Our Biggest Problem as NY Hunters...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

From the ground up.

and one child at a time

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Word!

[Dom]

Dom, no I haven't. Are you talkin about the land by Thunderridge? Or is there some farther north?

paulie I was talking about farther north there is about 1000 acres some flat and some thats mountanous then if you keep travling north there is more

[Doc]

The problem is just exactly how do you reverse an entire cultural evolution.

From the ground up.

and one child at a time

Unfortunately we represent a very tiny minority in society, and no matter what we do, our impact will not turn around an entire cultural evolution. Along with that, some hunters will find that they don't have all the influence that they wish they had with their kids to even change their own little corner of the society. But even worse than that is the fact that we continue to lose hunting parents that will even want to try. I hate to be a defeatist, but if I am to be honest, I have to say that there is a cultural shift away from hunting, and all the best intentions in the world can't stop it, let alone "reverse it". We can hope for minor victories here and there, but I see all that as simply stalling tactics that won't even have a permanent slowing effect in the decrease of hunting, fishing, and trapping participation. To actually reverse it? ........ I can't even imagine a scenario where that could possibly happen.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am not prepared to say Uncle just yet. I will keep pushing it, taking kids out shooting, fishing, hunting. The only sure way that we go down and totally loose this tradition is to admit defeat and do nothing.

[Elmo]

Does anyone know the rules regarding bringing someone out hunting with you if they don't have a hunting license or safety certificate? I've been trying to get a friend of mine into hunting for some time. He wants to go out with me once just to watch and get a feel of it. He's just going to be a spectator.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Then have at it. The only time they (DEC) would take exception would be if he was actively assisting in the hunt. Example----you are doing deer drives and he is a driver that is not directly with you. THeir view is he is taking part in the hunt and should be a licensed hunter. I think there may even be some quesions like this in the DEC question and answer part of their website. I have taken many people with me.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

From DEC Regs

means to pursue, shoot, kill or

capture (other than trap) wildlife and includes

all lesser acts that disturb or worry wildlife

whether or not they result in taking. Hunting

also includes all acts to assist another person

in taking wildlife.

[Doc]

I am not prepared to say Uncle just yet. I will keep pushing it, taking kids out shooting, fishing, hunting. The only sure way that we go down and totally loose this tradition is to admit defeat and do nothing.

I keep looking for anything .... anything at all, that even has the smallest indication that things can be turned around ....... I can't find it. As I said, perhaps some minor, barely significant, stalling tactics can occur, but my sense of reality tells me that there will never be a reversal in the direction hunting is heading right now. I wish I could see it all some other way.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Im with Culver, I refuse to just give up as some others seem to do. I guarantee Ill leave more sportsmen in my wake than just one to replace my "number". Some just cant get over the fact that there is, and never will be one simple "magic bullet" to fix things, its going to take many changes and small victories to win the so called fight, and just leaving things the way they are now is not going to help.

[Doc]

Yeah, I sure don't want to be cast in the position of arguing that everyone should discontinue efforts to promote hunting .... lol. My comments are based only on the realities of my own lifetime observations and the resulting inescapable conclusion that overall cultural attitudes are definitely going in a defined irreversible direction. I am still waiting for someone to explain a realistic plan for changing what appears to be the inevitable.

I like the idea of every hunter bringing his replacement (and a few others) into the sport before he leaves it. I have brought in quite a few new people myself over the years. But apparently there really aren't too many of us hunters that actually do that because our numbers continue to erode. It's just another one of those thoughts that sounds a whole lot more effective than the realities and practicalities actually make it come out to be. That approach unfortunately requires the participation of a majority of the hunters, which it obviously does not have.

Unlike those that think they have a plan, I readily admit that I do not. I don't see one thing or many things or even a process or combination of activities that are likely to happen, that will begin to change the trend. if such a plan exists, I wish someone would explain it all to me so I can get on board.

[Elmo]

FYI: Called DEC and they confirmed what you guys already stated. You can bring someone as long as they don't help or participate in anyway. Also, from another thread. Chipmunks can be legally taken but if you're not on your own property you would need a small game license.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Just for my own information, Elmo.....how many chipmunks does it take to have enough for a meal...lol

[Elmo]

It was more of a curiousity question. When I was squirrel hunting last weekend I must've seen over a dozen chipmunks running around. Some within 10 feet of me. When I mentioned what I saw I was asked and didn't have an answer for them. I don't like not having answers.

[G-Man]

Well i for one have seen a increse of hunters not only at my camp but at work as well. Ten years ago i couldn't get vacation for hunting season as there were quite a few older hunters with a lot more senoritiy. five years ago there were only a handful of guys that hunted left that didn't retire and i was able to get my vacations. now they have hired more than 50 new men of which i know 15 that hunt all of these guys are 18-30. they have the same complaint i had when i started older guys that hunt get the vacations!

[nyantler]

Like you G-man our camp has lost 2 hunters to old age and gained 6 youngsters... so I guess we're up 4 guys just there.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yeah, I sure don't want to be cast in the position of arguing that everyone should discontinue efforts to promote hunting .... lol. My comments are based only on the realities of my own lifetime observations and the resulting inescapable conclusion that overall cultural attitudes are definitely going in a defined irreversible direction. I am still waiting for someone to explain a realistic plan for changing what appears to be the inevitable.

I like the idea of every hunter bringing his replacement (and a few others) into the sport before he leaves it. I have brought in quite a few new people myself over the years. But apparently there really aren't too many of us hunters that actually do that because our numbers continue to erode. It's just another one of those thoughts that sounds a whole lot more effective than the realities and practicalities actually make it come out to be. That approach unfortunately requires the participation of a majority of the hunters, which it obviously does not have.

Unlike those that think they have a plan, I readily admit that I do not. I don't see one thing or many things or even a process or combination of activities that are likely to happen, that will begin to change the trend. if such a plan exists, I wish someone would explain it all to me so I can get on board.

I wasnt specifically talking about you. I know a few guys that could care less, as they arent going to be in the hunting "fraternity" for much longer anyway. Every one of them always opposes every new thing that the DEC introduces or tries to introduce just because they think "their deer" are gonna get shot by some kid or that some new hunter is going to accidentally screw up their set. I dont understand why someone would be that way, I guess I wasnt raised that way, but they have every right to their opinions.

I believe its going to be a blend of many different things that will end up helping. Things like new youth opportunities, lowering the hunting age, state land improvements, education on deer management to encourage participation in habitat improvement, possibly coming up with some sort of incentive for landowners to open up land to others, etc would be just some of the things that, put together, could help gain hunters as well as slow the loss of current hunters. I also think that there should be a separate wildlife bureau that handles just the wildlife issues. That bureau should be run by people with biology degrees and experience in the field, not politicians. Like I said, lots of small victories combined.

[Doc]

About the most effective way of re-kindling interest in hunting that I can think of would require a bit of infusion of money into the DEC (probably not likely to happen .... lol). With these resources, new personel could be dedicated to a new relationship between the DEC and schools to develop programs where the entire generation of kids could be introduced to an appreciation of nature and all activities that are associated with nature (including hunting, fishing and trapping).

When I say that hunting is being weakened by cultural changes, I also believe that it can only be re-strengthened through moves against those cultural changes. We're talking official indoctination. That's not a new concept. Hunters have had their go at it and have come up lacking. Maybe it's time for another approach that is completely out of the box.

My feeling is that society is already all upset about child obesity and the fact that kids these days are leading unhealthy lifestyles. Everyone is already frantically looking for ways to reverse that situation. The time should be right to introduce some materials into the curriculum and assembly style presentations that would work toward making outdoor activities "cool" again for the entire upcoming generation. I realize that education is the hotbed of liberalism, but perhaps with the right approach, emphasizing the health aspects of outdoor activities, there is perhaps an opportunity to inject some of our own agenda into schooling and actually turn the societal evolution into a different direction.

Of course my original premise was that some new funds would mysteriously appear for this kind of DEC activity. That may not be too realistic. But my point is that coming up with programs that benefit those kids that are already involved or sold on hunting may not be as effective as trying to reach the whole generation of tuned out kids. If we can't get control of this societal move from all things outdoors, I really don't see anything else making any difference what so ever. Some how we have to pull our heads out of wherever they are currently planted and understand the magnitude and direction of the problem. We have to escape the tunnel-vision that we hunters seem to have, and understand that preaching to the choir (those kids that are already committed to hunting) is not cutting it. It's time to go outside our own little closed society and actively attempt to indoctrinate those who currently have no interest in such things. A presence of the DEC within the school system may be the only way to effectively do that.

[bubba]

I am sure it has been mentioned but if we stood together as hunters and accept the fact we do it differetly rather than join little segmented groups to protect our little niche of hunting, we would be much better off. Way too much in fighting to help the cause at all. Most worry about the decline in numbers, but few do anything about it. I would put out on the table become an instructor in either hunter ed or archery. If people can not get into a class, they can not hunt. In my area which is much less populated, I have certified approx 90 people this year doing classes which includes the class I have going on now. if a person tries unsuccessfully to get in a class for a couple years, they give up. if I can get that many certified in my small area, think how many could be done in a populated area. If we had 100 more instructors state wide who did one class each every year of 30 students the numbers go up. I have helped over the years 5 others to becoem instructors. I am doing my 4th class for the year right now, and my phone melted from the calls. I took in 30, turned down probably 50 more. Step up and do, come on it isnt that involved. Taking people out is a great thing. But if they can not get certified, they still cant goand be counted. I know I know time constraints it isnt for me etc. How will you know if you do not give it a try. In the 26 years or so I have been an instructor, I would dare say I have certified over 1000 people. Who is next?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Those are some great thoughts Doc, and I agree, kids should be educated about the outdoors and introduced to things like archery, etc in school. That would probably do some good as well.

Bubba, you are right as well. People do need to get involved and stop with the BS that goes on now.

[nyantler]

I agree there should be a more efficient way to get hunters certified... lets face it.. no disrepect to the hard working volunteers that do the hunter's safety programs... but we are not turning out rocket scientists here... 20 some hours of safety instruction a test and away they go... I don't know very many hunters that have failed their hunter safety course and been denied a certificate... I guess what I mean is .. those that get to take the short course usually get certified... I think there should be a way they could do it on their own and just take a test... maybe online... I know some of it can be done online now.. but I'm talking maybe doing the entire thing online.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

One thing that has fallen out of popularity that kept me very active in the outdoors....Boy Scouts....our troop was very active and the leaders were great.....it has fallen off now though.

Bubba ...I am very interested in becoming an instructor. How can I get information

NY....as fas as the online course....our company tried the OSHA certification thing on line....I didn't see the results. I know there were folks that did not do it themselves.....you can't guarantee that the student is the one taking the course....and some kids do learn better in a visual classroom environment instead of reading.

[nyantler]

One thing that has fallen out of popularity that kept me very active in the outdoors....Boy Scouts....our troop was very active and the leaders were great.....it has fallen off now though.

Bubba ...I am very interested in becoming an instructor. How can I get information

NY....as fas as the online course....our company tried the OSHA certification thing on line....I didn't see the results. I know there were folks that did not do it themselves.....you can't guarantee that the student is the one taking the course....and some kids do learn better in a visual classroom environment instead of reading.

I guess what I was getting at is that the classes aren't turning out experienced hunters... just people that have sat through a safety course and were able to retain the info long enough to pass a short exam. 40 years ago I went to a class that lasted 4 hours and left with a certificate to hunt.. I'm sure many of us here did... they aren't really any better prepared for hunting with 20 hrs than I was with 4hrs... so why not just let them study on there own and come take a test. If they pass... they're certified, if not, they keep taking the exam until they pass... saves a lot of time and resources...

[bubba]

they are not certified hunters when they leave class. And BTW, I have failed more than a few over the years. not safe no certificate simple as that. They are certified in safety, which allows them to purchase a license. Lots of people get a drivers license, but that does not mean they are ready to drive. I do not teach anyone to hunt. There is no time to do so. That has to happen after class. I have taken some out to the woods to get them going that way too. Culver go to the DEC website and there is a link ot download the application. Anothert thing that would help is lower the hunting ages. We are among the highest ages. Get them interested before they get all the other interests that come along now.

Edited October 6, 2011 by bubba

[nyantler]

yeah Bubba I think thats what I was getting at is they are minimumly oriented for hunting... with a crash course in hunter safety... so why not skip all the formalities and let them study on their own... then test at their convenience.. just like a learners permit. To get more hunters started on the road to becoming a hunter without the hassle of finding a HS class that has room for them.

Believe me I'm all for safety... just was a thought I had about making the safety certification quicker and more convenient..