NY Senate Committee Hearing

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Sorry guys...It looked perfect in Word when I cut and pasted

[Culvercreek hunt club]

http://www.hvqdma.com/nys-2009-deer-harvest-numbers/

[WNYBuckHunter]

chevy, you cant look at it that way, you are comparing apples to oranges. what you need is a chart that shows the number of crossbow vs vertical bow takes from 3 years before crossbows were legalized in Ohio and 3 years after. That way, you get a good comparison to what effect the addition of crossbows made on the Ohio archery season.

Remember, Ohio has had crossbows legal for a long time.

[Chevy]

You can't compare NY to Ohio because their gun season is very very short which positively effects the number and quality of their herd. What I can take away from their numbers is that they have more crossgun hunters than bow hunters. They might as well call it crossgun season. If the cross gun was added to the NY archery season the hunting pressure would double from gun hunters crossing over as would the number of deer killed.

Reduce the NY gun season to 6 days and then we can talk.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Hell...Chevy...you were the one that started quoting Ohio.

It is damn near impossible to get the pre cossbow numbers WNY. they have had it since 76. I looked because that is just what you need to see to make a call. The bottom line.. it is all about harvest numbers and DEC will adjust to account for any increases in take. It won't be a snap of the fingers increase to that many any how. The increase will be gradual. I have been unable to find any stastical information that backs up you claim Chevy that the numbers in the field would double. Do you have a reference?

[WNYBuckHunter]

You can't compare NY to Ohio because their gun season is very very short which positively effects the number and quality of their herd. What I can take away from their numbers is that they have more crossgun hunters than bow hunters. They might as well call it crossgun season. If the cross gun was added to the NY archery season the hunting pressure would double from gun hunters crossing over as would the number of deer killed.

Reduce the NY gun season to 6 days and then we can talk.

Now were talkin! (short gun season)

They dont call it crossbow season, its already named archery season, for good reason. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

It is damn near impossible to get the pre cossbow numbers WNY. they have had it since 76. I looked because that is just what you need to see to make a call. The bottom line.. it is all about harvest numbers and DEC will adjust to account for any increases in take. It won't be a snap of the fingers increase to that many any how. The increase will be gradual.

I agree, but such numbers would be the only way to make a real, fair comparison.

[Chevy]

Hey, we just agreed on something! Shorten the dang gun season. If the DEC wants to sell a separate crossgun license give them the first week of gun season after the archery season ends.

I just used Ohio to show you the numbers, that there are more crossgun hunters than bow hunters(at least the kills are more).

Therefore, it would reason the same would happen in NY which means double the present kill and pressure. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yes, we did agree on something!

You cant really say that about the double the kills and pressure though, the Ohio numbers only show that after 34 years, the number of crossbow hunters and archery hunters is fairly equal. You would need to know what the Ohio numbers looked like before crossbows to be able to make any comparisons.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

again Chevy your logic is flawed.....if you doubled the bowhunters in teh woods the take would only increase by 42%. comparing license sale vs actual total deer take. And I would bet the take percentage is less if you looked at bow stamp sales to bow kills

[wztirem]

NYSDEC stat... for every 100 hunters we lose in NY do to aging we only gain 55 replacements, something to ponder NY hunters..

We are running out of warm bodies!

[bpb]

That chart is hard to ear but it looks like 49k taken with crossgun and 42k taken with bow.  Again, that tells me if we allowed crossguns in archery season the deer take would double and so would the hunting pressure with gun hunters crossing over to kill those 49k deer.

Here you go pulling out probable numbers of what you think will happen. It’s like all those license sales and money the state would reap if the Xbow was made legal to hunt with. POOF up in a flash.

Ohio's Archery season is almost 20 weeks long compared to Ny's 7 weeks.

You forget that the NY DEC wanted to increase the deer take in certain WMU's because all those bow hunters aren't getting the job done during their season.

  You continue to argue using unproven numbers & myths.

You have yet to show us the "poacher’s weapon of choice numbers/proof".

Instead you have pulled the thread off track with disingenuous one sided mythical comments & choice data from other states.

You can not factually state that NY hunter’s will double the deer take if the Xbow is allowed in archery season. Many people will not fork over $500.00 plus dollars to purchase & to hunt with one. If deer take is increased so what, isn't that the objective to kill deer.

For one comparing NY's season's to Ohio is about as comparative as wooden shaft flint tipped arrow to a carbon fiber shaft mechanical broad head arrow.

Given Ohio's 20 week archery season vs. the broken up 3 week firearms season, its easy to see the Xbow harvest could equal or exceed other hunting implements.

Plain & simple, someone is afraid another hunter will kill a buck.  As it appears the numbers and continue bucks are safe for now.

          antlerless deer in OH was 167,355

          VS antlered 93,905

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=39iFAVRTRhk%3d&tabid=18781

 

[wztirem]

It is damn near impossible to get the pre cossbow numbers WNY. they have had it since 76. I looked because that is just what you need to see to make a call. The bottom line.. it is all about harvest numbers and DEC will adjust to account for any increases in take. It won't be a snap of the fingers increase to that many any how. The increase will be gradual.

I agree, but such numbers would be the only way to make a real, fair comparison.

The statistics will only become believable once the percentage of hunters reporting their kills increases. The formula which the DEC uses to estimate deer kills renders, in my opinion such statistics unreliable.

[WNYBuckHunter]

It is damn near impossible to get the pre cossbow numbers WNY. they have had it since 76. I looked because that is just what you need to see to make a call. The bottom line.. it is all about harvest numbers and DEC will adjust to account for any increases in take. It won't be a snap of the fingers increase to that many any how. The increase will be gradual.

I agree, but such numbers would be the only way to make a real, fair comparison.

The statistics will only become believable once the percentage of hunters reporting their kills increases. The formula which the DEC uses to estimate deer kills renders, in my opinion such statistics unreliable.

While they arent exact numbers by any means, its all we have to make any comparisons. The chances of getting exact numbers are next to zip, ever, no matter what reporting system you put in place. Still, the numbers show the general trends.

[wztirem]

My point is that we need a much better representative sample to believe the DEC statistics. All those hunters who fail to report their kills are doing themselves and all their fellow hunters a disservice.

[Larry]

I do not think you are going to see a big increase in hunter numbers or the kill the way the bill passed they can be used in the gun & the late bow, ml season. Also there noisy, big and clunky, hard to reload and cost too much.

[Doc]

I do not think you are going to see a big increase in hunter numbers or the kill the way the bill passed they can be used in the gun & the late bow, ml season. Also there noisy, big and clunky, hard to reload and cost too much.

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact.

As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody.

Doc

[fasteddie]

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact.

As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody.

Doc

Once the Crossbow guys get their foot in the door it will no doubt open the door to regular archery season . Wait and see .

[Doc]

Yes, I fully expect that too, and that is why I put the word "currently" in italics on my other reply. I have the same opinion that this is the foot-in-the-door law.

I suspect that is why the NYB has always taken such a "no compromise" position on the issue. So many times innocent little moves wind up setting precedents that are used to go way beyond anything that anyone expected or intended.

That's the same as the philosophy of the NRA. So many times I wonder, now what harm could that law do. But they have always understood that principle of "give an inch and they want a mile", and the idea of precedents and how they can be twisted to serve purposes other than what is obvious.

Doc

[sits in trees]

I do not think you are going to see a big increase in hunter numbers or the kill the way the bill passed they can be used in the gun & the late bow, ml season. Also there noisy, big and clunky, hard to reload and cost too much.

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact.

As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody.

Doc

you might have forgotten a few groups there Doc, the appeal would also be for people who like to shoot crossbows, (yea some of them might be rifle hunters god forbid), and older hunters who can no longer effectively use a vertical bow.

and using the argument about having to sustain the rigors of hunting with a compound bow are pretty weak, if you arent well practiced with crossbows you will about as effective as a vertical bow hunter who also hasnt practiced.

[Doc]

I do not think you are going to see a big increase in hunter numbers or the kill the way the bill passed they can be used in the gun & the late bow, ml season. Also there noisy, big and clunky, hard to reload and cost too much.

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact.

As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody.

Doc

you might have forgotten a few groups there Doc, the appeal would also be for people who like to shoot crossbows, (yea some of them might be rifle hunters god forbid), and older hunters who can no longer effectively use a vertical bow.

and using the argument about having to sustain the rigors of hunting with a compound bow are pretty weak, if you arent well practiced with crossbows you will about as effective as a vertical bow hunter who also hasnt practiced.

Yeah, I know ...... That's a good one ..... lol.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I do not think you are going to see a big increase in hunter numbers or the kill the way the bill passed they can be used in the gun & the late bow, ml season. Also there noisy, big and clunky, hard to reload and cost too much.

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact.

As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody.

Doc

If they are only allowed in gun season, they will have an impact, just not everywhere. There are many areas around the state that are archery only, meaning they see almost zero hunting at all because only bowhunters can get in there. Now, those areas will be open to anyone with a crossbow as well. It can be a great tool for helping out with urban or suburban areas with high deer density and lots of houses around. I hunt a few areas now that are bow only, and 99% of the time the friend of mine that hunts the area with me is the only other guy in that tract of woods, which is fairly large.

[Doc]

So, are you saying that you expect the city areas that you hunt to be now open to crossbows during bow season?

By the way, I heard that crossbow safety training will now be entered into the hunter safety courses as part of the requirement for hunting with crossbows. Do you suppose that stuff will be grandfathered in for existing licensed hunters or will there be a requirement to take additional training before you can use a crossbow for hunting? Has anybody heard how they are going to handle that part of it all? Any theories??? 

Doc

[SteveB]

Pure speculation and opinion here on training:

New bowhunters will recieve the safety traing incorporated into the existing course. Existing bowhunters should probably get training on crossbows - a one hour safety course would cover it.

I would hate to see the courses get bogged down by numbers if existing bowhunters are required to retake the entire course just for the crossbow aspect - there are too few courses now to add that strain.

[Doc]

That's why I was curious as to how they intend to handle that issue. I mean, for this year the season is only a few months away, and I would guess that nobody has even thought of the logistics of hunter safety training.

Doc