Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area.  :

I suppose that is possible .... that and maybe a bunch of other reasons. But that is a whole lot of supposing. The fact is that we have "rumors" of a bunch of people calling for AR, and still the 1.5 yr olds go down at the same rate. To me it sounds like at best it's a whole lot of lip service without much conviction.

Doc

I dont see where you are getting that from? The chart I saw a bunch of pages back, seems to show that in the AR areas, the 1.5 take is down by quite a bit. Can you point me in the right direction to the numbers you are drawing your info from? Im looking for numbers from the AR areas, not the state as a whole, btw.

Why are you only considering AR WMUs when almost all of the state is non-AR. Your previous reply wasn't about AR areas. I thought we were talking about this general mythical AR acceptance (demand even) across the state. I haven't heard of any sudden drop in 1.5 yr old harvest statewide. Have you?

Doc

We are looking at what effects ARs have, or why someone would support them, right? Why would you care what 1.5 numbers are in non-AR units? You can only compare pre and post AR numbers for a given area to see why people would support them.

I don't know, I was responding to your following reply which is clearly regarding non AR areas:

"Maybe they support ARs because they would just rather have the opportunity to shoot bigger, more mature bucks, which they dont have because everyone around them shoots everything brown and all thats around are spikes and forkhorns in their area."

I guess the discussion has changed somewhere along the line....lol.

I know what you were replying to, that still doesnt mean we should be comparing non-AR numbers to see the effects of AR.  :

[Doc]

I know what you were replying to, that still doesnt mean we should be comparing non-AR numbers to see the effects of AR.  :

Sorry, I'm just trying to stay on track in this shifting debate. I lost my scorecard somewhere .... lol.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

understandable during this 50 page ping pong match...lol

[Larry]

  Check this out off the DEC web site

2010deer4castr3.pdf

2010deer4castr9.pdf

2010deer4castr8.pdf

[TheHunter]

Larry,

Thanks for posting that.

Keep in mind the following:

Based on the data the DEC is providing from 2006 to 2009, 4 years of data shows the following for the WMU's with AR:

3C: from 508 bucks to 514 bucks = 1% +

3H: from 876 bucks to 1245 bucks = 42% +

3J:  from 712 bucks to 797 bucks = 19% +

3K: from 656 bucks to 568 bucks = 13% -

AND the most important, that the statewide buck harvest has been down from a high of 140k in 2000 as burmjohn pointed out and has YET to rebound to those levels, falling short in 2009 by almost 40K deer (40%) from 2000 levels 2 years before AR was introduced intro the initial two AR areas.

So thanks  ;D  for your useful post that gives us zero insight into the AR effectiveness other then the proven first hand experience that those have posted on here from FACT and first hand experience.

Bravo!

[Larry]

i think your numbers for 3j is +11% 3h +30% sorry i'm a numbers guy

[WNYBuckHunter]

I know what you were replying to, that still doesnt mean we should be comparing non-AR numbers to see the effects of AR.  :

Sorry, I'm just trying to stay on track in this shifting debate. I lost my scorecard somewhere .... lol.

Apparently.

[nyantler]

AR is a good idea, just not the AR that NY imposes... 3 point on one side.. is usually still a 1.5 yr old buck. The only true in the field why to gauge age would be antler width.. it is much more reliable (although much harder for hunter) I use the outside the ears for my personal AR. Makes me look hard at a buck before deciding to kill him...and if its borderline outside the ears and I'm not sure.. I pass. simple!

[WNYBuckHunter]

The problem is, there are exceptions to the outside the ears rule as well. Ive seen mature bucks that have racks that are tall and narrow, and non-typicals that stay inside the ears as well.

[nyantler]

Thats true.. but if you go with percentages its a better field judge.... if the deer has a lot of head gear I usually don't have to check the  width.. I killed a 10-pointer once that scored in the 130's and only had a 14 inch spread.. but when i saw his rack it was a no brainer to shoot or not.. unfortunately there is no perfect science in all thia.. just better science than the DEC is using at the moment.

[burmjohn]

i think your numbers for 3j is +11% 3h +30% sorry i'm a numbers guy

Actually its 11.9% for 3J and 3H is correct at + 42% (the largest WMU as well)...

[Larry]

If you divide 876 by 1245 you get .7036 so 876 is about 70% of 1245 I know how you got your numbers this go to show you how you can make things say what you want

[burmjohn]

If you divide 876 by 1245 you get .7036 so 876 is about 70% of 1245 I know how you got your numbers this go to show you how you can make things say what you want

I'm not trying to make things how "I want", its the proper calculation of percentage increase and decrease.

1. The first step is to find the difference between the two numbers: 1245 - 876 = 369

2. Take the result of that and divide it by the original number: 369 / 876 =  .4212

3. Multiply this last number by 100: .4212 * 100 = 42.12%

Thanks

[Larry]

what i was tring to do was show how the number could be spun tho show what one wants to see i know the math 876 is 70% of 1245

[Doc]

What an amazing thread ...... 13641 views. That's a whole lot. Obviously this is one of the super hot button issues of the day. Unfortunately, I doubt that anyone's mind is being changed but the subject is certainly being well-covered.

Doc

[Larry]

after 10/17 i will be hunting for 1 of the 5 P&Y's I've seen and  this wont matter. remember i do QDM but its my choice and thats what i'm for. there is room for all in the the deer wood if you think your way is better then the other guy and you want to force your way on him then ITS TIME FOR YOU TO GET OUT OF THE WOODS AND GO HOME. because you have lost your way and have forgotten what hunting is all about and i feel sorry for you. wheather or not you are for AR's it is how YOU play the game not how the guy on the other side of the fence plays the game.

[burmjohn]

what i was tring to do was show how the number could be spun tho show what one wants to see i know the math 876 is 70% of 1245

You can't spin the numbers, the calculation you did was if there was a decrease.  You don't divide by the second number, you divide by the number you START with. 

Regardless, good luck w/the buck, your fortunate to have those types of opportunities.

[TheHunter]

what i was tring to do was show how the number could be spun tho show what one wants to see i know the math 876 is 70% of 1245

IF you were calculating a DECREASE, if the number went from 1245 to 867 then it would be 30%, however we are not calculating a decrease, we are caculating an increase, its basic math.

after 10/17 i will be hunting for 1 of the 5 P&Y's I've seen and  this wont matter. remember i do QDM but its my choice and thats what i'm for. there is room for all in the the deer wood if you think your way is better then the other guy and you want to force your way on him then ITS TIME FOR YOU TO GET OUT OF THE WOODS AND GO HOME. because you have lost your way and have forgotten what hunting is all about and i feel sorry for you. wheather or not you are for AR's it is how YOU play the game not how the guy on the other side of the fence plays the game.

Thats great you have a chance to hunt 5 P&Y's, the area's with AR's do not have that kind of age structure to allow for those kinds of opportunities.  The situtuation and your thoughts would be different for you if you were in a AR area that needed assistance.  This is why there is overwhelming support for AR's by hunters that hunt in AR areas.  And all of you are speaking based on opionion and not first hand experiance of hunting and owning land in a AR zone.  Not one of you hunts in WMU 3 that I have seen. 

[jimbodwb]

Larry, you can't spin the #'s. Your math is incorrect...kinda. 876 is 70% of 1245. And yes, 70% is 30% less than 100%. But that is not how you figure out an increase. You have to divide the DIFFERENCE of the 2 #'s by the original #. Burmjohn was correct in his calculation.

I love how a simple debate on whether putting a restriction on what type of adult deer you can can shoot turned into math class. This is a great site and I am glad I found it. By the way, I am still sticking with my opinion that hunting is not all about the antlers and the current 3" on one side rule is just fine. I would never shoot a deer that small until the last day of the season because I would like to try to get a bigger body sized deer. But if that is my only chance of putting meat in the freezer (and ultimately that is what I am trying to do) bye bye unicorn!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Thehunter---To satisfy my curiousity---wht do you think caused this problem down there. I could understand if the folks in the high peaks region of the Daks or even the Catskills to some extent wanted this. From what I can tell from airial views the regions has quite a few crop areas and fairly wide tracts of woods. Theere doesn't look like all that much State land in the region, from what I can tell from the DEC's map.

What had caused it? Do you guys have that much hunting pressure down there?

[Fairgame]

Alot of hunting preasure and very little farmland if any.  It is all private land divided into small lots from 5 to 200 acres and of course sometimes more but not very many large tracks.  Many of the lots are on the smaller side being 30 acres or less. Most of the people that own land in the area i'm in live somewhere else and use their property only for recreational purposes like hunting and fishing.  With all the hunters in the woods it seemed like the only bucks surviving were the button bucks.  It was really horrible.  The chances of seeing any type of rack was almost impossible. 

This has honeslty changed now.  We are seeing alot of yearling bucks now plus some nice racked deer.  The opportunity to actually harvest a legal buck has definitly increased in my eyes.

Before ARs were in the area I would get mad for being denied a dmp cause my chances of getting deer was cut dramatically.  Now I could care less.  Whether its bow rifle or muzzleloader chances of harvesting have definitely increased.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have hunted the Daks a lot of years and have gone seasons without seeing bucks....I know they are there. but that has the benefit of vast tracts of land. Almost wish the pressure was higher up there to move them around a bit.

Have you had a chance to hunt other areas of NY....central or western?

[burmjohn]

I've only hunted 3J, 3H, and 3M - in 3J where I spent 99% of my last 15+ years, I too used to go seasons with out seeing a buck.

[steve863]

I don't think that anyone should discount the fact that there are FEWER hunters out there these days.  With more hunting pressure in the old days one was bound to see fewer bucks.  I don't hunt very far from these AR units.  The number of people out hunting these days is nothing compared to the way it was 30 or more years ago.  Land access is a critical reason why fewer people are out hunting these regions.  Years ago bucks were pushed into hard to reach places.  Those hunters who went into these places had a chance of getting them.  Those who hunted near roads didn't see squat!  These days there are less and less reasons for deer to move into these hard to reach places with fewer hunters pushing them, thus people in many places are seeing more deer AND bucks.  To give credit to AR's alone is not looking at the whole picture of how things are today compared to yesteryear.

[Fairgame]

I have never hunted any of the central or western NY for deer.  For years before ARs we use to put out trail cameras and never see any bucks on it except for the yearling buck.  I cant say that anymore.  Being just about elbow to elbow with your next door neighbor hunting in these areas was not giving any of these bucks a chance to grow.  The preasure is high and nowhere for these animals to go except in front of a hunter.  Good cause you would see deer running around but bad in the sense that a buck honestly had almost no chance to make it to an older age.

I would love to oneday have the opportunity to see what its like in other parts of the state like western or northern NY, but being that my dad is my hunting partner and we are always together during the hunting season I choose for now to stay at my own place to keep my dad around hunting with me.  Thats more important to me than anything else.  Since we have our own place he doesnt feel the need to hunt anywhere but our place and as long as he is around I stick with him.  My dad has been waiting for the right opportunity at a nice buck for 3 years and refuses to shoot anything that is small cause he sees the possibility and I hope this year is the year for him cause some nice bucks are definitly around this year from what we can see on our trail cameras.  He is waiting for a rack buck and it would be his first in all these years of hunting.