Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Doc]

I am still waiting for anyone to show me where whitetail have starved - other than in a late and heavy spring snow where their instincts force them to yard up (for no good reason).

Check in with the DEC. They monitor the effects of starvation on road-killed deer (marrow checks), and I'm sure they would be happy to educate you on incidents of starvation along with those that result in death, as well as the dangers of over-browsing, habitat destruction, etc. due to over-population. I think I probably would take their word over yours on matters of that sort and they have published volumes on the the subject. But if you don't want to read "volumes" on the subject, just invest a phone call and see what they have to say on the subject.

Starvation is a natural part of the whitetail life to one extent or another. It is always just a question of whether they can outlast the winter even in the best of years. Some do and some don't. And yes, excessive populations that over-browse their habitat can precipitate massive starvation losses. I've seen that personally as I described previously.

By the way, starvation is starvation whether it occurs in yarding conditions or not as well as regardless of weather. The basic cause for starvation is lack of food whether that lack of food is aggravated by yarding, extended or extra-harsh winters, extreme environments or whatever. These are all normal environmental and behavioral conditions that deer must cope with. So there's no point in discounting those conditions in this discussion. 

Doc

[bubba]

this guy smells like an anti to me.  Trying to stir crap.Best thing to do is ignore his idiotic remarks.

[lsnydes]

There seems to be quite a discussion and difference of opinion about the existing deer population on this thread for AR restictions. I have read where some are saying that deer populations are at an all time high in NYS. This is the best of times. More deer per square mile now than ever.

Others are giving these gruesome tales of severe overpopulation in the 70's and 80's. Doesn't overpopulation and starvation deaths equate to more deer back then??? There was more land back then for deer also. A lot less development than today.

I hunted in the 70's and 80's and saw more deer. We had doe permits, but you needed 3 people on 1 permit. And even then you weren't guaranteed a permit.

Well who is right???

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There seems to be quite a discussion and difference of opinion about the existing deer population on this thread for AR restictions. I have read where some are saying that deer populations are at an all time high in NYS. This is the best of times. More deer per square mile now than ever.

Others are giving these gruesome tales of severe overpopulation in the 70's and 80's. Doesn't overpopulation and starvation deaths equate to more deer back then??? There was more land back then for deer also. A lot less development than today.

I hunted in the 70's and 80's and saw more deer. We had doe permits, but you needed 3 people on 1 permit. And even then you weren't guaranteed a permit.

Well who is right???

I think I agree with both...how is that for riding the fence...lol. I think across the state the herd in in higher numbers now. Back then there seemed to be areas that had a sever [problem with over population.  IF that makes sense.

[wztirem]

One must consider modern land utilization within the state these days and how it affects deer populations. For the most part, public land that is available to hunt deer is in short supply compared to the amount of private land. Much privately owned land cannot be hunted or for that matter hunted effectively enough to manage deer populations. Suburban sprawl has enabled deer to find a nice niche where their reproduction rates are uncontrollable.

It is true, that there are more deer today than ever before. One of these days nature will respond in the most unkind manner.

[lsnydes]

How do they determine deer population per sq. mile? Is it just on huntable land (whether private or public) or are areas with housing developments in them included? A lot of the land that was huntable in the past is now shopping malls etc.. The amount of sq. miles that were huntable in the past was far greater than today. Therefore, the deer could be more spread out and there actually could have been more deer than today. Now they are in smaller areas which makes it appear by stats that there are more deer.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I believe the way they get deer/sq mile is total population of a WMu and then divide by the WMU land area...total....everything included. the total population of deer in the state is very high.....if there is less usable area in a WMU due to development then by observation the deer population may appear even higher because they are concentrated in that usable area. in reality ...a deer doesn't need all that much room to exist. They are masters at living in small over looked areas.

[nyantler]

Has anyone else ever hunted PA?  I have.. and it was never and maybe never will be the whitetail capital of the world..haha.. it may have had the largest population of spikehorns,  and under weight whitetail in the world. PA has never been known for the quality of its whitetails.. Even older bucks there were of low weight and spindly racks...mainly because of hunters with the mindset of brushbuster.

[TheHunter]

I have, and do, and they have some beautiful bucks now, unlike 5-10 years ago.  I do not agree with how aggressive they were with the issuance of their version of the DMP's however, the AR there has produced monsters for everyone to harvest. 

[Frank]

We need bigger bucks. We need more deer. We love to hunt. It's not an easy  sport. Alot of us put alot of time into it to get quality animals then the ones we pass up to let get bigger just get shot anyway. Something needs to change. I hope people like the dec looks at this web sight and see's how many people want change. If they do what P.A. did we will see more deer and bigger bucks.

[TheHunter]

It will change Frank.

[nyantler]

I believe the way they get deer/sq mile is total population of a WMu and then divide by the WMU land area...total....everything included. the total population of deer in the state is very high.....if there is less usable area in a WMU due to development then by observation the deer population may appear even higher because they are concentrated in that usable area. in reality ...a deer doesn't need all that much room to exist. They are masters at living in small over looked areas.

That's very true Culver... I think the problem comes when the population gets to where they start to deplete the food source in that area.. mainly winter browse... and when they start to become a nuisance to homeowners plants and bushes..but yes that is the great thing about whitetails is that they are highly adaptable.

[Doc]

65 pages. This is a very popular topic. I don't think there are a whole lot of minds being changed, but it is generating a lot of interesting thoughts on the subject.

Doc

[August]

Once you've tried  this in your deer hunting you would never go back to the dark ages of deer hunting. It's much more rewarding to harvest a mature whitetail with a heavy set of antlers 16-20 inches wide. I've been practicing QDM on 150 acres for 10 years and even with my neighbors shooting any deer they see we still get a couple of  quality big 8 or 10 pointers every year.

[SteveB]

August - are you aging these mature whitetails?

[bubba]

If you wan tbg antler bucks, plant the right thing that promotes it.  Seems kind of selfish to me.  If you really think on 150 acres with everyone else shooting anythng, you are doing QDM, you are fooling yourself. 

[nyantler]

true that qdm is kinda futile on 150 acres but its more about the mindset of passing on the young bucks, maintaining a good food source. I couldn't care less if I was the only guy passing on the young bucks and harvesting a few does. If I pass the buck up he just got another chance to get a bit older... if I kill him, I'm 100% sure he will never be any older.

[bubba]

And if I kill him, I m sure the neighbors aren't.  We have almost 400 acres.  The neighbors to our north have 200 which by the way for a mere 12 cords of wood next summer, we will add to the land we have.  Anyway they make drives on their side.  The deer cross over to our side and we were passing the small young ones up, as we agreed at camp nothing less than a 6.  Anyway I have let three crotch walk during these drives, this year only to have the neighbors shoot them. Yes I know they were different deer as we saw them hanging after three different drives.  This year, I got a really nice 8 point 17 1/2inch inside spread 10 pound deer. His body size impressed me more than his antler size.  Did he get that bag because I passed him up last year? hell no.  He got that big and old becaue he was smart enough to elude us.  However I was smart enough to out smart him.  Anyone who thinks they can grow and mold deer to what they wants is again fooling themselves. Stop watchibng canned hunts on outdoor channel. 

[nyantler]

hey Bubba I agree that the neighbors will shoot them if they got the opportunity.. i guess my point is that at least if I let them go they have a CHANCE to possibly make it.. if i shoot him he has no chance. I'm hoping everyday that little guy walks he gets a bit smarter to help him make it to be an old buck. Actually I have kind of followed your posts and i am impressed with where, how and with what weapons you have killed deer. You sound like a guy I'd enjoy having a camp.

[bubba]

well ty.  You are welcome at my camp anytime also

[LI-BROWNING]

i've been hunting since i was a kid...had my fair share of deer. does, button bucks, spikes, 4pointer never a big buck..last 5 yrs been hunting in ulster county where the antler restriction is in place..wasn't a fan at first but, big fan now..  last 3 yrs. took a 8 pointer, 6 pointer and last year i took a 5 yr old doe she was huge...i did this because property is loaded with doe.  for me it is really about the meat and i am yet to find a real good receipe for antlers. now we have a lot of bucks 6 pointers and up in area. with one monster that is somewhere between 10 to 12 points....it does work no doubt....last 5 years has been the best hunting i ever had.... i have seen and learned so much by letting the younger bucks move. i have seen them spar, chase does, grunt, blow weeze, scrape, rub and rattled them in a few times as well. let the the bucks grow on your property and you will see the hunting improve leaps and bounds over the next few years.. good luck to all.

[SQ2Hunter]

As far as once a spike always a spike - studies have proven that a spike left to get some age on him can become a big buck. Spikes are normally fawns born  later than others. I am not a huge fan of antler restrictions but its better than nothing.  The reason I say that is this: I hunt 2 counties, Allegany and Ontario. The 1.5 year olds in Allegany county are typically small spikes, four points, and small sixes so antler restrictions would be of some benefit there. In Ontario county the 1.5 year olds are typically big sixes,sevens, eights, and even some 10. These bucks are quite impressive and even weigh up to 150lbs so antler restrictions would not be a benefit there. My opinion a one buck per person would be of more benefit in all areas.

[SQ2Hunter]

true that qdm is kinda futile on 150 acres but its more about the mindset of passing on the young bucks, maintaining a good food source. I couldn't care less if I was the only guy passing on the young bucks and harvesting a few does. If I pass the buck up he just got another chance to get a bit older... if I kill him, I'm 100% sure he will never be any older.

Couldnt of said it better

[erussell]

Article in the paper today

http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20101118/NEWS01/11180386/New-York-considers-the-value-of-antler-restrictions-in-deer-hunting

[TheHunter]

"Most would agree it's not natural to eliminate 70 percent of yearling  bucks from the herd every year," Fiscella said. "You are wiping out  future age classes of the balanced buck age structure."

So true...