Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[erussell]

PA hunters aren't leaving in droves there retiring and dieing in droves. The old guard is going out and the new is coming in.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/whitetails/2009/03/hunting-license-sales-rebound-pennsylvania

http://www.ammoland.com/2010/07/08/increased-hunting-license-sales-the-success-of-families-afield/

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07315/832774-358.stm

Ok - but what about the important part of my post.

Article is from 2004 -just 3 years into the program. My understanding is that now, 6 years later,  they have not come close to that 3.5 average age. And the buck take continues to plumment.

This demonstrates any kind of success?

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/outdoors/s_655288.html

"Hunters have a far better chance of shooting a record-book buck  today than ever before," Adams said. "To go from most of the state's  counties having produced zero or one record-book buck to where we are  now, it's a dramatic difference."

That's not to say record-class bucks are roaming all over the woods.  Charles Alsheimer, a nationally-recognized whitetail expert, said in  one recent article that — given all of the stress factors that exist —  "it is difficult to find 150-inch bucks in the wild. In many places,  few, if any, exist."

Such animals are "truly a freak of nature," he added.

But there must be at least some out there. Pennsylvania archers have been finding them, especially locally.

Of the top 10 typical and top 10 non-typical bucks taken by bowmen,  11 have been killed since 2000. Seven of them have come from Allegheny  County alone. That includes the top typical, taken in Allegheny County  in 2004 by Michael Nicola of Waterford, and the top non-typical, taken  in Allegheny County 2007 by Gerald Simkonis of Washington.

But big bucks can come from anywhere, Adams said. And hunters all  across the state have a better chance of running into a big buck now  than they have for decades.

"We have far more bucks reaching 2 1/2, 3 1/2, even 4 1/2 years old  and older now. Because of that, they're able to express more of their  antler growth potential," Adams said.

"In most places, hunters may not see the numbers of deer they once  did. But they can see more bucks, older bucks and bigger bucks. It's a  great situation for our deer and our hunters."

[erussell]

NY has awesome potential to grow massive bucks if given the opportunity to reach a decent age. With that said I'm not so naive to think they will be running all over the place but it will at least give us a chance to shoot something at least in the 130's. Here are just some of the biggest killed recently from NY compared with Pa recent kills

WHITETAIL (TYPICAL)

  171 6/8 Orleans, NY Donald P. McKay 2008

  162 1/8 Chautauqua, NY Ron D. Madison 2007

  161 4/8 Monroe, NY William E. Ladd 2008

  WHITETAIL (NON-TYPICAL)

  221 Niagara, NY Keith A. LeVick 2007

 

  WHITETAIL (TYPICAL)

  171 4/8 Forest, PA Jeffrey A. Micco 2008

  167 5/8 Beaver, PA David J. Zagorski 2008

  161 4/8 Venango, PA Daniel J. Sumosky 2008

  WHITETAIL (NON-TYPICAL)209 1/8 Allegheny, PA Gerald R. Simkonis 2007

  195 3/8 Allegheny, PA C. Bruce Stickley 2007

  188 3/8 Northumberland, PA Steve L. Butler 2007

  188 1/8 Clarion, PA Eric J. Dobrowski 2007                     

[gjs4]

ARs may not be the answer but they sure beat 60-70% of our harvest being 1.5 or less.......

[SteveMcD]

Why pick the fruit before it is ripe? I think where Antler Restrictions have been implemented there have been nothing but positive results, in the deer herd, quality of deer taken and hunter satisfaction, after a year or so when the benefits begin to pay off. I also like the fact that areas with Antler Restrictions attract a higher caliber hunter (other than the brown down crowd). 

But, I am also in favor of "Home Rule" . What works well in one Region or WMU may not at all work well in another. It depends.

[Doc]

Why pick the fruit before it is ripe? I think where Antler Restrictions have been implemented there have been nothing but positive results, in the deer herd, quality of deer taken and hunter satisfaction, after a year or so when the benefits begin to pay off. I also like the fact that areas with Antler Restrictions attract a higher caliber hunter (other than the brown down crowd). 

But, I am also in favor of "Home Rule" . What works well in one Region or WMU may not at all work well in another. It depends.

Well, we seem to have a few articles referred to in this thread that seem dispute some of that. Frankly I don't know one way or another. I haven't had the case proven to me one way or another. Also, I have to admit that as a priority, the issue of AR sits very, very, very low on my list of things that I would like to have the DEC studying or implementing. In terms of importance, I don't really see the issue as being anything other than some tiny insignificant item way way down on my wishlist. What I don't want to have happen is for the DEC to start jumping onto every fad management idea that comes along with a fancy sales job, especially those things that have more than one differing expert opinions involved.

Doc

[gjs4]

It is interesting to see at least 41% approval on here yet the foes are the only ones posting........ you guys better hurry up and shoot those fawns before someone holds you accountable on knowing what it is you fling lead at

[SteveB]

ARs may not be the answer but they sure beat 60-70% of our harvest being 1.5 or less.......

In the 3 wmu's around me, just under 60% of the 1.5 bucks are 6 or better and probably close to 90% of the 2.5 are 6 or better. I just don't see how the mandatory targeting of these young bucks while letting the spkikes and 4 go can possibly make a statistical positive difference. The reports from Mi indicate it may actually decrease rack size.

[SteveMcD]

You are right there, Doc. I'd rather see a more liberal age structure for when our kids can begin hunting. And they (DEC) also needs to expand the Black Bear range - which they have been dragging their knuckles on the ground for at least a couple years now.

One thing is for sure. The DEC can never be accused of jumping into anything quickly! 

[SteveB]

erussell - Am I missing in that article where they show the stat's backing up that the 3.5 year old average for bucks has been reached that the 2003 article claimed was going to happen?

Also might want to take a look at the actual buck take in the early 2000's compared to the last couple years. Also look at the huge number of camps for sale and the hunting supported business that have failed threw out the northern Pa mountain regions. A few more entries in a record book doesn't come close to making up for what they have lost.

[gjs4]

Kids should have free reign their first couple years.

The spike debates, and overall trophy decline....all make sense- Yes! BUT, in NY the reason we dont have more big guys running around is not genetics it is age! Thats where we are screwed up. ARs are flawed but an easy system for most to get....probably the easiest and most sensible system.

There are not that many spikes out there or 3.5 yo 6's....... have any of you hunted michigan? totally different ball game. 

I would model after Ohio......but NY has way too many whiney gun hunters.....and you could happily shoot spikes there...or Booners.....

[Larry]

here's something to think about all the New York deer from Erussell post didn't come out of the AR zone. they all came out of what the DEC calls the lake plains area and allmost all the WMU's have high doe  Populations 

[erussell]

Lets compair NY and PA deer pics from the last 10 yrs then from across the state. PA I think has NY beat.

http://forums.bowsite.com/bstrophy/index.cfm?state=PA

http://forums.bowsite.com/bstrophy/index.cfm?state=NY

[SteveB]

The hunters from Pa posting on bowsite outnumber those from NY by probably 10 to 1. For some reason, the same holds true threw out the net. So to use pics posted on a forum as any type of guage for anything is pretty foolish. And it certainely does not support the claim that the average buck taken in PA is 3.5 as the 2003 article said would result. It certainley also does not address the point Larry made - NY's bigger bucks do not come from AR regions. Skim all the threads at Bowsite Pa for the last couple years and tell us how the majority of hunters like what Pa has done to their herd.

But enough about Pa - how about answering the question I asked:

In the 3 wmu's around me, just under 60% of the 1.5 bucks are 6 or better and probably close to 90% of the 2.5 are 6 or better. I just don't see how the mandatory targeting of these young bucks while letting the spikes and 4 go can possibly make a statistical positive difference. The reports from Ms indicate it may actually decrease rack size.

[Buckstopshere]

Comparing states and not range, topography, strain of whitetails, geography, land use, and other factors is like comparing apples to oranges.

Why not compare Florida to Iowa...?

Too many variables.

For one thing, Allegheny County, Pa. (not spelled right...it should be Allegany County, ha.) is an urban County in Pa. and contains the Pittsburgh Airport. I have flown into it a bunch of times and positively drool over some of the large hilltop acerage surrounded by housing complexes and knowing that there has to be huge sheds on those hillsides.

Now let's compare that Allegheny County to Potter or Tioga County. There, it is not unusual to shoot an antlered six-point that is a yearling and weighs dressed about 100 pounds, or less.

The Potter County Enterprise, a weekly paper has printed a deer hunting special for years and has a weigh-in contest. Usually, of the 100+ bucks that are brought in and weighed on the same scale...many are around the 100-pound mark. And since AR's have been established in Pa., there has been no noticeable change in the pool in antler size or weight, other than what you would expect from the change in the law (no smaller than a six-point.) But they are still yearling bucks.

The old 2003 report, just after AR was first established and before Mr. Alt,  was driven out of Pa., has been revised and alluded to earlier on this thread.

Read the new 10-Year Whitetail plan 2010-2018. It's on the  Pa. Game Commission website. It refutes the conclusions made on the old 2003 report.

One quote from the new Pa. study is very telling:

"An  expanding research base supports the position that antler restrictions  will have minimal impact on future antler development of Pennsylvania‘s  deer herd."

My two cents worth:  if there is some great statistic to "average" all the bucks killed in Pa., maybe they are right...maybe they are right. But to paraphrase: all deer hunting is local. And in the vast woods of Northcentral, Pa., mostly state land, I have seen and believe that the size of the "future antler development" is going to go down...like in Mississippi.

But in the semi-urban, highly managed, AR protected where few hunters dare tred, posted, patrolled, and controlled tighter than a drum, where deer can barely be called "wild," and passed on for years, no doubt, there will be some bonadide "monsters" grown and then "harvested" by some very lucky and well-heeled hunters.

[Larry]

i wouldn't be so sure anyone ever look at best bucks in outdoor news looks like there may be more big bucks out there then some may think. 

[Doewhacker]

i wouldn't be so sure anyone ever look at best bucks in outdoor news looks like there may be more big bucks out there then some may think.

No thats not possible...bucks can't possibly get big with out AR!!!!  haha

[furman_ny]

Makes sense Buckstop, a guy sits in treestand, soon after light a 6" spike walks by, an hour later a small forkhorn passes through, then here comes a nice little basket rack 8 pointer =====boom, legal deer down, but still a year and a halfer, and for sure the one you would want to let go if looking for good genes and bigger racks, which  everyone knows is what AR and QDM guys are after, not a healthier herd. In a way they are kind of shooting themselves in the foot supporting ARs, unless the state passes a 5 on one side, or a minimum spread requirement, which won't happen. Thinking the car insurance companies probably wouldnt be thrilled having every male deer being protected at least two years, and in some cases their whole lives. I myself think the huge amounts of land that are off limits to hunters, game preserves, parks, and town limits to name a few, do quite a good enough job at restricting harvest. I know in areas I hunt, like everywhere else, posted lands outnumber huntable lands by a bunch, many of those lands owned by guys who only come to camps for first weekend of season and are done, one guy in camp gets a buck, maybe they shoot a doe or two, rest of the deer lay tight and live til next year. Thats not taking into account the properties that dont allow any hunting, and owners are against it too, leaving a sanctuary for every deer in the area to retreat to.

[Buckstopshere]

Excellent scenario, Furman. And it happens all over AR-land, hundreds if not thousands of times. No wonder, after years of AR, antler size on state land in Mississippi dropped like a stone. 

[Fairgame]

In heavily hunted areas, does anyone have a better idea on how to let a year and a half old buck walk so that everyone hunting can judge the animal in front of them?.  I am for AR's in my area cause is gives some of the year and a half old bucks a chance to survive.  It has been better than having most of them killed off by the end of the season.  With that said I have seen bigger bucks and older.

I do not shoot any year and a half old bucks even if it is the only thing I see.  I let the basket eight pointers walk cause I know there are bigger ones around.  I am content with letting them walk and not getting anything for the entire hunting season.  I would be happier shooting a doe with the bow than shooting a small buck.  I know of at least fifteen guys in my area that do the same.  Before the AR's were in our area none of us looked at it that way cause a year and a half old buck was probably the only buck you would see.  Some of these animals need a chance to get older in order for us to see any older bucks. 

I'm not shooting monsters, but they are bigger than any deer that I and the other hunters I know have shot in the past since these restrictions came into play.  I honestly wish it was four on one side in our area rather than 3 on one side. so that more deer would have an opportunity to survive. 

[steve863]

I do not shoot any year and a half old bucks even if it is the only thing I see.  I let the basket eight pointers walk cause I know there are bigger ones around.  I am content with letting them walk and not getting anything for the entire hunting season. 

Good for you, but as was pointed out in the other thread a whole mess of 1.5 year old are still getting shot so all these AR supporters may not be practicing what they are preaching.  Besides, if AR supporters are the more avid hunters, who spend way more time in the field than than the weekend warriors who may or may not even get to shoot any deer, then the AR supporters might actually be the ones who are killing the majority of these 1.5 year olds.  I don't care how many of these guys claim they won't shoot at small deer, I think the majority of them WOULD when it comes down to getting a deer or eating a tag.  Waiting for next year is a long time for most people, and I would think most especially for the hunters who plant food plots, set up cameras, etc. all in order to kill that big deer they seem to be so obsessed with.  I'd just like to see these guys explain to there hunting friends why they didn't kill a deer on the land they put so much time, money and effort in, when many of the friends got their deer with way less effort!  BS'ing your way thru it can only get you so far in my honest opinion. 

[erussell]

The hunters from Pa posting on bowsite outnumber those from NY by probably 10 to 1. For some reason, the same holds true threw out the net. So to use pics posted on a forum as any type of guage for anything is pretty foolish. And it certainely does not support the claim that the average buck taken in PA is 3.5 as the 2003 article said would result. It certainley also does not address the point Larry made - NY's bigger bucks do not come from AR regions. Skim all the threads at Bowsite Pa for the last couple years and tell us how the majority of hunters like what Pa has done to their herd.

But enough about Pa - how about answering the question I asked:

In the 3 wmu's around me, just under 60% of the 1.5 bucks are 6 or better and probably close to 90% of the 2.5 are 6 or better. I just don't see how the mandatory targeting of these young bucks while letting the spikes and 4 go can possibly make a statistical positive difference. The reports from Ms indicate it may actually decrease rack size.

So then AR will not decrease your ability to harvest a legal buck in your area while saving two, three and four points  for the following yr along with the odd 6 and 8 and if your lucky 10 point. This increases the amount of deer left over for the following yr. So if you want to shoot a 6 point every yr your more than welcome to. So basically AR would not effect your ability to kill a buck in your area, plus allow more bucks that people aren't sure if there legal  or not  legal to survive the onslaught for another yr for people who prefer to shoot 8's. So if all go's to plan at the very least there will be an increase in the amount of 6's and 8's for more people to shoot instead of just the 1st person to see a buck in an area blasts it and everyone else go's without. Right now just about everyone I know wants to shoot a bigger buck has the mentality that why should I let the spike 3 or 4 point go when my neighbor is just going to shoot them.  I could see how AR would make people think that your deer herds racks are shrinking if you have an increase of young bucks every yr and every one is shooting these small bucks while educating the bigger bucks and making them nocturnal making everyone think there are no big bucks. Now I really have to get back to staining my deck. I had a brilliant idea to build my deck bigger to around 14x32. Now I have to stain it, and a word to the wise if you build a deck that big spend the money and have someone else do the staining it suuuuuuuucccccckkkkkkkssss!!!!!!! Atleast I didn't have enough money to wrap it around the house like I originally planned to do 

[erussell]

Excellent scenario, Furman. And it happens all over AR-land, hundreds if not thousands of times. No wonder, after years of AR, antler size on state land in Mississippi dropped like a stone.

I have hunted in Mississippi and so does everyone who lives in Mississippi. Also Louisiana and Alabama. These states are Massive and Thick and around 70 to 80 degrees during the season. I suspect AR has increased the number of smaller bucks and educated the bigger bucks not to visit the food plots and bait pile which everyone seems to hunt over down there. Which is what I use to do in Alabama because everyone else did. Well one day I walked back into the swamp and low and behold it was thick with massive rubs. So I set up on the rub line and nailed a beautiful 8 point which everyone was amazed about because they don't see a lot of big bucks on the food plots because everyone has food plots and they sit right on them educating the big bucks not to visit till dark. (Which made everyone mad that a Yankee had killed there big buck  ) So the big bucks are there and I would suspect even more now since they lowered how many deer you can shoot now also. When I was hunting there it was 1 buck a day for 4 months ( there season gos until end of January and the rut starts in January in Alabama) And a week of doe where you could kill one doe a day.

[Buckstopshere]

If it came down to the last week of the archery season (as it often does, lol!) and you were on stand and an eight-point buck in full rut came into shooting range in front of your stand... 

there are darn few of us who would not let that arrow fly.

How many of us would say to ourselves, while at full draw, "I shouldn't shoot. That eight-point might be a year and a half old deer, and what would my AR buddy's say, if I shot a yearling?"

How long do you think you are gona live?

Drag that eight-point buck out of the woods and be proud of it!

Is it better to eat tag soup?

I share my venison with family and friends as a celebration. Share it with the kids so they will be hunters when they grow up. Tag soup is a difficult bowl to pass...

Crazy.

How many of us can truthfully tell the difference between a yearling and a two-and-a half year old on the hoof, in a hunting situation?

I've killed better than a hundred of them and I still can't tell until I split the lips for sure. There is a lot of variables in whitetails...just like people. Some are small for their age, a few are huge for their age.

But where I hunt the tendency is to shoot the buck with the most points. I think that needs to be changed in some parts like here where we are overrun with dinks.

Reminds me of a farm pond where all the bass that are over 12 inches are kept. What is going to happen? The pond is going to be full of dink bass...

Same thing happens in the deer woods, but on fast forward in the pond.

And erussel: I feel your pain (knees!) lol

But I just can't resist saying that sometimes our grandiose schemes carry consequences and have outcomes that we did not forsee...such as AR's.

[Fairgame]

I do not shoot any year and a half old bucks even if it is the only thing I see.  I let the basket eight pointers walk cause I know there are bigger ones around.  I am content with letting them walk and not getting anything for the entire hunting season. 

  Waiting for next year is a long time for most people, and I would think most especially for the hunters who plant food plots, set up cameras, etc. all in order to kill that big deer they seem to be so obsessed with.  I'd just like to see these guys explain to there hunting friends why they didn't kill a deer on the land they put so much time, money and effort in, when many of the friends got their deer with way less effort!  BS'ing your way thru it can only get you so far in my honest opinion.

Just because someone puts in food plots sets up trail cameras to TRY to increase their chances doesn't guarantee anything.  What your forgetting is that its called hunting not killing..  I have posted it in the past that I live in California and own property in NY that I hunt on.  I spend more time in the woods of NY than most hunters that live in NY.  I set up trail cameras and everything else you probably think that every trophy hunter does.  Most years I dont get anything, and that is by choice.  I dont have to KILL in order to be happy with my hunting season.  If killing is what you expect every year slaughter a cow.  I'm not BSing anyone on what I write.  I dont need to make anyone happy when I hunt except myself.  I dont need to explain to anyone why I didnt get anything, but if someone asked all I have to say is that I chose not to shoot.  not cause I didnt see anything.  I could probably tag out in every season of the hunting season but I never do and its by choice.  I think your bsing yourself If you think that shooting the first deer you see is hunting.  In my eyes its killing. 

[furman_ny]

Fairgame, that is by all means your choice and you can do as you please, gotta disagree with ya on the killing part. I by no means shoot the first deer I see, but I take my fair share each and every year, and will continue to do so. I know several guys who do it same way you do, they pretty much have turned into deer watchers instead of hunters. Unless I am missing something, we as hunters are supposed to be the tool the DEC uses to keep deer herds in check, and if we dont, they will do it in some other way, like hiring shooters to thin them at night over bait===now that is killing. Or they would just hand out thousands more nuisance permits, farmers would get a couple guys to shoot them in mid summer and throw them in a ditch===killing.Im thinking if everyone went one year without shooting ANY deer, there would be a substantial winter kill, you want to walk around your property in the spring looking at deer carcasses laying everywhere, I doubt it. Deer do not have a corner grocery store to go to when the food runs out like we do, they have to compete with squirrel, turkey and raccoons, to name a few for food, and most landowners wont let people hunt these other critters in fear of them scaring "the big one" off their property, so every time someone shoots a deer near your property, it inevitably will make the remaining deer that much more healthy. Either we do it or mother nature will. and I think that anyone who sits out there in freezing cold, heat, rain, snow, whatever weather, buys their license and shoots a deer is hunting. Also, Im thinking YOU would kill the first deer you saw EVERY year if it was a large buck, if not you might as well take headphones and a camera in the woods instead of a weapon.