wolc123

That is an interesting article. The part about the buck fawns hanging around after their mother is killed is spot on. I just saw it happen again this morning. The neighbor kid shot a big doe behind our place a couple weeks ago that had a buck fawn and a smaller doe fawn. The buck fawn passed twice by my stand this morning, but both times out of range. I will try again tomorrow, because they sure are good eating at that age (especially the livers).

I got a couple good looks at one of my "shooter" BB's this morning. First, he was at 151 yards at 9:25, standing broadside and munching on clover. The second look came at 9:40, when he crossed a cut hay field, at a range of 100 yards. I stayed out there until 11:45, hoping to get another look, inside of my effective 50 yard range, but it did not happen. The good news is that I know where he is bedded and I have three stands and blinds surrounding that 5 acre "sanctuary" area. None are in the right spot to get me a shot within range, if he keeps to his current travel paths. He will be in trouble after gun opens in a couple weeks if he keeps it up however. I am headed over to my folk's place this afternoon to try for a couple of the bigger boys they have been watching over there.

Over 35 years of bow-hunting, I had 4 bad hits on deer but never a miss and more clean kills than I can remember. I will never forget those bad hits and I have taken extremely strong measures to make sure they don't happen again. I am certain that one of those four survived, because a friend killed him with a gun a month later and the shoulder was all healed. Two of the others were also struck in the shoulder blade and most likely recovered also. The fourth, a spike buck, was hit too far back, and I am certain did not make it, but I never found him in many hours of searching. Strong measure #1: On the four years that I had a bad hit, I ended my season that year on the low note. I tried to learn from my mistake and do better the following year. I was not certain at the time of any of the bad hits, if the deer would survive and I did not feel that I deserved to kill (or try to kill) more than one deer in a given season. I certainly would not have taken that shot five minutes after the bad hit. Strong measure #2: I stopped using a grunt call or rattling to bring bucks into shooting range during archery season. When you do that, it causes them to go into a state of "high alert", and that is when "string-jump" becomes an issue. A deer at 18 yards, that is in high alert, can move more than a foot (usually straight down), between the time your arrow leaves your bow and the time it strikes. This is the likely cause of your first "high hit" although it was something else that put her in "high alert" (see next paragraph). Strong measure #3: I stopped hunting with a vertical bow after the crossbow became legal. The biggest advantage there is the elimination of the need to draw with a deer in close. That first doe you hit high probably caught a glimpse of your draw and went into "high alert". That made it easy for her to drop her vitals below your strike after she heard your bow release. She was tuned in and listening for a noise like that, A whitetail has an amazing reaction time, as you just found out the hard way. The second doe probably did not see your draw, so your overcompensation resulted in the low hit. The crossbow comes with a few disadvantages, the biggest one (hopefully temporary), is that it can only be used over the last two weeks (starting today). It is tougher to get off a second shot. You have to be aware of the limb position after release, and they can be front-heavy. The do have a couple other huge advantages however, the first being that they can and should be fired from a rest. Also, they can be used with telescopic sights that put the target and the sight in focus at the same time. If I was in your shoes, I would drive over to a store and pick up a good, reasonably priced entry level crossbow package (The Centerpoint sniper 370 and Barnett recruit come to mind). Spend an hour or so sighting it in and get back out there.

I am looking forward to getting out there all day tomorrow and Sunday afternoon. I would be real happy with a button buck or two on my DMP tags. Those can be processed right away, without aging and the meat is still very tender. (I can almost taste those young livers and tenderloins, pan-fried medium-rare in olive oil, right now as I type). The weather looks a little too warm next week to age an older deer by just hanging in my garage. The does and 1-1/2 year bucks are safe from me this weekend. If I can score on a 2-1/2 year or older buck, I will skin him right away, cut the carcass in half and hang in my garage "deer-fridge" for a week or more before processing. I am also looking forward to doing another European mount with the power washer. That is one thing the warm weather is nice for at this time of year. I would also like to try out my new "Butt-out 2" tool again (it worked as advertised on my NZ ML doe a couple weeks ago - insert, turn 1-1/2 times, then pull did the trick). Good luck to all the crossbow folks this weekend.

Not bad tractors and easy to find parts for. The hydraulics can be an issue. Those were early versions of Ford's "live" hydraulics and it took a few years for them to work the bugs out. The live hydraulics and pto make it a good bush-hog tractor compared to the earlier N's. Check for good oil pressure, compression, clutch and rear tires (new fronts are cheap). See if the hour meter works (less than 200 hours would be great).

This will be the third year I will not pick up a vertical bow. I was not able to practice with mine 3 years ago, due to some major surgery, and that was also the year they made the crossbow legal for the last 2 weeks. There is not much that bothers me more than wounding and not recovering a deer, and the crossbow greatly reduces my chances of doing that for 3 reasons: #1, don't have to draw with a deer in close. That virtually eliminates the need to shoot at alert deer which have caught a glimpse of the draw. "String jump" is only an issue when shooting at alert deer, and string jump caused all 4 of my bad hits over 35 years with a vertical bow. #2, Shooting from a rest. My accuracy with a gun is at least 4 times better from a rest (as determined by measured 3 shot group diameters) compared to offhand. The same thing holds true with my crossbow. Vertical bows are fired offhand. All of my stands and blinds now have good rests. #3, use of a telescopic sight. This almost lets me pick out an individual hair on the deer I shoot at, at ranges up to 50 yrds. "Aim small miss small". The human eye can only focus at one distance at a time, but the lenses on a good telescopic allow the crosshair (or aim-dot) to be in near perfect focus at the same time as the target. My last shot at a deer with a vertical bow was a clean kill, but it was a lot more due to Divine providence (I don't believe in luck) than my making a good shot. The buck must have caught a glimpse of my draw as he passed thru the hedgerow that my stand was in. When he stopped, 25 yards out, and quartering away, I released my arrow. He reared back and down, taking the arrow thru the neck and jugular, and dropped dead after a quick 30 yard dash. My only shot at a deer with a crossbow (two years ago), killed him clean with a shot thru the heart at 59 yards. He did not see me slowly move the crossbow in position on the rest for the shot, and never flinched when the bolt released, even though my crossbow is a bit louder than my vertical bow. I am definitely looking forward to getting out there with the crossbow on Saturday. Fortunately, our venison supply is in fair shape now thanks to a NZ, ML doe kill and another that a neighbor killed with his bow, and gave to us. That will let me be a little more selective. Button bucks will be my primary quarry with my antlerless tags (nothing is better eating), and 2-1/2 year and older bucks with my buck tag. The 1-1/2 year bucks and all the does will most likely get a pass from me on this weekend at least. Good luck this weekend to all the hunters no matter which weapon you choose. There are plenty of deer out there for all of us thanks to the non-winter we had last year.

I am glad to read that you found him Pap. He will make a fine euro mount for sure.

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

If Papist's buck is bleeding that much it should be an easy trail to follow in the dark with a product known as Bloodglow, Trackem, or Bluestar. I think Tinks may also make a silmilar product. It contains an active ingredient (luminol), developed for CSI usage, that when mixed with water (or windshield wiper fluid in freezing conditions) makes the hemoglobin in blood glow bright blue in the starlight. They say it works even better in rainy conditions (the extra water eliminates much of the "false positives"). $20 or so get's you enough for tracking 4 deer. They say it works on old trails (weeks old is no problem). At this point, the meat is surely lost if he died from the wound, but this product may help him get some closure and recover the rack. I bought some 2 years ago and am still waiting for a chance to use it. The (4) deer I have killed since getting it have all fallen dead in their tracks or within 50 yards. Has anyone here tried this stuff? If and when I do, I will be sure to post here on it's effectiveness (or lack thereof). I just picked up two more DMP's today, in the second drawing, and I plan to start hunting again on Saturday when crossbow opens up. On one hand, I hope I never need the stuff, but on the other, I really wonder if it does what they say it does. One of the more prolific hunters, on the old QDMA site, claimed that his recovery percentage was close to 100% with it.

You got to give one thing to LJC anyhow. He is such a verbose member of the anti - full inclusion crowd, that the other two or three members of that group have backed off entirely on here now. Maybe they should name a state park after him and give him exclusive hunting rights to it and then he won't have to share HIS deer with anyone else. The less competition the better. Who gives a crap about what the majority of bowhunters want. Polls don't mean nothing. Look how bad it has gotten in PA since the crossbow hordes moved in.

I am going to try for a 9F and a 9A tomorrow. You can only get two more total.

I can only dream of "roughing it" like that some day. I am getting a bit spoiled when I go up there now, staying in my in-laws new lake-side retirement home with my mother in law doing the cooking and my father in law helping to haul out the deer. I do help them out with some heavy lifting chores, but I definitely feel that I am getting more than I deserve in the deal. Your videos make me miss the days when I was "off the grid" up there. Before they built their new retirement home, on small land-locked lake, they would rent a cabin, for a long weekend (either opening of ML or rifle) every year, at a very remote, off-grid location that had water access to the Indian river. The first couple years, while I was dating my wife, I had to stay out in my truck camper (alone). After we got married, they let me stay in the cabin. The one thing I liked better about the camper was that I could just set the thermostat on the propane heater and be comfortable all night. The wood fireplace in the cabin was ok during the early evening but extremely cold in the mornings. I used a rowboat and a small outboard, to get to different hunting locations along the river. My rifle was unloaded or ML uncapped and cased, during the boat trips. Several times I noted deer down my the water (mostly does but two 1-1/2 year old bucks one time). Hunting from the canoe would definitely have been effective up there. The one doe I killed there with my ML was at a location where I had heard deer snorting the year prior, from out in the boat. I think your chances of catching a deer out on the waters edge are pretty good. There is definitely something special about not having any other hunters around. I never saw any at the old spot on the Indian river. The first few years at the new place, there were a couple other guys, one of whom showed me the hot spots, but both of them have passed away. I had it all to myself last season, but this year a couple new guys moved in. They are both great guys, but have caused me to locate some new hot-spots, as they have taken to my old ones. There seems like plenty of deer to go around for all up there, for this season at least.

I killed one with a shotgun, that had an arrow pass thru just above the spine and the broadhead was stuck under the hide on the exit side, when I skinned him. The buck appeared perfectly healthy when I shot him. He was hot on the trail of a doe I had just killed and actually standing over her dead body when I dropped him next to her. I trimmed out a few chops near the wound, but it did not look infected (probably a week old wound), and he probably would have recovered. Arrows cut very clean compared to lead bullets. I struck another large buck in the shoulder blade with an arrow when he jumped the string. A friend took him with a shotgun several weeks later and the wound was all healed up with just a big scar on the stricken shoulder. Based on these experiences, I think that most recover when struck above the vitals. Gut hits are far less common, and certainly always fatal. Just looking at the lost deer folks are posting on this site this year, and the past few seasons, it seems like the vast majority are high, above the spine or shoulder hits, and almost all of them will likely survive. The reason for most of these high hits is string jump, caused by shooting at deer that are alert because they caught a glimpse of the draw, or responded to a grunt call or rattle. If someone feels the need to shoot at an alert deer (I will not do it again personally), I would advise aiming at the bottom part of the heart (about 4" up from the bottom of the deer, behind the shoulder). If he does not jump, you get a heart shot, If he goes down hard, you will get a high-lung hit - and a very dead, easily recovered deer in either case.

How about getting this thread back on topic: The "dissapearing" poll thread that was in the bowhunting section, showed that the BOWHUTERS on this site supported "full inclusion" over "leave it the way it is now" by approximately a 2:1 margin. That is a real breakthrough in this fight and should signal the beggining of the end to those who are carrying on the fight against full inclusion. All you are doing by carrying on is increasing casualties within the ranks of hunters. Your cause is lost, just admit it and move on like those in many other states where the sky has not fallen, and almost all of which rank higher than NY in hunter satisfaction.

I started using a pair of black rubber "Mickey" boots last season when my old lacrosses finally wore out. Those things are "Goofy" looking, but work awesome. I think you can buy them new, for about $80 or surplus in good condition for about $40. They keep my feet warm in very cold conditions and are completely waterproof to about 12". They are also fairly light weight and easy to walk in. A couple weeks ago, on a week long NZ ML hunt, I had the perfect footwear with a pair of Altima combat boots for the first half of the week in warm, dry conditions, and the Mickey boots for the latter part of the week when the cold, monsoon rains came.

My daughter just scored me about 100 Reeses peanut butter cups. I should be all set thru late ML season.

I expect to switch over to Blackhorn 209, when my current supply of 777 pellets are exhausted. The easier cleanup is the main advantage there. I never minded loose powder. I always carried a couple speedloaders, loaded with a bullet in a sabot and the correct measure of powder plus about 5 extra grains, to allow for some spillage in a fast-load situation. With the pellets, I just put (2) in each speedloader, along with the bullet and sabot. I carry the speedloaders and a starter rod in my right side jacket pocket. I only used a second shot one time. A doe that I had "double lunged", with a shot to the side at close range, started to get back up when I got next to her. I am sure it was not necessary, but it was hard to see her suffer, and with the second shot she died.

There is a product on the market called "bloodglow" that, when mixed with water, causes blood to glow bright under the moon and starlight. They say it works even better in the rain. The active ingredient is luminol and it was developed for crime scene investigations. I am on the opposite side of the state, but if you know anyone in law-enforcement out there, they may be able to get you some. This stuff picks up blood drops that you can not see. If you got on that blood trail tonight with luminol, you may at least get closure on that hit, even if the meat is bad. I think your arrow passed thru above the spine, in the thick "back-strap" area. If that is true, then he will probably recover, and is probably out chasing does right now. A few years back I killed a basket-racked 8-point that had a broadhead , and a few inches of shaft, stuck under the hide on the exit side. The wound must have been about a week old (it was opening day of gun season) and I lost about (4) chops when trimming out the "questionable" looking stuff around the wound.

Congrats on the doe ADK. She should be fine hanging overnight and tomorrow if the temp stays under 50. I cut up a doe on Friday that had hung since last Sunday (the temps were in the mid 30's to mid 40's the whole time). My daughter and I had the tenderloins for lunch yesterday and they were about the most tender I can remember. The week prior, I took a doe up north in the really warm conditions, and I dropped her off at the processors in Lowville. It was nearly 80 then so I had few other options but to let them skin it and get it into their cooler right away.

Well at least that poll showed (for the brief time we had it) that the selfish elitists are going to have a tough time preventing full inclusion. Even the bowhunters who frequent this site support it by a 2:1 margin.

"Thanks you Phade and thanks Lord: " Awesome buck there Moog. Thanks for being very respectful and giving the credit where the credit was due. That is definitely one of the finer typical racks I have seen and will make a heck of a mount. To get it with a recurve makes it extra special. Now, I am really pumped to get out there with my crossbow next Saturday when it gets legal, and very thankful that I passed up a doe with my either/or tag up in the NZ last week. I was second guessing myself a bit because our family's food supply was not yet secured. The good Lord always provides however, and a neighbor kid dropped off a huge doe that he shot with his bow out back last Sunday, the day after I returned for my NZ ML trip. My daughter and I just polished off the tenderloins for lunch and they were wonderful (she likes them rare just like I do).

I use (2) 50 gr 777 pellets with the same bullet and sabot that CDM uses with my T/C Omega 50 cal. Other than a single glitch about 10 years ago, where I did not find the buck until the coyotes ate most of it, it has worked well every time (it was actually 100 gr of loose pyrodex on that one). I fired similar loads at about a dozen deer (including the one I posted in the harvest thread last week), and all but that one ended up in my freezer. That lost buck was at 175 yards, and I would certainly not try that far again with it. The accuracy is fine at 200 (5" diameter, 3 shot group), but I learned the hard way that there is not enough energy left at 175 yards for a good clean kill at a buck that presents a quartering away shot. A broadside shot at that range might be doable, but I will not try it. These days, I use my laser rangefinder to be sure that I stay within my limitations and for me that is 150 yards. This year's doe was only 25 yards away and the bullet went thru on a high lung shot. There was very little if any blood on her 40 yard trail, but the chest cavity was full when I gutted her. About half of the deer I have hit with that load, at ranges under 75 yards, have fallen dead in their tracks, while the rest have not made it farther than 50 yards. I am confident it would work well between 75 and 150 yards, based on energy tables, but have yet to try it there. I have got to admit that I was a little scared hunting in NY Adirondack bear country a couple weeks ago with that load. I definitely would have thought twice before shooting at one with it while I was deer hunting. I am sure it would do the job at close range or broadside behind the shoulder at longer ranges. I was a lot more comfortable with my 6 shot 30/06 after rifle season opened last Saturday. When I first bought the Omega, I tried many different loads and bullets. Nothing shot as accurate as those Hornady XTP's in the black sabots. The gun actually came from the factory with a tube of (5) of them. I wasted a lot of money trying other stuff. My 100 yard accuracy was the best with 100 grains of loose pyrodex (2" diameter, 3 shot group). Two 50 gr 777 pellets now hit the same place for me at 100 yards on the range, and the pellets are handier for loading and unloading.

The reason to change things is that the majority should get their way. The poll in the "bowhunting:" section was at nearly 2:1 in favor of full inclusion when it mysteriously disappeared. Obviously someone can't handle the truth. It looks like a majority of bow hunters (myself included) do favor full inclusion, not just gun hunters. Yet there remains a small minority of vocal, selfish, elitist bowhunters who are fighting against it. They will loose and the sooner they give up their pitiful selfish fight the better.

I left for home about noon on opening day of rifle season, from my location in WMU 6C, about 40 mi NW of your location. When I got up there, a week prior on opening day of ML, about 75% of the leaves were still on the trees and it was just past "peak" fall scenery time. By the time I left, the monsoon rains and winds had taken down almost all the leaves, and I did not get to see any snow. I got to see the lake at the lowest level I have ever seen, and the highest, all in one week. The weather the first half of the week was like mid-summer, which had me spending more time fishing than hunting. I tried a lot in deeper water for lake trout, without even a bite, but the smallmouth were very cooperative in the shallow water. I shot a medium sized doe just outside camp with my ML on the warmest morning, and had to run her down to Lowville for processing. I normally cut up my own, but the temperature was supposed to get up to 80 that day so I had to "sub it out" that time. Those folks down at Nolt's did an excellent job at an excellent price (less than $50 skinned, cut, ground and wrapped). We did enjoy the tenderloins with eggs for breakfast up at camp and they were good. I hunted a fair amount over the week and had run-ins with (6) deer, all while still-hunting. I did not see any antlers, except for little buttons on a young one that flushed out of the bushes just outside of camp. Two of them just showed me their tails, but they were bedded about 300 yards apart, were big deer, and may have been bucks. I was going to stay thru Sunday, but Nolt's was on my way home and I did not want to waste the extra time driving back and forth when they said the meat would me cut up by late morning Saturday (they are closed on Sunday's). Thank's again for the great video. I love the look of the snow on the mountain lake shores. Hopefully, we will get to see some this year when we head up again on Thanksgiving weekend. Unless I run across a real monster at home, I plan on saving my buck tag for that trip also. If you can move next years trip a week earlier for ML season, your odds of some better weather would improve a bit. Hopefully they will also make antlerless deer legal again at that time down there, which would multiply your odds of some venison by a factor of 10. That is based on my own observations of the antlerless/antler ratio over the last 10 years.

The last I saw, it was running in favor of full inclusion vs leaving it the way it is now by about a 2:1 margin. I can only assume that did not fit someone's agenda so they made it go away. The truth is a difficult thing to hide but the loosing side is so desperate to hold the line they will try just about anything at this point.