THE GREAT HEALTH CARE DEBATE..

[adirondackbushwhack]

You believe that the government will take care of you and has nothing but your best interest at heart and will give you the best care no matter what isn't that so? And I don't blieve that for a second, I choose to look at their track record and have no choice but to believe that countless American people will be denied health care while costs skyrocket. Under Obama care we will all lose excepting maybe a few poor soles or lazy individuals who might see a moderate increase in health care so long as they don't have a major illness.

No, i never said that. What you're forgetting is that 'obamacare' does not imply that there will be only one option for coverage. it just assures that everyone will have coverage. private health insurance is not being eliminated. if you currently have coverage, noone is going to take it away.

No I'm not forgetting that at all. I have private insurance and it already HAS been affected by Obama care in that the rates have increased. Now then what would make me, you, or anyone think that my private insurance won't be affected by Obama care in the future as well? If the death panels now being formed in medicare, and will surely be formed in Obama care, decide not to cover certain things what will keep my insurance from dropping that coverage as well? After all the government is setting the standards isn't it? You have faith that Obama care will work is that so? I have faith that it not only won't work but will also cost peoples lives and I don't want me and mine to die because somebody else choose to spend their money on something other than insurance. If you hgave insurance now why in gods name would you want a politician to take over control of it and if you don't have insurance now why don't ya?

[Grouse]

Many people have already lost their current health insurance plan, and more will follow. As Obamacare pushes up insurance costs, many companies have been forced to stop providing health insurance to their employees for survival reasons. The costs would kill their competitive edge and put them out of business.

This is the real plan under Obamacare, to go to a single payor system, the government. And they will dictate how, when and where you get health care.

[nyantler]

the word 'free' should have been in quotes. that's all. other than that, i stand by the statement. your inability to distinguish the difference between 'government funded' and 'government run' is not my problem.

Shame you haven't figured out that they are one in the same... the government doesn't fund anything that they don't ultimately control. As for health care... they won't only control it.. they will control the people who need it as well. And, no doubt screw it up like they do everything else... if you think for one minute they care about you or your health you are sadly mistaken... they only care about controling one of the biggest money making schemes in existence... where there is money... there will be government trying to get a piece of the action. Why? Because they can... because people like you buy into their bullsh*t.

[wdswtr]

I am totaly lost in the liberal thinking. American citizens are being turned into puppets and its Obama's hand that is up your arse trying to control your every move and making you become dependant on government. He indeed is a smart man its just a shame he cares not for the United States of America. This health care plan is just sickening. It is one more step towards making you completely dependant on government. He is succesfully creating a country with no pride. He is teaching our children it is perfectly fine to become nothing in this country because the government will take care of you through the people who do have pride and are succesful. Let me create a couple scenarios for you liberals and tell me which scenario you would accept, now its hypothetical but indeed it is the concept that Obama and his liberals are teaching and asking of proud hard working succesful americans.

Now go back in time a bit when you were in college or high school. You are the honor roll student, the 4.0 college student. You take great pride from your hard work and succes at being a top student. Now every day sitting next to you is a student that cares alot less, spends little time doing any work, plays alot harder and there grades are suffering from it. In fact they are either failing or at the point where there grades are not going to be able to fill the requirements to attend the college any longer.

Scenario 1. This student has no choice and although he/she had a great time drinking and partying during there short stay at the school. Oh well he/she paved their own road and its not your problem. Your problem is your future. Your problem is creating a life and family that is cared for and all there needs are met by yourself not anyone else. Your problem is becoming the best you can be and teaching your children the same morals and values your parents bestowed upon you. Your problem is making your parents proud of who you are becoming and using the money that has been spent on you to become succesful in a responsible manner.

Scenario 2....Well how is it fair that you worked so hard and received such honorable grades while this other student is going to have a subpar life from having so much fun and not focusing on there future. Well its not, so what we will do to make his future as bright and equal as yours is we are going to take part of your grades and apply them to theirs. Problem solved you both now have average grades and will have an average income when you get an average job. You will not be rewarded from your success and hard work instead you will have the great feeling inside you knowing that you carried an irresponsible kid on your back while you had to work 4 times harder than they did for the both of you to be an average student. It is truly an honorable and great feeling to know that other student can depend on you to carry them. With great pride you can sleep easy knowing that that other person is going to teach his children that its okay to be a slacker, its okay to be irresponsible because the system allows you to be that way, why you ask well because the other smart hard working responsible kid will carry you through out your life.

Scenario 2 is liberal thinking whether you are willing to accept it or not. Theres no reward to being succesful unless you are a Liberal Polititian. Your reward is being crammed down your throat by taking away your success and giving it to the lazy and irresponsible. Wait you mean to tell me your a liberal and you are not going with Scenario #2? Theres a word for that I believe its called a hypocrite. And to be sure you understand what a hypocrite is here is the definition. 1 a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2 a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings.

And before anyone questions this no where have I stated anything against TEMPORARY assistance, disability or any military benefits.

Obama needs to go, there is no debate about it. His disfunctional health care plan needs to go, his lack of teaching americans to have pride needs to go, his denial of job creation and false un-employment numbers need to go, his lies need to go, his fuel and energy plan needs to go. He has done NOTHING to better this country as a whole. When a government rewards you for being a failure and discredits you for being succesful it is the biggest shame we are facing as an American. His inaugural speech is quite a joke looking back at it now. "At these moments, America has carried on not simply because of the skill or vision of those in high office, but because We the people have remained faithful to the ideas of our forebearers and true to our founding documents"

"On this day, we gather because we have chosen hope over fear, unity of purpose over conflict and discord"

"On this day, we come to proclaim an end to the petty grievances and false promise, the recriminations and worn out dogmas, that for far long have strangled our politics"

So lets burn the constitution and everything it stands for,thanks for taking my hope and turning it into the greatest fear I have ever had for my children and this country, thanks for even more false promises thanks for a whole new list of petty grievances you have added to our lives, thanks for strangling our politics even more and not putting so much added and needed faith in our government system Obama has put a whole new twist on worn out dogmas. Sad truly sad

Edited April 13, 2012 by wdswtr

[sits in trees]

Why can Germany make their health care/insurance work at a cost that is almost 1/2 of ours and nobody goes broke when they get sick, and why do they get quick immediate quality care that we could only dream of in this country. Why are people from all over the world starting to go to Germany and France for the finest in surgical procedures? Why?

If they have what is called socialized medicine and it is so horrible why are they outliving us and not having their homes and everything they have ever worked for takin from them because they get sick? I gotta know?

[virgil]

Just ckecked back in. Sits in Trees answered it for me. thanks.

[SteveB]

Is Obamacare modeled after Germany's system?

[burmjohn]

Is Obamacare modeled after Germany's system?

No

[SteveB]

That's what I thought - no reason to use Germany's program as any kind of justification for obamacare as written.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Why can Germany make their health care/insurance work at a cost that is almost 1/2 of ours and nobody goes broke when they get sick, and why do they get quick immediate quality care that we could only dream of in this country. Why are people from all over the world starting to go to Germany and France for the finest in surgical procedures? Why?

If they have what is called socialized medicine and it is so horrible why are they outliving us and not having their homes and everything they have ever worked for takin from them because they get sick? I gotta know?

There are quite a few reasons, but as has been said, Obamacare is not modeled after what you are talking about.

The private insurance system alone isnt the cause for the insurance hikes, etc. Federally funded and controlled Insurance is not the answer, its just another attempt to fix a symptom. Health insurance (and other forms of insurance for that matter) costs will never go down until the lawsuit industry is brought under control.

BTW Sits, I cant believe you of all people would seem to be supportive of the government wiping you ass for you. I thought you were all for freedom and freedom of choice, like you espouse on the crossbow subject and other political subjects. Hmmmmm

[virgil]

The entire world recognizes the German system as a model of quality and efficiency. How can you see such a thing as an assault on your freedom? This is the part that I don't understand. I'm amazed at the way people can be influenced to vote against their own best interests with fear tactics and buzz words like 'freedom'.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The German system is nothing like obamacare. Theres no comparison, youre grabbing straws.

[virgil]

I never said it was the same thing. But, it's not that far off. What do you see as the big differences?

[Pav2704]

Hey Virgil,

I found this website that talks about the German Health Care and the big issue that I can see is that most working people would have to pay a lot more for their health care. If this site is correct, all working people pay a flat 8% based on their salary. Based on that statistic, its great if your unemployed, work off the books, or don't really make much money; but if you have two working members in your household it seems like your footing the bill for others.

Here's the site if anyone wants to take a look. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91971406

I never said it was the same thing. But, it's not that far off. What do you see as the big differences?

[virgil]

To some degree, you might be 'footing the bill for others'. But, it's a public plan- that's to be expected. From what I've read, they spend considerably less on average for their health care than we do. And, the majority of their citizens are happy with the system. When you're adding up the cost of care here, you have to consider the cost that employers pay for their employees (which is why many companies are reducing the coverage that they offer), as well as the cost in tax money that we all pay to fund the already existing public plans ie medicare and medicaid; plus the out of pocket costs that we pay by way of deductibles and copays.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Why can Germany make their health care/insurance work at a cost that is almost 1/2 of ours and nobody goes broke when they get sick, and why do they get quick immediate quality care that we could only dream of in this country.

They do not provide (pay for) free healthcare to illegals.

Why are people from all over the world starting to go to Germany and France for the finest in surgical procedures? Why?

From Wikipedia:

On 1 January 2005, a new immigration law came into effect that altered the legal method of immigration to Germany. The political background to the introduction of the new immigration law being that Germany for the first time ever acknowledged to be an "immigration country." Although the practical changes to the immigration procedures were relatively minor, new immigration categories like the ones for highly skilled professionals and scientists have been introduced to attract valuable professionals for the German labour market. The development within German immigration law clearly shows that immigration of skilled employees and academics is eased while the labour market remains closed for unskilled workers.

They're only letting the cream of the crop in, not so in the U.S. They also don't take care of illegals.

If they have what is called socialized medicine and it is so horrible why are they outliving us

By 5 years?

and not having their homes and everything they have ever worked for takin from them because they get sick? I gotta know?

From the boston Globe allbeit in 2006: US homeownership @66%, germany 42% . Seems they never owned their homes to begin with. They have a huge subsidized rental market and a very low homeownership rate to begin with.

[nyantler]

Of course the German health care system is good.. it costs individuals 15.5% of their gross wages... now take that number and add income taxes, capital gains tax, sales tax, phone tax, etc. etc. and you have a government that has all your money and all the control... I'm still not ready to give up that much freedom to the US government. How is it possibly equatable to charge a 15.5% premium based on your gross earnings... why should one man pay $150,000 for insurance and another man $1500 for the same care... then there will be those that pay nothing... thats insane... and the government gets to hold on to all that money... much like social security it will become a fund to be raped to expand more government spending behind our backs. I really think a few of you still don't get how badly our government steals from its people to further their greed and power. Wake up for crying out loud stop buying into all the BS. How many failed government run programs do you need to see to realize that the government is not the answer?

Edited April 13, 2012 by nyantler

[burmjohn]

Of course the German health care system is good.. it costs individuals 15.5% of their gross wages... now take that number and add income taxes, capital gains tax, sales tax, phone tax, etc. etc. and you have a government that has all your money and all the control... I'm still not ready to give up that much freedom to the US government. How is it possibly equatable to charge a 15.5% premium based on your gross earnings... why should one man pay $150,000 for insurance and another man $1500 for the same care... then there will be those that pay nothing... thats insane... and the government gets to hold on to all that money... much like social security it will become a fund to be raped to expand more government spending behind our backs. I really think a few of you still don't get how badly our government steals from its people to further their greed and power. Wake up for crying out loud stop buying into all the BS. How many failed government run programs do you need to see to realize that the government is not the answer?

100% Agree. Govt waste is disgusting, you have illegals getting welfare and millions and millions in medicare fraud. Solve these problems first, cut foreign aid, cut the bs spending, reduce the debt and then maybe just maybe you can think about solving healthcare. Business and common sense 101 , don't throw good money at bad.

[wdswtr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFY75gI9tu0&feature=related

[First-light]

http://www.taxrates.cc/html/germany-tax-rates.html

Tax rates are high in Germany, nothing is for free.

[wooffer]

The entire world recognizes the German system as a model of quality and efficiency. How can you see such a thing as an assault on your freedom? This is the part that I don't understand. I'm amazed at the way people can be influenced to vote against their own best interests with fear tactics and buzz words like 'freedom'.

Talk about apples and oranges. Have you ever been to Germany? Their whole culture and outlook on health is different from us. Plus I wouldn't compare our lazy municipal workers to Germany's. GSA has brought to light the glutony and waste of the public sector workforce.

[sits in trees]

Hey Virgil,

I found this website that talks about the German Health Care and the big issue that I can see is that most working people would have to pay a lot more for their health care. If this site is correct, all working people pay a flat 8% based on their salary. Based on that statistic, its great if your unemployed, work off the books, or don't really make much money; but if you have two working members in your household it seems like your footing the bill for others.

Here's the site if anyone wants to take a look. http://www.npr.org/t...toryId=91971406

Pav you are a teacher, so your healthcare insurance is paid for by others and you pay close to nothing for superior health care. If you work in the private sector or worse self employed in the US you are most likely paying 8% or more of your salary for your health insurance anyway when you add in copays and deductibles and that is with crappy care?

[sits in trees]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFY75gI9tu0&feature=related

Dude dont you realize your argument is completely diminished when you post stuff like this.

[sits in trees]

BTW Sits, I cant believe you of all people would seem to be supportive of the government wiping you ass for you. I thought you were all for freedom and freedom of choice, like you espouse on the crossbow subject and other political subjects. Hmmmmm

I would like to have the freedom of choice to not have to pay for people who dont want to get health insurance with the ever increasing cost of my own health inurance. So that is why i think the mandate to force slackers who dont wanna pay for their health care is GOOD! Edited April 14, 2012 by sits in trees

[Grouse]

How about we just make people who don't have healthcare pay for their medical expenses when they get them? They may never have any money, but they will always owe the money to the Fed if they ever get any. Even if the Fed only takes a piece of what they have every year, they will at least know healthcare is not "Free". You need it, you will pay for it, for the rest of you life, if that's what it takes.

Letting people off scott free all the time is what makes people think they don't need to have healthcare.