The Expanded Antler Restrictions - Who is excited?

[steve863]

  On 7/13/2012 at 4:21 PM, Meat Hunter said:

You sent a letter to the Deer plan or the regulation adoption that just ended? Who sent you a response from the DEC?

One reply I got on Oct 20, 2011, soon after this plan was put on the table. Hurst is no fly-by-night biologist in NYS. If he even states that there is NO biological need for AR's in NY, you fellas have absolutely NO leg to stand on with your voodoo theories on why AR's are so badly needed. All this is a sham that came to fruition by underhanded tactics by AR supporting sportsmans groups. As I said before, it's downright funny that the DEC even made note on their official document that most of the AR supporting letters where unsigned copies of the same letter. For the DEC to admit to something like this says a great deal in my opinion.

Thanks for your note and for expressing your concerns. You are correct that we see no biological need for mandatory ARs. We have repeatedly said that ARs are principally a social issue. It was based on the level of social interest expressed to our administration, that our agency decided to continue ARs in the pilot units and to propose expanding mandatory ARs into several additional units next year. Before ARs are a reality in the seven additional units, we must propose a regulation, a process that entails an 45-day public comment period. You may continue to express your concerns to our administration, local elected officials, and during the regulatory comment period which is likely to occur next February or March.

Regards,

Jeremy Hurst

Wildlife Biologist

NYSDEC, Bureau of Wildlife

625 Broadway, 5th Floor

Albany, NY 12233

Phone: 518-402-8867

Fax: 518-402-8925

jehurst@gw.dec.state.ny.us

[nyantler]

You can go on and on about how much you don't like AR's, and thats just fine... some fellas will never get the concept. But, as much as you may not like them... they are part of any good management program and there is not a single fact that disputes it. Every program, everywhere in the country has done what it was suppose to do when implemented properly.. even here in NY... If we're not seeing the huge results like some of you would like... it would be because of the reluctancy of some hunters to properly educate themselves on the subject... forcing the conservation dept. to adopt lackluster versions of a sound program to stop all the whiners.

[burmjohn]

  On 7/13/2012 at 4:47 PM, steve863 said:

One reply I got on Oct 20, 2011, soon after this plan was put on the table. Hurst is no fly-by-night biologist in NYS. If he even states that there is NO biological need for AR's in NY, you fellas have absolutely NO leg to stand on with your voodoo theories on why AR's are so badly needed. All this is a sham that came to fruition by underhanded tactics by AR supporting sportsmans groups. As I said before, it's downright funny that the DEC even made note on their official document that most of the AR supporting letters where unsigned copies of the same letter. For the DEC to admit to something like this says a great deal in my opinion.

Right there is no leg to stand on because why? One NY biologist has his opinion on the subject? give me a break. He is the same one that wrote up that document your quoting, he is clearly not in favor of AR's. I mean the DEC has been right on 100% of all the crap they have said in the past right? LOL.

http://www.hvqdma.com/biological-needs-for-antler-restriction/

Dick Henry is a retired NY DEC and well respected biologist.

[steve863]

  On 7/13/2012 at 5:24 PM, burmjohn said:

Right there is no leg to stand on because why? One NY biologist has his opinion on the subject? give me a break. He is the same one that wrote up that document your quoting, he is clearly not in favor of AR's. I mean the DEC has been right on 100% of all the crap they have said in the past right? LOL.

http://www.hvqdma.co...er-restriction/

Dick Henry is a retired NY DEC and well respected biologist.

Exactly where do you see Hurst's name on the document I quoted? If he did write it and is against AR's, how did it become law then?? The DEC is obviously not always correct, as you can see here with AR's, but I still want to read some official DEC document refuting or debating what they have said many times before that AR's serve NO biological purpose in NY? Obviously that is their official stance, which was obviously concluded by more than one NYS biologist. Yet, AR's are a "social" issue for you fellas, thus they let you have them.

Nice try posting an article from a QDM website. That's the laugh of the week for sure. You guys are obviously quite gullible and can't see the smoke and mirrors in the name of what is best for the herd. So QDM, which was concocted by biologists who were paid by some Texas big game hunters to come up with ideas, has more concern for the deer than it does about potential better hunting for themselves? If you guys want to bring things back to the way it was before man stepped in, why not quit hunting deer altogether then and let nature take its course?? NOOOO, you surely wouldn't want that, now would you? I tell you, you guys can be bought with a popsicle.

Hey fellas, I've also got some oceanside property in Iowa for you if you are interested? LOL

Edited July 13, 2012 by steve863

[nyantler]

LOL. steve.. you believe one young NY biologist over undisputed facts over 30 or more years across the country? I think I'd much prefer my experience with AR's and deer management for the last 18 years over your unfounded opinions. Find a real argument for why they don't work... I dare ya.

No "biological purpose" as it purtains to hunters and hunting maybe... not as it purtains to proper herd management... I have spoken to many NY biologists and you can put their knowledge of whitetail biology on the head of a pin in my view... the proof is out there for all to see, state after state that have adopted "good" management programs. Like I said.. find one that hasn't worked... I dare ya.

In your eyes they don't work just because you don't like them...

Edited July 13, 2012 by nyantler

[steve863]

  On 7/13/2012 at 5:55 PM, nyantler said:

LOL. steve.. you believe one young NY biologist over undisputed facts over 30 or more years across the country? I think I'd much prefer my experience with AR's and deer management for the last 18 years over your unfounded opinions. Find a real argument for why they don't work... I dare ya.

I've been away for a while, but I see that you still talk from your mouth and your rear end, and unfortunately from both at the same time. Earlier in the thread you state that you really aren't much of a supporter for the AR rule as it is implemented in most states and now you rave about its undisputed proven facts. Unbelievable!

[mbucks27]

Just a question for everybody on this thread. How would everybody feel if they got rid of the AR's and went to a 1 buck rule for the entire state? I would much rather see the 1 buck rule go into effect than have AR's.

John

[Meat Hunter]

Hey Steve, I bet you $1,000 that Dick Henry is not paid by QDMA to promote ARS! He has been in our area for 30 years. While he was at the department there was positive stuff posted on AR or what ever they called it then by the DEC and even after he left Mr. Hurst put on a positive AR presentations. Then magically when the director was replaced by a wetland biologist, Mr. Hurst was told to change his tune.

It seems you just like to argue against ARs and there are a few guys like you in the state.

Now I understand the quote about getting the popcorn and beer

[Meat Hunter]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:14 PM, mbucks27 said:

Just a question for everybody on this thread. How would everybody feel if they got rid of the AR's and went to a 1 buck rule for the entire state? I would much rather see the 1 buck rule go into effect than have AR's.

John

Would not reduce buck harvest! Well know only 2% of the hunters take two legal buck so would not save enought bucks to improve the hunting and buck age structure

[beachpeaz]

I agree with tryign to control young deer being shot, but is an anter restriction the only way? To me, it is not about the points, but the maturity of the buck. Go ahead and shoot a 6 year old deer that is only a 5 point!! Why let it live? And then to shoot the 8 point that is 1.5 or 2.5 years that has TONS of potential? Seems ass backwards to me. The "brown and down" people that are out there suck! (and I have some in my family too so i'm not pointing fingers). If you could educate people on what deer to shoot, you wouldn't need antler restrictions. if you just want meat, shoot a doe, God knows there are WAY too many of them around since nobody controls them!! Here is a helpful hint for some of you: if it takes you several minutes with your binoculars to decipher if it is a deer or the neigbhors dog running around, don't shoot it! Ok....off my soap box.

[burmjohn]

  On 7/13/2012 at 5:52 PM, steve863 said:

Exactly where do you see Hurst's name on the document I quoted? If he did write it and is against AR's, how did it become law then??

Yes its him, and obviously there are people a lot more knowledgeable and concerned about the deer population then you and him.

  On 7/13/2012 at 5:52 PM, steve863 said:

Nice try posting an article from a QDM website. That's the laugh of the week for sure.

Yes an article written by a very well respected and knowledgeable NY DEC retired Biologist, thanks for pointing that out though!

[Doewhacker]

"mandatory ARs are not biologically necessary to maintain a healthy deer population in New York. Furthermore, the yearling portion of total buck take in New York has been dropping statewide, without mandatory ARs, from greater than 70% in the early 1990s to about 55% in 2011"

You pro AR guys can go argue with the DEC, the link provided previously and the parts of the document aren't enough for you I gather. Unreal.

"Going forward, we need to consider other approaches (e.g., mandatory ARs for part of the season, a one-buck per hunter limit, or other alternatives) that may offer more acceptable outcomes for New York deer hunters and stakeholders"

Maybe if I keep re posting it you will read it and actually understand it.

[Doewhacker]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:22 PM, burmjohn said:

Because obviously there are people a lot more knowledgeable and concerned about the deer population then you and him.

Nope AR's made it in because public pressure and politicians backing it, and that is the only reason it is in. Do I need to re-post the part where they recieved many unsigned, undated form letters from sportsmans groups?

[steve863]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:15 PM, Meat Hunter said:

It seems you just like to argue against ARs and there are a few guys like you in the state.

Now I understand the quote about getting the popcorn and beer

And we should take what you say about AR's and your whopping other 37 posts as the law from God, without any rebuttal??

[burmjohn]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:28 PM, Doewhacker said:

Nope AR's made it in because public pressure and politicians backing it, and that is the only reason it is in. Do I need to re-post the part where they recieved many unsigned, undated form letters from sportsmans groups?

No need to, I already know who wrote that report, and he is not in favor of AR's.

And yes, the public support by those who care about the herd and are clearly more knowledgeable then the one that wrote that article is what got AR's to where they are today, no thanks to the DEC and their baseless "No Biologic Need".

[Doewhacker]

"Going forward, we need to consider other approaches (e.g., mandatory ARs for part of the season, a one-buck per hunter limit, or other alternatives) that may offer more acceptable outcomes for New York deer hunters and stakeholders"

By the way I would and do whole heartedly support these other ideas for AR's and even a more extreem one as Culver suggested of a buck permit lottery. Funny though I have rarely heard any AR fans say they would go for a buck permit system.

[burmjohn]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:39 PM, Doewhacker said:

By the way I would and do whole heartedly support these other ideas for AR's and even a more extreem one as Culver suggested of a buck permit lottery. Funny though I have rarely heard any AR fans say they would go for a buck permit system.

I'd be willing to try anything, but since AR's have been effective in other states I don't think there is a need for a "lottery". Now, one buck per year, that I'd go for in a second.

[Doewhacker]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:38 PM, burmjohn said:

No need to, I already know who wrote that report, and he is not in favor of AR's.

And yes, the public support by those who care about the herd and are clearly more knowledgeable then the one that wrote that article is what got AR's to where they are today, no thanks to the DEC and their baseless "No Biologic Need".

haha yea clearly its all that Hursts fault that the DEC hasn't agreed with AR's for a few years now. Just keep ignoring guys, the next wave of restrictions will be far worse for you than I.

[Meat Hunter]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:19 PM, beachpeaz said:

Go ahead and shoot a 6 year old deer that is only a 5 point!! Why let it live? And then to shoot the 8 point that is 1.5 or 2.5 years that has TONS of potential? Seems ass backwards to me.

That deer does not exist- look at the DEC harvest data and the number of point at each age class. Hell a 6 year old does not exist. There was a good article in the last ODN on this issue.

[burmjohn]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:41 PM, Doewhacker said:

haha yea clearly its all that Hursts fault that the DEC hasn't agreed with AR's for a few years now. Just keep ignoring guys, the next wave of restrictions will be far worse for you than I.

Nah its not all his fault, he is just following what he is told to do.

[Doewhacker]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:41 PM, burmjohn said:

I'd be willing to try anything, but since AR's have been effective in other states I don't think there is a need for a "lottery". Now, one buck per year, that I'd go for in a second.

yea why not, its not like you fellas kill a buck most years anyway? I think that they could properly control herd numbers that way like they try to with doe permits. Seems like that makes a lot more sense than taking bucks every single year, good or bad.

[Meat Hunter]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:30 PM, steve863 said:

And we should take what you say about AR's and your whopping other 37 posts as the law from God, without any rebuttal??

Absolutely!

What you do not want to bet me a $1000 as I sugested?

All my information comes from DEC data, Not some staffers opinion.

[Doewhacker]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:42 PM, Meat Hunter said:

That deer does not exist- look at the DEC harvest data and the number of point at each age class. Hell a 6 year old does not exist. There was a good article in the last ODN on this issue.

Really? well don't go talking to some of the guys on this site then, they must be telling tales about the old bucks they have killed.

[steve863]

  On 7/13/2012 at 6:44 PM, Meat Hunter said:

Absolutely!

What you do not want to bet me a $1000 as I sugested?

All my information comes from DEC data, Not some staffers opinion.

Then why don't you post links to some of this data like some others here have?? Or are you another fella just talking from his rear end??

[TheHunter]

Steve and Doe do you hunt in AR area's? What's that? No?

Do you guys know what a Troll is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

Go troll some posts in your neck of the woods.

Edited July 13, 2012 by TheHunter