow sights, trigger releases, all while launching arrows as fast or even faster than alot of todays crossbows?

[WNYBuckHunter]

first and foremost I respect everyone opinions.  Personally I would prefer to see the xbow in the rifle season if its approved.  And if you are disabled, you should be able to use it any season.  I do not want to see this during bow season for regular hunters.  I think it does cause an unfair advantage.  You have a rifle type sight, stock, and dead on accuracy as if it was a rifle.  If you can aim with a rifle you can aim with an xbow and visa versa.

Two questions for you. Does everyone that hunts with a rifle or shotgun hit every deer they take aim at? What makes a crossbow so magical and user friendly that anyone would be able to pick it up and use it effectively without a whole lot of practice? You are still shooting an arrow, at a relatively low speed at a relatively short distance (50ish yards tops). You still need every single bit of woodsmanship and skill to get close enough to a deer with a crossbow as you do with a compound. I just dont see any unfair advantage to them.

[Fairgame]

I believe we should have the choice whether or not we want to use a crossbow.  What season should we use it in? I don't know.  I dont't own one and haven't had the opportunity to shoot one.  There are advantages in a crossbow like being able to rest it on something for a stable shot, but I dont think it gives a hunter that much more of an opportunity than a bow hunter with a compound bow.  These arrows coming out of the crossbow are imo not going to fly further than a compound bow.  Hunting in the woods you are lucky to sneek any type of arrow whether it out of a compound or a crossbow through the trees more than forty yards.  Any more than that the trajectory of the arrow is not in your line of sight.  What you now think is a clear shot just got ruined by the branches that you couldn't see cause of the arch of the arrow flight.  I love my Bow season and a crossbow is not going to change it, But it would give some kids we are trying to bring into the outdoors the opportunity to hunt a different season cause of their inability to pull a bow back.

One thing I dont want is a longer season cause of the crossbow being added.  We already have a long hunting season.

[SteveB]

http://www.registerstar.com/articles/2010/06/03/columnists/outdoors/doc4c0734afc110d893809425.txt

2 quotes from the article:

"the biggest outcry coming from the New York Bowhunters, a relatively small organization that — as Columbia County Sportsmen’s Federation Vice President Jim Bertram pointed out when the meeting came to a conclusion — has less members on its roster for the entire state than the Columbia County Sportsmen Federation has in the county."

"A handful of NYB members stood outside the conference room, as did several people who oppose hunting all together. And, had I not recognized some of the faces, or for the signs the NYB were holding, it would have been difficult to tell the two apart."

[JCTheGC]

After researching.... My opinion.

Crossbow - 330+ FPS, Scope, trigger, dead on at 60+ yards.  Does not belong in bow season, OK for use during rifle / shotgun season.

Its not a bow, period.  It shares more qualities of that of a gun then that of a bow. 

[SteveB]

Compound - 350 FPS plus, scope, trigger, steady rests, up to 99% letoff (most are 80% plus),beats all crossbow scores at any IBO shoot where both shoot the same stakes. Lighter and far more manuverable then a crossbow and second shots are possible.

Not even a distant cousin of the recurve and longbow. Does not belong in bow season - not realistic, so let all archery equipment reconized by every MAJOR archery organization in the bow season.

[Doewhacker]

After buying a new bow this year I have to agree with Steve, compounds are better than crossbows. Very forgiving, quiet, accurate to way out, light, I have never shot a cross bow so I don't know about them but I feel very confident with my compound.

[Larry]

to JCTheGC

Here is the definition of a Cross Bow. This definition is out of the Webster’s Dictionary & Thesaurus copy rite 1999.  Cross – Bow: A weapon consisting chiefly of a bow mounted crosswise near the end of a wooden stock. You should check the sources of your information and not just spout off the NYBH line of propaganda.  I’m one of the bow hunter’s the NYBH claims they represent and I have no intention of ever using a Cross – bow. I do know someone who has MS and I wish some of could walk a week in his shoes or try to walk in his shoes. Maybe your tune would change.  I KNOW I HAVE POSTED THIS BEFORE

[Chevy]

Larry, maybe the truely disabled would have a better shot at getting to use a crossgun during archery season if the crossgun lobby and gun hunters weren't pushing for full and complete inclusion without restrictions as opposed to just pushing to accommodate the disabled. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Chevy, since I never got an answer when I posed a couple of questions to one of your fellow anti-crossbowers (is that a word? LOL), Ill pose them to you.

Two questions for you. Does everyone that hunts with a rifle or shotgun  hit every deer they take aim at? What makes a crossbow so magical and  user friendly that anyone would be able to pick it up and use it  effectively without a whole lot of practice? You are still shooting an  arrow, at a relatively low speed at a relatively short distance (50ish  yards tops). You still need every single bit of woodsmanship and skill  to get close enough to a deer with a crossbow as you do with a compound.  I just dont see any unfair advantage to them.

[Chevy]

WNYBH, let me see if I can answer your questions:

1. of course people with guns miss shots at dear. relavance?

2. the crossbow is "magical" and can be used with no practice one the scope is sighted in. same as a gun.

3. crossbow shoots a bolt not an arrow.

4. you need little woodmandship to hunt with a crossgun because you don't need to draw on the deer at close quarters.

Hope this clears things up for ya.

[WNYBuckHunter]

WNYBH, let me see if I can answer your questions:

1. of course people with guns miss shots at dear. relavance?

2. the crossbow is "magical" and can be used with no practice one the scope is sighted in. same as a gun.

3. crossbow shoots a bolt not an arrow.

4. you need little woodmandship to hunt with a crossgun because you don't need to draw on the deer at close quarters.

Hope this clears things up for ya.

So you are contradicting yourself in answer 1 and 2. It stands to reason that if people miss deer with guns and a crossbow is the "same as a gun", then the crossbow cannot be magical and giving that it has a much shorter range than a gun, and shoots a bolt (shorter version of an arrow with a different style of nock and slightly thicker shaft) at a much slower speed than a gun shoots a bullet, it would be far less accurate than a gun. Woodsmanship doesnt have anything to do with drawing a bow. Woodsmanship has everything to do with proper scouting, stand location, being able to get close enough to the deer to allow a good shot, scent control, etc etc.

So yes, you did clear a little up for me, but probably not in the way you intended.

[Chevy]

90% of the people who would use a crossbow in archery season if they were legalized would be perfectly healthy gun hunters. So if these new crossbow hunters had such great woodmanship why don't they participate in the archery season now?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Id be willing to bet that within 2 or 3 years, many of the "slob hunters" that pick up crossbows would end up quitting because they think it will be just as easy (which is completely relative) as gun hunting and they will be sorely disappointed when they discover its not. Either that, or they will work towards gaining the skill set that archery hunting requires. Many people just dont have the time (for a variety of reasons) that it requires to properly and consistently shoot a vertical bow. Now, I have never said that a crossbow isnt somewhat easier to shoot than a vertical bow, but it is most certainly not even close to a gun in that or most other respects. Face it, the only similarity between a crossbow and a gun is that the crossbow has a type of stock. Every other aspect of a crossbow can be directly linked to a compound bow.

[Chevy]

Are you kidding me?  The crossbow is the same as a gun except for the gunpowder. Crossgun has a STOCK, TRIGGER, SCOPE, IS LOADED & LOCKED, POINT AND SHOOT.

[WNYBuckHunter]

No Im not kidding you. There is no sealed cartridge, no barrel, they do not have to use scopes, and anything more powerful than a red-dot is pointless. Lets see what they have in common with bows, shall we?

Limbs? Yep.

Cables/strings? Yep.

Shoots an arrow with a broadhead? Yep.

Uses a mechanical release (trigger)? Yep.

Has a short effective range? Yep.

Can use a scope or red dot sight? Yep.

Sounds like modern archery tackle to me.

BTW, there is no such thing as a crossgun.

[Chevy]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Talk to ya latter.