Not posted land - fair game?

[wooly]

As for the DEC get caught once get a warning, twice and trespassing. I would question if that is the law or the way they handle the situation.

That's the point I was trying to make from experience.

Not to mention if you shoot a deer then get caught, have a fun time retrieving your deer from a pissed off landowner.

Also a deer was shot in my situation. I post this here only for others to learn from my experience whether they agree or not...it is factual information.

ECO only issued a warning and took pics of the deer. He said he would not have to confiscate the deer since no citations were issued.

[HectorBuckBuster]

On the insurance part. It is not needed unless money is changing hands then it is need. So if you lease land and and monetary changed hands say work or money then you need insurance. That is my understand on that.

[New York Hillbilly]

The whole story on the land owner being "protected" is not as it seems. The law protects landowners from having to pay damages by those who might sue them, but it does not stop them from being sued. I have a friend who is a landowner (as am I), and he and his elderly (now deceased) dad had to pay out tens of thousands of dollars to lawyers to represent them once, when they were sued by a hunter.

It was a heart breaking situation all the way around and I will not going to details, but suffice it to say that nobody won. Did they pay out damages....."no".........did they get sued........"yes"..........is that land now posted....."yes"........and since that time being chunked off and sold as building lots never to be hunted again.

For the record, I don't post my land because of "insurance". I post my land because it is my property, my backyard, and I invite those I wish to into my yard. It is a simple matter of respect that I would not cross your yard, sneak into your home, so why would you do it to me or anyone else just because our yard might be bigger than you think is appropriate. If you have some common sense, decency, and respect for others, the "law" would be irrelevant.

[KEVA]

I doubt the DEC would try to make trouble where they felt there was no need. I don't know your situation wooly, but the DEC must have felt it was reasonable for you to be on the property. When i was discussing the warning thing, I just meant to point out that the DEC does not have the ultimate say. They may successfully resolve the situation with a warning. However, looking at the law, I believe the land owner could forget about the DEC warning and pursue trespassing charges. I am not disagreeing that the DEC give warnings or with their decision to do so. Just saying that I would not bet on only getting a warning, I would think the land owner could make quite a mess for you.

[Hunterny28]

my brother had trouble with people ending up on this land. He had it posted the right way, but people took the posted signs down. Some of our neighbors talked to a DEC officer and he said land is protected up to one year if it is posted and signs were illegally taken down. So I guess its easier to check and get permission like stated above.

[nyslowhand]

Q. Must I post to keep people off my property?

A. No. Trespassing is illegal even on unposted property, unless it is unimproved, apparently unused and unfenced (or not otherwise enclosed to exclude intruders.) Even on vacant land, ........

Sorry slowhand, you are wrong :-)

Okay, I was wrong! Flog me! LOL

Not sure where the DEC gets off promoting the idea that it's ok to tresspass on vaugely defined "unimproved" land.

I'd be a littled PO'ed as a landowner (& real estate tax payer) if a tresspasser threw that stipulation back in my face.

Pretty much boils down to the people aspect.

What happened to common decency, common sense, courtesy and the respect for other's property & privacy?

Asking permission might get you onto a property.

Trespassing, well that's never a great way to get introduced to a landowner.

The adage "Better to beg forgiveness than......" does not apply in this situation!!

[Doc]

OK, Thank You Fellows, I think I get the idea :-)

Now, as a side note, how was hunting and posting in this state say 60 years ago (I lived in the city before I moved to the country side), was it also a touchy subject or people didn't really care who hunted and where and we just recently got more sensitive about the issue? I would appreciate the words of wisdom from the older "wiser" folks :-)

Thanks

Back in 1951, a posted sign in our area was a novelty. Hunting lands were huge and primarily owned by farmers who were way to busy to worry about chasing trespassers, and really had no interest in doing so. Also, a great many of them couldn't afford posted signs or the time that it took to put them up. All land that was away from houses and barns was considered a place to hunt and it was fine with landowner (no permission needed or expected).

Fast forward a decade or so, and you find improved roads and improved vehicles and improved wages that lured commuters out into the rural areas with the promise of cheap land, and lots of it, as the farmers rapidly deserted their farms and turned to the more lucrative jobs in the cities. Large tracts of land were broken into small parcels and filled with city transplants. With this new breed of landowner, fresh from the city, came new attitudes of possessiveness. Up went the posted signs and up went the denials of access. Every year since then it became more engrained in the rural societies. This idea of locking up land has become the established norms. Much of it has been driven by hunters themselves with careless hunting practices and a lack of respect for the property of others. Heavily publicized hunting deaths and near misses added fuel to the fire. Other abuses such as litter, fence damage, mechanized trespass with offensive sounding off-road vehicles and other abuses has solidified the attitudes of posting such that it is something that will never go away.

A new force has also been gaining acceptance recently. That is the new hunter/managers who have been impressed with the idea of growing their own trophies so they too can join the big-boys that they see on the TV that harvest these "manufactured trophies". I have seen the high fences, and the leases, and the large chunks of acreage that have been withdrawn from the hunting public with only a few "members" allowed to hunt there. This idea was unheard of back in 1951.

I'm sure that the future will hold even more stringent access as land continues to be gobbled up by development. Yes, a lot has changed over the past 60 years and the trends are obvious. Those posted signs aren't going anywhere.

[Doc]

I think this is a biggest misconception of them all especially in NY, here is a snippet direct from DEC

...

Q. Is posting required to protect landowners from liability?

A. No. Whether the property is posted or not, the General Obligations Law protects landowners from liability for non-paying recreationalists on their property.

...

I got denied the hunting rights a few times just because I didn't have liability insurance, I said I don't need one, still, got a NO-NO....bummer...

Actually that answer from the DEC is very misleading. While a lot of the more ridiculous lawsuits would lose their validity, there is still the legal expectation that there are not dangerous situations allowed to exist on your land. As an example, we lived for quite a few years on the old farmstead before we found an old abandoned open well part way up the hill. Don't ask me why anyone would dig a well up there, but many many years ago someone did and we could have been made to prove that we were unaware that we were allowing an unsafe situation to exist on our property (impossible to prove) if some hunter had fallen in and drowned. I also know of another open well that is quite nicely camoflaged by bushes on another property. There are other things such as old fences that can damage snowmobilers that could form a very nice little lawsuit if people were not warned not to trespass.

So I wouldn't feel too secure about a freedom from lawsuits just because the DEC says that such things have been tightened up a bit. I don't.

[13BVET]

Back in 1951, a posted sign in our area was a novelty. Hunting lands were huge and primarily owned by farmers who were way to busy to worry about chasing trespassers, and really had no interest in doing so. Also, a great many of them couldn't afford posted signs or the time that it took to put them up. All land that was away from houses and barns was considered a place to hunt and it was fine with landowner (no permission needed or expected).

Fast forward a decade or so, and you find improved roads and improved vehicles and improved wages that lured commuters out into the rural areas with the promise of cheap land, and lots of it, as the farmers rapidly deserted their farms and turned to the more lucrative jobs in the cities. Large tracts of land were broken into small parcels and filled with city transplants. With this new breed of landowner, fresh from the city, came new attitudes of possessiveness. Up went the posted signs and up went the denials of access. Every year since then it became more engrained in the rural societies. This idea of locking up land has become the established norms. Much of it has been driven by hunters themselves with careless hunting practices and a lack of respect for the property of others. Heavily publicized hunting deaths and near misses added fuel to the fire. Other abuses such as litter, fence damage, mechanized trespass with offensive sounding off-road vehicles and other abuses has solidified the attitudes of posting such that it is something that will never go away.

A new force has also been gaining acceptance recently. That is the new hunter/managers who have been impressed with the idea of growing their own trophies so they too can join the big-boys that they see on the TV that harvest these "manufactured trophies". I have seen the high fences, and the leases, and the large chunks of acreage that have been withdrawn from the hunting public with only a few "members" allowed to hunt there. This idea was unheard of back in 1951.

I'm sure that the future will hold even more stringent access as land continues to be gobbled up by development. Yes, a lot has changed over the past 60 years and the trends are obvious. Those posted signs aren't going anywhere.

Well said, Doc. That is exactly what has happened in Dutchess County. Within the last 10 years, the influx of people from the city, and Westchester, has either decimated hunting areas, or land has been bought up by avid anti-hunters. It's very possible, that at least Southern Dutchess may become bow only in the future. That may explain why Baxtertown WMU, which just opened, is bow only. I actually asked DEC why this area was bow only, and they cited that there was too much population growth in the area. They kind of hinted, that there was always a possibilty of Southern Dutchess becoming bow only in the long run, as they don't see gun as a viable option down the road, because of all the development.

[13BVET]

It's interesting to note, that during the '70's, and '80's, finding a place to hunt was easy. In fact, many hunters would hunt non-posted land, and the landowners couldn't have cared less. Hell, we used to hunt Texaco Research Centers property, and they would just stop and ask if you had any luck. Then came the influx, and that was all she wrote. Things definitely changed to the worst down here hunting wise.

[Jennifer]

It's interesting to note, that during the '70's, and '80's, finding a place to hunt was easy. In fact, many hunters would hunt non-posted land, and the landowners couldn't have cared less. Hell, we used to hunt Texaco Research Centers property, and they would just stop and ask if you had any luck. Then came the influx, and that was all she wrote. Things definitely changed to the worst down here hunting wise.

Yep-- I remember growing up, hunting, we hunted so many places! Some gorgeous places that I will always remember. Times have changed.

I like that the DEC offers those "Ask permission" stickers. But.. has anyone ever actually seen them used?!

My insurance company recommends that I post my property for liability reasons, and begrudgingly I agree, but I'm putting the Ask stickers up...

[MountainHunter]

I like the idea of ask permission stickers. It definitely implies a friendliness.

[Pygmy]

Doc, that is a VERY good chronology of what has happened within your lifetime and mine.

Can't say that I LIKE it, but it IS what it IS...

I'm glad I'm an old fart...I think I'll just give up this hunting BS and take up needlepoint and basketweaving..

It's time for my NAP..

[Doc]

I hate to say it, but I do consider myself very lucky to have been alive at a time when there were no barriers and I could walk an explore as much as I wanted, limited only by the number of daylight hours and sometimes not even that. As a kid I used to take all day hikes along the ridge-tops of the valley, and never encounter a single posted sign. I got to see some interesting country, and the only time anyone would ever see me at home was when it was time to eat. The rest of the time I was up on the hill. When I got old enough to hunt, I used to just pick out a chunk of hill and still-hunt until I got tired of walking. That's not so easy to do these days without being turned back by posted signs. In fact it is impossible. Many of today's kids and hunters will never know that kind of freedom.

[bkln]

Doc, I'm so jealous now, I wish I could have a time machine because these days suck as far as public hunting is concerned, at least in my area....Thanks for sharing....

[Nomad]

Well said doc. Those things were still the practice where i hunt up untill a few years ago really, then I was forced to post or be the place everyone who had no place hunted. As for unimproved ect. please define that for me. i have crop fields, laneways, stone parking areas,treestands,cut trails,mowed fields and the evil wood hut. I say any one of those is an improvment and i see little land that does not. I have also let a kid up the street from our land hang a stand on our unposted crop fields in an area i don't hunt much, he called me and asked how refreshing.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Larry302

[Kevin]

Why is this even a question/post to begin with...

Do everthing you have to do to get permission to hunt a section of land. Until then just stay off...

What's the next post going to be... 'Hey Guys.... I just picked up a new bolt action... well maybe muzzle loader i think. I cant tell because i dont have a manual. How to do i load it?'

For the love of God peole common sence....

[Pygmy]

I hate to say it, but I do consider myself very lucky to have been alive at a time when there were no barriers and I could walk an explore as much as I wanted, limited only by the number of daylight hours and sometimes not even that. As a kid I used to take all day hikes along the ridge-tops of the valley, and never encounter a single posted sign. I got to see some interesting country, and the only time anyone would ever see me at home was when it was time to eat. The rest of the time I was up on the hill. When I got old enough to hunt, I used to just pick out a chunk of hill and still-hunt until I got tired of walking. That's not so easy to do these days without being turned back by posted signs. In fact it is impossible. Many of today's kids and hunters will never know that kind of freedom.

Very nicely put, Doc... I cherish the memories of being able to take my gun and walk as far as I wanted to go in any direction and never be on property where I was not welcome. There are still some places on the continent where you can do that, but western NY certainly is not one of them.

I guess I'll go wax my Edsel...After that I'm going to get out the Sears Wish Book and order a Mattel FANNER FIFTY for my grandson for Christmas. <<grin>>....

[wesdblc]

land that is not posted and unimproved is fair game right from ECO's mouth

[doulos]

Do you actually read the posts on this forum?

....

Q. Must I post to keep people off my property?

A. No. Trespassing is illegal even on unposted property, unless it is unimproved, apparently unused and unfenced

....

http://www.dec.ny.go...tdoor/8371.html

i didnt respond to anything you posted bkln but that particular post by Ford

Edited December 12, 2011 by doulos

[SteveB]

land that is not posted and unimproved is fair game right from ECO's mouth

Fair game unless the owner tells you to go - and this could happen while recovering a deer you shot.

Not sure why the the concept of "if I don't have permission, I don't go" is so hard to grasp.

As much as the 70's attitude is missed, that is not what it is today.

[Doc]

land that is not posted and unimproved is fair game right from ECO's mouth

Frankly, I would try to get that in an e-mail reply so you have "written" interpretation of the law. At least you will have some kind of documentation that you meant well if some other ECO decides he doesn't agree.

I think that the included terms of "unimproved, apparently unused" could become points of discussion in court. For one thing, one has to invade the boundaries of the property in order to determine that the property is indeed unimproved or unused. Perhaps another point of possible misinterpretation might be what constitutes an improvement. The simple inclusion of an access road is an improvement. A well drilled on the property might be an improvement. A foundation hidden from view might be considered an improvement. A pond might be an improvement. A food plot might be considered an improvement. For me, my time is way too important to be wasted in court even if I eventually win. I don't think I will ever be trying to take advantage of those kinds of loop-holes.

[A Sportsman]

Hey Guys,

I remember reading a thread on this exact subject on this site in the past. I think it was from the regional LI forum. Anyway, it was beat to pulp. I don;t know how many pages it was, but alot.

In my opinion, what is missing from this converstation is any attention to the local "customs" of the area you are hunting. What is acceptable behavior in some areas, just doesn't work for others and vice versa. For instance, I used to hunt private property (with permission) in 6A. In that area, most of the private property wasn;t posted. Yet landowners expected hunters to stay off it. Most hunters observed this "code" but occaisionally, some knucklehead would try to hunt without permission and it would be a problem. In this type of area, as a responsible hunter, you should follow the local custom of only hunting on land you have permission for.

I also hunt Long Island and the "local" custom here is completely opposite. If a land owner does not post his property, he/she can expect hunters to go on it without permission. End of Story. There are just too many people who live and hunt here for any other "code" to work. No posted signs, means the land is available. Obviously, if you are asked to leave by the owner, you have to go. To take it one step further, by asking for permission to hunt on unposted land on LI, you are opening yourself up to someone saying no. And if they do, you will be shut out while a whole bunch of other hunters will hunt that same land for potentially many years. So as hunters from all over the state chime in on this issue, you have to keep in mind these differing "norms".

The other thing worth mentioning is that there is inevitably a varying perspective from guys in different situations. Some have great private access to good spots. Some have massive quantities of state land to hunt. And some live in areas where most of the land is private, yet they don't have any good spots where they have permission. No matter how much you try to stay objective on this topic, its almost impossible depending on where you are coming from.

[Meat Manager]

I love how this went from a thread about the law into getting hijacked into another..."Oh things were so much better 60 years ago."

Get over it, between me and my boy we have 9 tagged deer, 8 in NY and 1 in PA this season. If you haven't adapted to the ecological changes in your region then it is your own fault, you have had decades of gradual change to adapt.

Back to the actual point of the OP. Maybe if NY wasn't backasswards about landowners being obligated to Post we wouldn't have any confusion...again, such is the case in PA, a place you cranky old timers would really hate to hunt.

Also in PA landowners are encouraged to post their property with "Cooperation Wins" signs which allow use of the land for things like hunting, fishing, or hiking; but indicates that camping, fires and motor vehicle use beyond gates is still prohibited. DCNR then will patrol those private properties as if they were public.

Finally, between my buddy and I we got all but 2 of the 9 deer this season on Public Property, there is plenty of it and plenty of deer on it.

Edited December 12, 2011 by 7J Everyday

[A Sportsman]

7J, I hear you on the "quit crying" attitude. I agree that often enough guys like to complain rather than make success on what they have. BUT, here again, we can poke some holes in your argument, when you take some real world situations into account.

1. A 17 year old kid, whose dad never took him hunting, hasn't had "time to adapt". Finding land to hunt on may be tough.

and

2. Certain areas either don't have a lot of state land, or its very crowded, or the state land has certain rules that stink. Like on LI, to hunt state land you have to go to the check station in the morning before your head to your hunting spot. This rule makes it impossible to get on stand in the dark in many cases.

In my opinion, the fact that hunters are allowed to access unposted property is cool. There are still instances where owners may not post because they truly don't care if someone hunts it. God bless them.