virgil

Non-Lead Ammo Discussion online

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I use and will always use non-lead ammo and suggest everyone tries it. I don't believe in forcing people to use non-lead ammo for non migratory animals, but I highly suggest trying them out 

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Can't find enough ammo to consider options these days.  People are going to use what they have. I would use copper too if I could find a box of ammo to buy.  If someone wanted to use just copper where would they get it??

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Just now, Robhuntandfish said:

Can't find enough ammo to consider options these days.  People are going to use what they have. I would use copper too if I could find a box of ammo to buy.  If someone wanted to use just copper where would they get it??

I ask my gun shop to special order it for me

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Just now, ATbuckhunter said:

I ask my gun shop to special order it for me

Are they able to get it now?  Every store around here is out and have no answer to order any.  Online places have page after page of out of stock.   And will send notice when it is avail.  It's easy to say switch to copper but if it isn't avail its not much of an option. Lead also isnt really avail.  Most of what I shoot is copper already, but good luck getting much of anything.  

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1 minute ago, Robhuntandfish said:

Are they able to get it now?  Every store around here is out and have no answer to order any.  Online places have page after page of out of stock.   And will send notice when it is avail.  It's easy to say switch to copper but if it isn't avail its not much of an option. Lead also isnt really avail.  Most of what I shoot is copper already, but good luck getting much of anything.  

You'd have to ask. I was thinking about heading to the guy I go to soon and asking him to order a few boxes. 

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1 minute ago, ATbuckhunter said:

You'd have to ask. I was thinking about heading to the guy I go to soon and asking him to order a few boxes. 

I hope you can, but I would be surprised.  Copper is a nice option but no where around here can you go buy 3 different types of ammo and see what shoots best then go back and stock up.  Basically right now you shoot what you have and look to restock a box or two if your lucky.  Stores around here are looted for ammo. 

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Reading their intro/article, I see a few issues.

Lead is still used in plumbing, not new construction but it's everywhere. It's also used in most automotive paints(specifically primers), as well as fuels(av gas-airplanes and race fuel) roofing etc.

Secondly would burrying the gut pile on site or separately disposing (garbage) be a good way to prevent birds exposure thereby eliminating the issue?

Almost Everyone carries lead in their bloodstream, it's far from being eliminated from common use.

I'd be more open to listening to/partaking in something like this if it didn't start off with misleading information.

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I don't think there's anything misleading.  I seriously do0ubt that most readers will think that the statement is meant to imply that lead has been removed from pre-existing plumbing, or from everywhere else for that matter.  The intent is simply to protect wildlife and probably humans that consume lead that's either left behind in the woods by hunters or remains in the game meat after butchering.

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As a target shooter and hunter I use what shoots best out of my rifles-handguns and priced within reason. For someone that shoots a couple of bullets a year at a Deer price would not be a factor, with the amount of shooting I do I would go broke. If someone likes non lead good for them, I even have some myself but please do not tell me that a copper bullet kills better than and good traditional lead core bullet. I have used both and the bottom line is dead is dead!

Some day there may be across the board availability of non lead projectiles that perform and are priced competitively with traditional bullets, only then would I consider switching.

But that is only half the reason, all one has to do is take a look at California and the huge decline in hunting and shooting sports to see that there is a stealthy anti gun and anti hunting agenda behind the pro non lead movement. Both the Humane Society of the United States, Peta and other anti gun-hunting groups see this as an opportunity to whittle down our numbers and like I said take a good look at California for yourself to see this is not some made up fake news.

More below

Al

====================================================================================

The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) is at it again. Well, truthfully, they never really stopped. They are just attempting to re-energize their base by attacking hunters and gun owners. The largest animal rights anti-hunting organization in the U.S., and possibly the world, has filed a petition with the Department of the Interior demanding legislation to stop the use of lead-based ammunition on public land. This will impact both hunters and target shooters. Joining the HSUS are other anti-hunting groups including The Center for Biological Diversity, Defenders of Wildlife, the Natural Resources Defense Council and The Sierra Club. The press release states that five individual sportsmen are included as petitioners.

HSUS clearly views hunters and gun owners as barbarians who should perhaps be using stone age tools of rocks or spears against animals. Never mind that hunters desire is to have the most effective tools and ammunition possible to make a quick clean and humane kill. It's really not about the suffering of animals - it is only about the HSUS and their liberal agenda. It's not about saving anything or stopping suffering. It's all about raising money for HSUS. And they do know how to raise money.

The fifty-page petition spells out the HSUS position and makes many claims against the use of lead. It is clearly part of their overall goal to shut down hunting in the United States. Target shooting on public lands and ranges, is also in their sights. It is clearly an effort to deceive an unsuspecting public which many polls show supports legal sport hunting. The HSUS conveniently ignores that hunters (along with fishermen and trappers) fund wildlife conservation across the United States. It is a user pay funding system that does not rely upon general tax revenue funding while providing wildlife conservation benefits for the general public.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation points out that no conclusive evidence exists that shows hunters and target shooters using traditional ammunition have caused a decline in the population of raptors. Rather, raptor populations, including the population of bald eagles, continue a steady rise. That's a welcome and positive trend that coincides with the longstanding, widespread use of traditional ammunition by sportsmen. Advocates of banning traditional ammunition also attempt to cite human health risks, but studies have shown that those who consume game taken with traditional ammunition do not have higher blood lead levels than the national average.

In addition to hunting and target shooting, I am an avid trap shooter. I have reloaded shot shells, rifle and handgun ammunition for over forty-years. I consume dove, rabbit, pheasant and venison our family harvests each year using traditional lead ammunition. My annual physical includes a liver scan and lead tests. They remain normal and show no impact. Based on this personal experience, I see no significant human health risk from lead ammunition.

The new attacks on lead ammunition may be something of a ploy by the HSUS to deflect attention from the recent rulings in the case against Ringling Brothers Circus. Feld Entertainment, Inc., operator of the Ringling Brothers Circus, recovered $15.75 million in attorney fees from HSUS and their co-defendants who include Born Free USA/Animal Protection Institute, Fund for Animals, Animal Welfare Institute, and the American Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.

The US Sportsmen Alliance (USSA) reported that during the course of the lawsuit, evidence was uncovered that some of the groups, were secretly paying a plaintiff's living expenses and had submitted false information regarding those payments. In response, Feld Entertainment sued HSUS and the other groups under federal anti-racketeering laws known as the RICO Act.

“Sportsmen, farmers, ranchers, and other animal owners have long understood just how far these groups will go to pursue their extremist agenda,” said Nick Pinizzotto, U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance president and CEO. “Hopefully this settlement will help to rein in their underhanded ways. We’re happy to see the court dismiss this case and send a message that these sorts of tactics are not acceptable.”

Of course this is a temporary reversal for the HSUS. Their tactics of misrepresenting facts continues to be reflected in both their petition filing and press releases. For me, their worst claim is that the petition is supported by sportsmen across the United States. I just can't imagine knowledgeable sportsmen getting in bed, so to speak, with the HSUS. The HSUS is anti-hunting and anti-gun through and through. Their only interest in sportsmen is to eliminate our activities and way of life. Believing anything else is would require some kind of fancy rose-colored glasses and a serious case of denial.

Ammunition manufacturers will need to make bullets that have ballistics equivalent to lead ammunition. Stopping power is a prime consideration both for hunting and self-defense use. Finally, ammunition needs to be competitively priced and reasonably affordable. Conventional ammunition is both scarce and costly enough. The transition to non-toxic shot shells for waterfowl hunters took several years for technology in both the ammunition and shotguns to effectively catch up. There may be factors in rifle performance, such as barrel lengths and rate of twist, that may complicate the challenge.

Pursuit of lead-free ammunition should come from within the sportsmen community in partnership with firearms and ammunition manufacturers. It most certainly should not be an arbitrary decision by government bureaucrats or influenced by those who oppose all hunting.

There is plenty more for anyone interested.

https://www.nvfac.org/lead-ammo-petitions/

 

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Just now, airedale said:

As a target shooter and hunter I use what shoots best out of my rifles-handguns and priced within reason. For someone that shoots a couple of bullets a year at a Deer price would not be a factor, with the amount of shooting I do I would go broke. If someone likes non lead good for them, I even have some myself but please do not tell me that a copper bullet kills better than and good traditional lead core bullet. I have used both and the bottom line is dead is dead!

Some day there may be across the board availability of non lead projectiles that perform and are priced competitively with traditional bullets, only then would I consider switching.

But that is only half the reason, all one has to do is take a look at California and the huge decline in hunting and shooting sports to see that there is a stealthy anti gun and anti hunting agenda behind the pro non lead movement. Both the Humane Society of the United States, Peta and other anti gun-hunting groups see this as an opportunity to whittle down our numbers and like I said take a good look at California for yourself to see this is not some made up fake news.

More below

Al

====================================================================================

The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) is at it again. Well, truthfully, they never really stopped. They are just attempting to re-energize their base by attacking hunters and gun owners. The largest animal rights anti-hunting organization in the U.S., and possibly the world, has filed a petition with the Department of the Interior demanding legislation to stop the use of lead-based ammunition on public land. This will impact both hunters and target shooters. Joining the HSUS are other anti-hunting groups including The Center for Biological Diversity, Defenders of Wildlife, the Natural Resources Defense Council and The Sierra Club. The press release states that five individual sportsmen are included as petitioners.

HSUS clearly views hunters and gun owners as barbarians who should perhaps be using stone age tools of rocks or spears against animals. Never mind that hunters desire is to have the most effective tools and ammunition possible to make a quick clean and humane kill. It's really not about the suffering of animals - it is only about the HSUS and their liberal agenda. It's not about saving anything or stopping suffering. It's all about raising money for HSUS. And they do know how to raise money.

The fifty-page petition spells out the HSUS position and makes many claims against the use of lead. It is clearly part of their overall goal to shut down hunting in the United States. Target shooting on public lands and ranges, is also in their sights. It is clearly an effort to deceive an unsuspecting public which many polls show supports legal sport hunting. The HSUS conveniently ignores that hunters (along with fishermen and trappers) fund wildlife conservation across the United States. It is a user pay funding system that does not rely upon general tax revenue funding while providing wildlife conservation benefits for the general public.

The National Shooting Sports Foundation points out that no conclusive evidence exists that shows hunters and target shooters using traditional ammunition have caused a decline in the population of raptors. Rather, raptor populations, including the population of bald eagles, continue a steady rise. That's a welcome and positive trend that coincides with the longstanding, widespread use of traditional ammunition by sportsmen. Advocates of banning traditional ammunition also attempt to cite human health risks, but studies have shown that those who consume game taken with traditional ammunition do not have higher blood lead levels than the national average.

In addition to hunting and target shooting, I am an avid trap shooter. I have reloaded shot shells, rifle and handgun ammunition for over forty-years. I consume dove, rabbit, pheasant and venison our family harvests each year using traditional lead ammunition. My annual physical includes a liver scan and lead tests. They remain normal and show no impact. Based on this personal experience, I see no significant human health risk from lead ammunition.

The new attacks on lead ammunition may be something of a ploy by the HSUS to deflect attention from the recent rulings in the case against Ringling Brothers Circus. Feld Entertainment, Inc., operator of the Ringling Brothers Circus, recovered $15.75 million in attorney fees from HSUS and their co-defendants who include Born Free USA/Animal Protection Institute, Fund for Animals, Animal Welfare Institute, and the American Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.

The US Sportsmen Alliance (USSA) reported that during the course of the lawsuit, evidence was uncovered that some of the groups, were secretly paying a plaintiff's living expenses and had submitted false information regarding those payments. In response, Feld Entertainment sued HSUS and the other groups under federal anti-racketeering laws known as the RICO Act.

“Sportsmen, farmers, ranchers, and other animal owners have long understood just how far these groups will go to pursue their extremist agenda,” said Nick Pinizzotto, U.S. Sportsmen’s Alliance president and CEO. “Hopefully this settlement will help to rein in their underhanded ways. We’re happy to see the court dismiss this case and send a message that these sorts of tactics are not acceptable.”

Of course this is a temporary reversal for the HSUS. Their tactics of misrepresenting facts continues to be reflected in both their petition filing and press releases. For me, their worst claim is that the petition is supported by sportsmen across the United States. I just can't imagine knowledgeable sportsmen getting in bed, so to speak, with the HSUS. The HSUS is anti-hunting and anti-gun through and through. Their only interest in sportsmen is to eliminate our activities and way of life. Believing anything else is would require some kind of fancy rose-colored glasses and a serious case of denial.

Ammunition manufacturers will need to make bullets that have ballistics equivalent to lead ammunition. Stopping power is a prime consideration both for hunting and self-defense use. Finally, ammunition needs to be competitively priced and reasonably affordable. Conventional ammunition is both scarce and costly enough. The transition to non-toxic shot shells for waterfowl hunters took several years for technology in both the ammunition and shotguns to effectively catch up. There may be factors in rifle performance, such as barrel lengths and rate of twist, that may complicate the challenge.

Pursuit of lead-free ammunition should come from within the sportsmen community in partnership with firearms and ammunition manufacturers. It most certainly should not be an arbitrary decision by government bureaucrats or influenced by those who oppose all hunting.

There is plenty more for anyone interested.

https://www.nvfac.org/lead-ammo-petitions/

 

There's no suggestion that you should change what you use at the range.  only in the woods.

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Every range there ever was when they close down is a RECRA hazardous waste site.  Lead is known as a Persistent Bioaccumulate Toxin (PBT)   Lead is an elemental material that doesn't breakdown.    In industry if you use more than a hundred pounds of lead you get the joy of filling out a SARA Title III report to explain where all your lead went .  I've had this joy.    Getting to the hundred pound threshold isn't tough.  It's  lead, it's dense, it's heavy.  There's no more lead smelters in all the US, they are all off shore now.   Wet cell batteries still use a bunch of lead.

I would like to build a range on my property but the design is going to be a lot better than just shooting into an earth berm.  Daughter is presently dating a structural welder.  She's been informed not to screw up until I finished my bullet trap design.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, virgil said:

I don't think there's anything misleading.  I seriously do0ubt that most readers will think that the statement is meant to imply that lead has been removed from pre-existing plumbing, or from everywhere else for that matter.  The intent is simply to protect wildlife and probably humans that consume lead that's either left behind in the woods by hunters or remains in the game meat after butchering.

I understand it's to protect the birds ....I'd be more than willing to participate in a real discussion but...

"To lessen these impacts, lead has been removed from plumbing, paints, gasoline, fishing sinkers, waterfowl shot and other products.  However,  ammunition for hunting remains a significant source of lead in our environment. "

The statement is false. Will the panel dismiss this like you or is it going to be a truthful and open discussion?

Like I stated it has not been removed. It is a statement and an opening statement used as a precursory reason why evil hunters shouldn't use lead. They even tell you "why you should"

Thanks for ignoring my question on disposal of contaminated remains.

With all due respect It doesn't matter what you think, but what the readers think.

This reader thinks, hey you uneducated people on the subject of lead, your bad, lead is bad it's not used anywhere else and you need to stop.

What people are on the pro lead side of the "panel discussion"? Or is it going to be a completely one sided misinformation "panel" aka propoganda?

By the way I encourage you to have your blood tested for lead, I think you would be surprised. Almost everyone carries it in their bloodstream newborn babies city people etc....all my shooting and consumption of game meat hasn't ever raised my levels. I probably put more rounds downrange the this whole forum combined. And I cast. I've literally casted tons of it...

The only people I know with "high levels" are body shop guys, probably because it's airerated from sanding and spraying and it gets cross contaminated with everything.

 

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4 minutes ago, Modern hillbilly said:

I understand it's to protect the birds ....I'd be more than willing to participate in a real discussion but...

"To lessen these impacts, lead has been removed from plumbing, paints, gasoline, fishing sinkers, waterfowl shot and other products.  However,  ammunition for hunting remains a significant source of lead in our environment. "

The statement is false. Will the panel dismiss this like you or is it going to be a truthful and open discussion?

Like I stated it has not been removed. It is a statement and an opening statement used as a precursory reason why evil hunters shouldn't use lead. They even tell you "why you should"

Thanks for ignoring my question on disposal of contaminated remains.

With all due respect It doesn't matter what you think, but what the readers think.

This reader thinks, hey you uneducated people on the subject of lead, your bad, lead is bad it's not used anywhere else and you need to stop.

What people are on the pro lead side of the "panel discussion"? Or is it going to be a completely one sided misinformation "panel" aka propoganda?

By the way I encourage you to have your blood tested for lead, I think you would be surprised. Almost everyone carries it in their bloodstream newborn babies city people etc....all my shooting and consumption of game meat hasn't ever raised my levels. I probably put more rounds downrange the this whole forum combined. And I cast. I've literally casted tons of it...

The only people I know with "high levels" are body shop guys, probably because it's airerated from sanding and spraying and it gets cross contaminated with everything.

 

This discussion falls under the same category as most environmental improvements. There is a cleaner alternative but it costs more,so people balk at changing. Any bullet right now is hard to get,so i get this is not the easiest time to change.

Lead affects young brains more than adult ones. I think if we can remove a hazardous material grom the environment why wouldn't we?

Also,as far as contaminating the meat and gut pile the non lead becomes much more important in rifle uses because the bullets fragment so much more than slow bullets like a shotgun or muzzleloader. So the lead contamination of deer meat made a big jump after rifles were allowed,which was what like 12 years ago? So there is not that much historical data there.

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14 minutes ago, Modern hillbilly said:

I understand it's to protect the birds ....I'd be more than willing to participate in a real discussion but...

"To lessen these impacts, lead has been removed from plumbing, paints, gasoline, fishing sinkers, waterfowl shot and other products.  However,  ammunition for hunting remains a significant source of lead in our environment. "

The statement is false. Will the panel dismiss this like you or is it going to be a truthful and open discussion?

Like I stated it has not been removed. It is a statement and an opening statement used as a precursory reason why evil hunters shouldn't use lead. They even tell you "why you should"

Thanks for ignoring my question on disposal of contaminated remains.

With all due respect It doesn't matter what you think, but what the readers think.

This reader thinks, hey you uneducated people on the subject of lead, your bad, lead is bad it's not used anywhere else and you need to stop.

What people are on the pro lead side of the "panel discussion"? Or is it going to be a completely one sided misinformation "panel" aka propoganda?

By the way I encourage you to have your blood tested for lead, I think you would be surprised. Almost everyone carries it in their bloodstream newborn babies city people etc....all my shooting and consumption of game meat hasn't ever raised my levels. I probably put more rounds downrange the this whole forum combined. And I cast. I've literally casted tons of it...

The only people I know with "high levels" are body shop guys, probably because it's airerated from sanding and spraying and it gets cross contaminated with everything.

 

Take it easy pal.  I don't represent the organization.  I just didn't find the link as threatening and dubious as you did.  Don't attend the discussion if you don't want to.

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4 minutes ago, BowmanMike said:

This discussion falls under the same category as most environmental improvements. There is a cleaner alternative but it costs more,so people balk at changing. Any bullet right now is hard to get,so i get this is not the easiest time to change.

Lead affects young brains more than adult ones. I think if we can remove a hazardous material grom the environment why wouldn't we?

Also,as far as contaminating the meat and gut pile the non lead becomes much more important in rifle uses because the bullets fragment so much more than slow bullets like a shotgun or muzzleloader. So the lead contamination of deer meat made a big jump after rifles were allowed,which was what like 12 years ago? So there is not that much historical data there.

The point is to protect the birds. I don't see the point in going batchit crazy when other methods haven't been tried.

There is historical data all across the country, state regs are not nationwide.

Lead does affect mental development. Where is lead in newborn babies coming from?Lead is high in new construction water because the solder hasn't been coated with water scale. No one cares...lead is a known source in children's toys from china biden certainly doesn't care.

What about airplanes spraying lead through our atmosphere..what about solar panels and other green energies using lead cobalt and all the other toxic heavy metals? Can't we make a better effort to keep things clean?

Its so weird hunters are the problem.

If they ban lead projectiles will they ban primers too? That's where the lead in the air comes from during most shooting after all.

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17 minutes ago, virgil said:

Take it easy pal.  I don't represent the organization.  I just didn't find the link as threatening and dubious as you did.  Don't attend the discussion if you don't want to.

I'm not crapping on you for repping the organization, but you are peddling it. I guess I shouldn't expect people to know that much about something they care to share or promote. I'm not trying to attack you, I guess I thought you knew more about it than you did. I understand you want to promote bird protections and that's a good thing.

I didn't find it threatening at all do you? Why would you think that? More one sided and factually false yes. I didn't know pointing out false information was a reaction to threatening and dubious behavior, unless you think it is threatening and dubious behavior?

I think we should talk about lead. The more educated people are on it the better decisions they can make. 

 

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2 hours ago, virgil said:
2 hours ago, airedale said:

 

There's no suggestion that you should change what you use at the range.  only in the woods.

Sorry but I know what is going on here and have been in the fight for years, the ultimate goal is not only to ban traditional lead ammo period which will put a big hurt on firearms owners but also hunting period these people are in bed with the Animal rights organizations. There is plenty of documentation they in fact brag about it.

They have already started this trend in California and take a look at what has happened to gun ownership, ammo and hunting, The numbers do not lie!

Al

Edited by airedale
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Ok guys. I’m not interested in going round and round on conspiracy theories and whatnot. If you’re interested in the subject, great. If not, your choice- but don’t forget to keep telling everyone that hunters are the best conservationists. 

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7 hours ago, ATbuckhunter said:

I use and will always use non-lead ammo and suggest everyone tries it. I don't believe in forcing people to use non-lead ammo for non migratory animals, but I highly suggest trying them out 

What do you shoot? Any standouts? 

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I haven’t found a wide selection. I use Hornady Superformance 165gr for my 30-06. Ive had great results. 

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I’ve been wanting to make the switch for bird shot but haven’t yet. I’ve heard good things about Boss and Backridge ammo, and they certainly do a lot of marketing, but I’ve never shot either.
I recall reading about an upland hunter whose dogs died of lead poisoning after prolonged illness. I’ll try to find the article, I forget the details. 

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8 minutes ago, virgil said:

I haven’t found a wide selection. I use Hornady Superformance 165gr for my 30-06. Ive had great results. 

I shoot Hornady Superformance SST. My SST groupings were better than with their GMX. I think the GMX is all copper and heavier in my case 

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3 hours ago, virgil said:

Ok guys. I’m not interested in going round and round on conspiracy theories and whatnot. If you’re interested in the subject, great. If not, your choice- but don’t forget to keep telling everyone that hunters are the best conservationists. 

Bravo! Changing hearts and minds then insinuate and pass judgement when met with questions and facts that don't align with your scripture.

Ahh insinuation...let me try....Maybe you want to burn down my city? Wear black and beat some people who don't agree? 

I'm not sure what your rambling about with conservation or conspericies where did anybody say that?

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3 hours ago, Versatile_Hunter said:

What do you shoot? Any standouts? 

Depends for what. For deer and bear its Barnes Vor-tx. For turkey I use heavy shot a lot and for birds I use plain ol steel

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