Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[steve863]

You are Brown its Down.  No questioning that.  So I should let them go for you.

Yeah, just like YOU want me to let the 1.5 year olds go for YOU so you can shoot them next year for a better overall hunting experience!! hahahaha!  I am MORE than happy taking one deer a year, no matter what size it is.    If I get a doe permit, two is my maximum since that is all the venison I really will use.  Any other tag I still might have will remain stuck to the back tag.  So you can do the math if you are capable of who wants more brown to be down between us. 

[wztirem]

You are Brown its Down.  No questioning that.  So I should let them go for you.

Yeah, just like YOU want me to let the 1.5 year olds go for YOU so you can shoot them next year for a better overall hunting experience!! hahahaha!  I am MORE than happy taking one deer a year, no matter what size it is.    If I get a doe permit, two is my maximum since that is all the venison I really will use.  Any other tag I still might have will remain stuck to the back tag.  So you can do the math if you are capable of who wants more brown to be down between us.

Perhaps we just send to him all our unused tags to satisfy his blood lust and need for excitement!

[steve863]

You are Brown its Down.  No questioning that.  So I should let them go for you.

Yeah, just like YOU want me to let the 1.5 year olds go for YOU so you can shoot them next year for a better overall hunting experience!! hahahaha!  I am MORE than happy taking one deer a year, no matter what size it is.    If I get a doe permit, two is my maximum since that is all the venison I really will use.  Any other tag I still might have will remain stuck to the back tag.  So you can do the math if you are capable of who wants more brown to be down between us.

Perhaps we just send to him all our unused tags to satisfy his blood lust and need for excitement!

Careful there WZ, you might be accused of being a "brown and it's down" guy like me for sending him the tags, eventhough HE is the one who will be doing the killing! 

[Fairgame]

I doubt he is starving cause hes not able to get a deer.  It is my right to shoot what the DEC allows.  And that is the problem is.  The DEC allows you to shoot all these animals and thats why people want and like ARs. Just because it is limiting some of the yearling bucks from being shot.  Once the DEC gets it straight is when we all could have a better hunt and shoot what we want with a better limit on how many we can take.  The only reason ARs from what I see are not accepted by some is because of the word restriction.  That puts the fear in alot of hunters.

Just so you guys know.  In the last 5 years I have taken only 3 bucks and no does, mainly by choice.  You want to send me your tags, I'll take them and throw them in the garbage.  Never had the need for more tags.  Never had the need to fill all, Believe me by choice.  There is nothing wrong with shooting more deer cause the law allows it.  Thats why it needs to change.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am going to try something here but it may take a few posts to do it....I am a numbers guy...prove it to me. I have been shewing over this 5 gallon pail of and environment scenario. fixed managed deer herd at capacity (desired level). All this talk about numbers of bucks increasing and to me that means the does have to decrease to get to the magic 1 to 1 a lot are posting. Now my tought was ....if the number of breeding does keep getting reduced....it has to get a drop in the overall herd. So here goes and i tried to stay objective.

Welcome to Hunting Ny Island.

We brought in 100,000 whitetails of various ages (the make up doesn't matter come to find out)...and since we got a hell of a deal on the deer the make up had to be 1 to 7...buck to doe. Since the guys like me that have been against AR's are just tired of debating til we are blue in the face...we gave in. Here are the rules

1-  50% of the bucks will be shot every season

2-  No shootig 1-1/2 year old bucks

3-  no fawns killed

4-  2 part system 1 week of buck season------followed by 1 week of doe season

5-  Doe harvests will be set after the buck season to maintain the 100,000 maximum population of our island.

Here is what happened...surprised me...I have the active spread sheets if anyone wants to verify my formulas and math.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

So once ther was a level out...it seems to maintain. with an age structure that increases. ??? ??? ???

We obviously have perfect conditions on our island since there was no winter kill, disease, predators, cars.

The does were perfect and averaged on fawn per each doe and a perfect split of buck doe fawns were born

OK...now both sides have at me...lol

[First-light]

Any woman on that island?

[Fairgame]

Seems nice!.  What formulas you use to create your charts?  Was it the one the DEC uses to issue DMPs at the moment?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Nope...no women and no DEC formulas...lol. Was actually trying to prove a diminishing herd from saving young bucks, pushing the buck doe ratio to 1 to 1 and letting the breeding does bare the burden to hit the maximum population. Surprised me....didn't even have to fudge numbers...lol

[Brushbuster]

I joined this forum just to warn everyone not to do what Pa did.

I started hunting there in 1971 and our camp had some old timers that hunted Potter and Tioga when they took a hundred grouse in a day...and the trout limit was just about that too.

Any ways they knew in the 70's and 80' and 90's why things were going downhill and there was two basic reasons.

First was because this whole area was pretty much clear cut in the last century and during the 1900's you had lots of farms with lots of grain production that fed lots of deer.  Even the areas that were not farmed grew over with thick, secondary cover with lots of browse.

Second was because of doe hunting.  In the 70's none of these men who were all WWII vets would even consider killing a doe.  They never posted their land but when the doe carnage started, you would see either no posts or you would see "No Doe Hunting". 

So by the time 2000 came around and most of the old timers were gone, so were the bucks because the corn was gone, the browse was gone , and the does were gone.  And all these storie of bigger racks is nonsense.  Look at some old time meat poles in these camps.  No one shot spikes cause they looked like does which no one shot.  All the bucks were nice 6's and 8's or better.

We quit hunting there but some of our acquaintences are still sticking it out but they are seeing more bear than deer on opening day as well as more coyote than deer on opening day.  That is not deer hunting - that is a waste of time.

So there you have it.  Kill a doe, and you killed next year's buck, and the year after, and the year after.

Also, we need to promote logging and corn production.  We need secondary growth next to fields of crops if we want to see a healthy herd.  There are too many fields that have gone to seed.  We need a program that will provide an incentive to land owners to really make them want to return these fields to production.  Corn is over $5/bushel and I hope that helps.

[Doc]

Anybody ever wonder about the effects of hacking so heavily on the doe populations and how that impacts the numbers of future bucks? It is the does that actually produce the bucks isn't it?  

It seems to me that there is a whole lot more to this herd management than just counting antler points, and trying to get to a 1:1 gender ratio. There is an awful lot of uncalculated interactions that come with every new management fad and I don't think there are a whole lot of people (if any) who really understand them all.

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I think about it all...that is why I went through the spreadsheet exercise...I know that was a perfect situation with no outside forces...but I didn't think the numbers would even sustain like that.

[nyantler]

Doc.. believe me .. I have been involved with the deer management movement since 1994 and the people that are involved are WAY involved. They do tons of research and keeps accurate records. Although New York is in the infant stage when it comes to management... other states have been doing research for decades. In genereal we know the model works... usually not showing marked results for a few years after initiating the program as the age classes start to develope in the buck population. I do agree that watching how many does you take from the herd is very important and over harvesting definitley can defeat the purpose. The guys who are truly educated in this know their stuff... but like anything else its an ongoing process with adjustments that need to be made depending on habitat availabilty and current populations. It is a good thing to have concerns about certain aspects because it keeps us thinking so that decisions are made to help better a management plan.

[Brushbuster]

Models dont work.

"Experts" dont know what works either.  Pennsylvania is proof of that.

The only thing that works is no doe hunting, no Big Woods, and lots of grain production and that is based on the very great hunting we had in the 50's and 60's.

Again, if you shoot a doe this year, you killed this years buck, next years buck, and the buck for the year after.

[bubba]

I doubt he is starving cause hes not able to get a deer.  It is my right to shoot what the DEC allows.  And that is the problem is.  The DEC allows you to shoot all these animals and thats why people want and like ARs. Just because it is limiting some of the yearling bucks from being shot.  Once the DEC gets it straight is when we all could have a better hunt and shoot what we want with a better limit on how many we can take.  The only reason ARs from what I see are not accepted by some is because of the word restriction.  That puts the fear in alot of hunters.

Just so you guys know.  In the last 5 years I have taken only 3 bucks and no does, mainly by choice.  You want to send me your tags, I'll take them and throw them in the garbage.  Never had the need for more tags.  Never had the need to fill all, Believe me by choice.  There is nothing wrong with shooting more deer cause the law allows it.  Thats why it needs to change.

actually it is not your right to take what they say, it is a privelege.  And if you mail al your unused tags, that is illegal, so you could lose the privelege. 

[Fairgame]

I will respond when I could understand what you are saying.  Otherwise it sounds like jibberish like always.

[bubba]

if you do not understand hunting is aprivelege not a right I feel sorry for you pretty simple, but I doubt the deer near you are in trouble anyway as I recall you shoot 4 or 5 times anyway

[Fairgame]

I also remember calling you a real idiot and i'm doing it again, IDIOT!  Plain and simple,  You dont add up to more than just an IDIOT. Never will.

[bubba]

such a mature thought out insightful intelligent response.  I know it will take a while to respond because you will have to look up those big words. Ill be here if you ever do get through them all.

[Fairgame]

I'm not going to get into it.  You are on my ignore list and I don't know why I chose to read your post.  Even though I don't know you I still stand by what I believe(that your an idiot).  If you need me to write this slower let me know.

[SteveB]

Bubba - give him a break.

I have him stretched out in another AR thread ;D .

[Fairgame]

With so called proof from another state!

[bubba]

you repied quicker that I thought.  I bet you didnt look up the words did you? Come in it is ok to say I didnt understand what you typed.  Come in just say it you will feel better. Huntitng is a privelege and it is illegal to give your extra tags to other people.  That was all I said Was that easy enough?

[Fairgame]

If that was all you said. I wouldn't of called you an idiot.  But thats not all you said.  You know what you said.  You try to push buttons on other things.  I know I cant take or give my tags out.  I dont need you to tell me.  I also told you the last time to push your phsycology crap somewhere else.

[bubba]

I guess your ignore button doesnt work?