Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[SteveB]

The chart shown looks like slight increases only in 2.5 and 3.5 while the 1.5 is down significantly and a major drop in overal buck numbers. And the 1.5's that are being taken are meeting the AR requirements for points, but are still 1.5 with most likely little basket racks. So you are letting spikes and 4's walk while killing a lot of 1.5 with the best potential for a SLIGHT increase in 2.5 and 3.5 bucks - both of which are still far from mature. Would like to see the past records for the number of 4.5 plus bucks taken vs now. I'm betting the difference is statistically insignificant. Which means AR in those units are not letting bucks get to mature - all they are doing is allowing far few bucks to be taken and padding the rack measurement a bit for those that are.

And down the line will most likely lead to the same as MS - a decrease in rack size of the bucks past 1.5 compared to pre AR.

[SteveB]

I would bet if there was a vote, majority would go for it .... so I say let the democratic process prevail ..... at least for a test period of ...let's say .... 5 years?  :-\

I would guess that those that voted nay, after 5 years most would want them kept for another 5 .....

I don't think management decisions should be done as a popularity contest. Any radical changes need to have sound science behind them. Major questions are starting to surface from places like Mississippi where Ar has been for several years. The DEC has said after the trial program, that no biological need can be established at this time for AR. Reasons like "give it a try and see what happens" and "it ought to work" are not sounds ones for making major changes. Especially when the hard numbers from the NY trial offer less then spectacular results for getting bucks to true maturity.

[Tony Sorrento]

I would bet if there was a vote, majority would go for it .... so I say let the democratic process prevail ..... at least for a test period of ...let's say .... 5 years?  :-\

I would guess that those that voted nay, after 5 years most would want them kept for another 5 .....

I don't think management decisions should be done as a popularity contest. Any radical changes need to have sound science behind them. Major questions are starting to surface from places like Mississippi where Ar has been for several years. The DEC has said after the trial program, that no biological need can be established at this time for AR. Reasons like "give it a try and see what happens" and "it ought to work" are not sounds ones for making major changes. Especially when the hard numbers from the NY trial offer less then spectacular results for getting bucks to true maturity.

Sound science??? That's a bit of an oxi-moron when it comes to deer management in NY 

The bottom line IMO is that they work in the states that have always used them ...so they work .. now that is sound science.

and MY bottom line with it all .... I am gonna go out in a few months and have a blast and kill some deer no matter WHAT happens with AR's .... if they have a vote, I am voting for them and will STILL have awesome times in the deer woods ....and if they NEVER come to NY, I will still have a great time deer hunting ..... and when it's all said and done .... I WILL have a full freezer, Lord willing, at the end of every season.  ;D

[SteveB]

and MY bottom line with it all .... I am gonna go out in a few months and have a blast and kill some deer no matter WHAT happens with AR's .... if they have a vote, I am voting for them and will STILL have awesome times in the deer woods ....and if they NEVER come to NY, I will still have a great time deer hunting ..... and when it's all said and done .... I WILL have a full freezer, Lord willing, at the end of every season.  http://huntingny.com/forums/Smileys/akyhne/grin.gif[/img]

Other then the AR (and I do that on a personal level) same plan I have - sounds like

a great one.

Good Luck!!!!

[Tony Sorrento]

and MY bottom line with it all .... I am gonna go out in a few months and have a blast and kill some deer no matter WHAT happens with AR's .... if they have a vote, I am voting for them and will STILL have awesome times in the deer woods ....and if they NEVER come to NY, I will still have a great time deer hunting ..... and when it's all said and done .... I WILL have a full freezer, Lord willing, at the end of every season.  http://huntingny.com/forums/Smileys/akyhne/grin.gif[/img]

Other then the AR (and I do that on a personal level) same plan I have - sounds like

a great one.

Good Luck!!!!

Same to you, my friend!!! 

[wztirem]

Pointed Reactions to Antler Restrictions - NRAHuntersrights.org, NRA  Apr 5, 2010 ... I've been a resident of New York for 10 years now and still travel to PA yearly paying over $100 a year because the antler restrictions have ...

www.nrahuntersrights.org/Article.aspx?id=3204 - Cached    Pretty good read, if one is interested.

[Buckstopshere]

Good article. Thanks for posting!

[sampotter]

Ideally it would be a maturity level restriction rather than pure points or width. Unfortunately ARs are the most accurate way to do it. Age is harder to judge than counting tines. In the end, all the arguments that ARs take away opportunities from hunters tell me that hunters are not in the woods for the right reasons. If success is measured by your death toll then you need to take a step back and ask yourself if you are a hunter or a killer. Killers need not apply. I spent endless hours in the woods last season- never had a chance at a mature buck. Let a nice 3yr old 8pt walk by the last day of bow season. Still loved evry minute of it and I know that when I get lucky enough to have a mature buck come by it will mean that much more, but it won't make or break me.

[Fairgame]

Thank You Sam.  I got eaten up by saying what you said.

[Doc]

And for good reason. Again, the word killing and killer spit out like you would hear it said by any anti-hunter. Let's not try to deny that killing is a part of hunting and it is part of the reason for us to be carrying life-taking implements afield instead of cameras. Hunting is not a catch and release activity. I understand you are trying to emphasize the selectivity aspect of animals we hunt, but don't do that at the loss of honesty in what we do. Do not lose sight of the fact that if you take any animal, large or small, you kill it and by definition become a killer. That's not a part of hunting that we need apologize for or feel bad about. And there is no need to make it sound like an animal rights billboard. Those people are doing just fine without our help.

[Chevy]

I'm conflicted on this issue. I might be where Sam in now as a hunter (passing up small 8pters) but is took me a long while to get here with many spikes, fours and sixes under my belt as a young hunter. I couldn't imagine passing up a nice 4pt in my second year of deer hunting. 25 years later I can watch and enjoy as those deer pass by unscathed and wish everyone else did the same, but I realize that might not be fair. 

[Fairgame]

Yes killing is part of hunting, But there is more to hunting than just killing or so I dont say it again harvesting of an animal.  If time is spent out in the field and you let a four pointer walk it doesnt mean your not going to get anything.  If that animal survives the season it means that next year you will probably see him as an older deer and possibly another four pointer also.  Giving these deer an opportunity go grow a little older has changed where I hunt.  And this is my opinion on where I hunt.  I am seeing plenty of year and a half old bucks running around when before they werent around as they are now and having the opportunity to see a few nice racks every year.  Anyone that hunts with me knows, I never put anyone down for shooting a small buck, I congradulate them on any deer they kill. The fact that these AR's were put into place in an area that needed it has only improved the hunting.  This is not something I read in an article,  this is my opinion and for me the bucks I have harvested in the last few years are proof to me that its working. 

[jimbodwb]

I think that if a fellow hunter wants to let a 3 1/2 yo 8 point walk on the last day of the season then that is what that hunter has paid his hunting license fee to do. If another hunter wants to shoot and kill a spike at 7:15 am on opening day then that is what that hunter has paid his hunting license fee to do. I shot my first deer last year and it would not have happened if there were AR in my area because his headgear was too small.(I have tried to post a pic in the Last years deer section but it wont let me) In the future I might think twice about shooting a smaller deer but I will never base my decision on his headgear. I look at body size and I will always take a doe first if possible. We should all support our fellow ethical hunters in whatever they decide makes them happy in the field. I have to agree with Sampotter in that success should not be based solely on your death toll but it also should not be based solely on the inches of antlers the deer has. Success should be based on the personal level of enjoyment a hunter gets while afield. 

[Doc]

I think that if a fellow hunter wants to let a 3 1/2 yo 8 point walk on the last day of the season then that is what that hunter has paid his hunting license fee to do. If another hunter wants to shoot and kill a spike at 7:15 am on opening day then that is what that hunter has paid his hunting license fee to do. I shot my first deer last year and it would not have happened if there were AR in my area because his headgear was too small.(I have tried to post a pic in the Last years deer section but it wont let me) In the future I might think twice about shooting a smaller deer but I will never base my decision on his headgear. I look at body size and I will always take a doe first if possible. We should all support our fellow ethical hunters in whatever they decide makes them happy in the field. I have to agree with Sampotter in that success should not be based solely on your death toll but it also should not be based solely on the inches of antlers the deer has. Success should be based on the personal level of enjoyment a hunter gets while afield.

There ...... you just said it all. It really is exactly that simple, isn't it.

[Doc]

I know I come off as having a bit of a short fuse when it comes to people trying to push their point by calling their opponents "killers", but for the life of me I can't figure out why one hunter would ever call another one a killer when the very nature of hunting involves killing. It really makes no sense to me and it seems there must be a better way of making a point than by conjuring up some weird definition of something we all do as a natural result of hunting.

But I do apologize for jumping out of my chair everytime it occurs. It just seems to be one of those things that always pushes my hot-button. :-[

Doc

[Fairgame]

Doc, you couldn't of said it any better.  "hunting involves killing".  Its not the only thing involved when we go hunting.  That's the point I was trying to make. 

I apologize for making your blood boil.

[Doc]

Doc, you couldn't of said it any better.  "hunting involves killing".  Its not the only thing involved when we go hunting.  That's the point I was trying to make. 

I apologize for making your blood boil.

Lol ...... I'll get over it. I've got some pills that take care of that.  ;D

[Doewhacker]

Doc there is an interesting article in Outdoor Life this month titled.. "Trophy Deer, How the craze hurts hunting"  It is all about the untold down side to AR and this obsession with big bucks, you would love it. I looked but its not available online, just in print.

[biggamefish]

page 20 says it all in a good way.  Hunting should be the enjoyment that one gets put of it.  There own personal goals to acheive.  Nobody Gov. DEC or Joe Shmo should be able to say what you can or can't shoot.

[furman_ny]

Sounds like a good article to me, and well said jimbod.

[Doc]

Doc there is an interesting article in Outdoor Life this month titled.. "Trophy Deer, How the craze hurts hunting"  It is all about the untold down side to AR and this obsession with big bucks, you would love it. I looked but its not available online, just in print.

I'll see if I can get the latest copy. It's funny how these kinds of articles are starting to pop up and how the subject of extreme trophyism is now being talked about on TV. I realize that hunters have always wanted to get the biggest and the best. That's nothing new. What is new is the idea that you are an abject failure if you get anything less than a buck worthy of being entered in some book somewhere. That's the idea that's being drummed into today's hunters, and I believe that because that is so unreasonable, it is one of the reasons that hunter numbers are declining. I'm not saying it's the only reason or even the main one, but I do believe that it is a contributing reason, and it's so unneccessary.

Doc

[sampotter]

Don't get me wrong- I did kill 2 does in CT and 2 does in NY last year, so by definition I am a killer, but when I used  "Killer" previously I meant someone who is more proud of how many they killed, not by what means or what the quality level is. I was that kind of person a few years back- before I started bowhunting, which taught me to be patient. I learned more about deer in my 1st year of bowhunting than in all my previous 21 years of life. I can't say I support ARs. Shoot what you want to shoot. However, it burns me up when my dad or my neighbor shoots a forkhorn right away (yep, got their buck) and then throws the rack in the back of the garage never to be seen again. Then they spend the rest of the season wondering why they never get a chance at a mature buck..? These types are everywhere-I'm directly descended from one. My old man darn near disowns me if I tell him I passed up a 6pt buck in the Adirondacks (I enjoy getting him fired up though)- "any buck is a good buck" he says. The difference is that he's a live buck in my hands, dead buck in my dad's. I thinks the 5pt he shot there 2yrs ago is still in the apple tree in the backyard getting chewed on by squirrels. He killed to "get his buck", didn't matter that it barely had antlers and didn't care what happened to the rack after he showed it off to his buddies. The last immature buck I shot was 6-7 years ago. I tracked a 2yr old 5pt buck in the Adirondacks for 6hrs- came up with the deer in the end. That rack hangs in the living room with the others. Whenever someone asks why I have that there I get to retell my story (gets better every time). I have since tracked other bucks that turned ot to be small- let them walk. Just part of maturing as a hunter I guess.

My motto: Shoot whatever buck you want so long as the rack ends up on your wall, don't just shoot to "get your buck". It should mean something to you-it meant something to the deer that wore it.

[Doewhacker]

"I was that kind of person a few years back- before I started bowhunting"

Bingo, that right there is it... why was it okay for you to go through that phase and not some one else? Different people go through different phases, some don't come out of it and some turn into guys like you. But it is their choice. I would love to see pics of the deer that other AR guys have of some of their first few deer. I guarentee that they ain't all wall hangers. I know you ain't that way Sam as you have just said. And what is so wrong with being proud of killing alot of deer so long as they don't go to waste?

[ELMER J. FUDD]

"If you leave inferior spikes to breed they will produce more deer with a genetic disposition to produce inferior racks."

How do all of you feel about this statment?

[Chevy]

"If you leave inferior spikes to breed they will produce more deer with a genetic disposition to produce inferior racks."

How do all of you feel about this statment?

I'm not sure that is true because a spike can grow into a 160" ten point given time to grow which means the genetics of that spike were just fine.