Expanded AR's Who is not excited?

[WNYBuckHunter]

I don't believe that...it should all be on an equal playing field as far as importance...but with in a real world realistic goals...this 1:1 is just bupkiss.... in a real world application.....There are too many variables to be able to control and unless they are in inclosed areas....whether 100 or 500 acres with limited pressures...such as predation and vehicle...car or farm kills...diet...stress...ect ect...

Your right though in some areas not killing doe would have a huge impact...in a negative way...JUST like killing too many can have the same effect...unfortunately hunting has left the realm of just deer population and has become linked to States financial health...tourism is building around a states hunting / fishing opportunities far more than in the past...it's become big business..and one can try to dress it up under the guise of pure herd health ..but it's a thin vail at best..

Dont believe what? That deer hunting is mainly a tool to control the population? Tell you what, take that purpose away from it and see how long hunting lasts for. Make things like deer birth control, etc actually effective and low cost, and see how quickly our sport becomes a thing of the past. All of the programs that promote hunting are there to help support its main purpose, by making more people interested in doing it. The business related to it is a by product.

[Doc]

Yes, its the law to report, but out of all the people that dont call in their tags, how many really get caught? If it was mandatory to report kill or no kill, then you would have actual repercussions to consider before you just dont bother calling that deer in. It wouldnt be fool proof and make things 100% accurate, but id be willing to bet money that it improved the system drastically.

Let's make this real easy to understand. We're all pretty used to computers now, so we all have an idea what their capabilities are.

License-wise everything is or can be done involving the ones and zeros of a database. You get your license via computer and even if you don't, all your info is put onto a DEC database. So their computer knows how many and what kind of licences (permits) you have. The harvests are now all computerized, so their computers know what licenses have been used. If reporting involves ALL licenses (successful or not), a quick database sort will tell them who has reported all the results for all of the licenses. All done with the computer and almost all of it is in the computer already. No DEC employees involved. No running around to processers and taxidermists and hunting camps to try to conjure up some bogus "reporting rate" guesstimate. If you don't report the results for all your licenses and permits, the DEC knows all about it at the push of a button. Given that there would be no way of not reporting without the DEC being flagged, I have a hard time believing anybody would flaunt the law. Especially if the penalties were set properly. And by the way, if they want to get real fancy, the computer can issue warnings. And then if you still don't report, they can issue citations via computer. With the proper penalties, I bet you could get that reporting rate up into the upper 90 percent area. All this done with a minimum of actual DEC man-hours (actually far-far less than is currently being used). Sounds kind of good in this age of tight DEC budgets doesn't it. Better results with less manpower ..... can't beat that.

It all boils down to one simple requirement. If you bought a license, you owe the DEC a report to cover it at the end of the season (successful or not).

[WNYBuckHunter]

There are alot of things you and I dont see eye to eye on Doc, but this subject isnt one of them lol.

[burmjohn]

There are alot of things you and I dont see eye to eye on Doc, but this subject isnt one of them lol.

Holy crap. This should be noted as a HuntingNY.com historical event forever etched in history.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc and I have always agreed on this lol

[growalot]

Thats all it is, the rest is ancillary.

Not trying to be sarcastic...though it may come out sounding so....When you used the word ancillary...you did know the meaning?...if you read all my post you'd see where I explained why I didn't believe your statement to be believable..though I'll correct my self and rephrase and say I don't find the above statement to be ...hhhmmm ....on point

[WNYBuckHunter]

Not trying to be sarcastic...though it may come out sounding so....When you used the word ancillary...you did know the meaning?...if you read all my post you'd see where I explained why I didn't believe your statement to be believable..though I'll correct my self and rephrase and say I don't find the above statement to be ...hhhmmm ....on point

Yes, I do know the definition of ancillary. It means something that is there to support the main goal or purpose. I didnt even need an online dictionary to know that

[Culvercreek hunt club]

If your taking three bucks a year, then your a lowlife poacher..

That isn[t really true. If you take into account antlered nuisance tags, ability to fill lat years tags up north in early archery prior to October 1st. and the fact that bucks can be taken on dmp's if horns are less that 3". there also are the bonus tag areas like 8C that can factor in as well.

[growalot]

Well I'm not going to scan and copy the "Hard Book" definition...so online will just have to do for you...and if you read the whole post you'll see my explanation of why I stated what I did...My opinion ....how I viewed the definition of the words you used...not to be turned into a -issing match ...

ancillary adj : relating to something that is added but is not essential; "an ancillary pump"; "an adjuvant discipline to forms of mysticism"; "The mind and emotions are auxilliary to each other" [syn: accessory, adjunct, adjuvant, appurtenant, auxiliary, subsidiary]

an·cil·lar·y

   [an-suh-ler-ee or, especially Brit., an-sil-uh-ree] Show IPA adjective, noun, plural an·cil·lar·ies.

adjective

1.

subordinate; subsidiary.

2.

auxiliary; assisting.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Here we go again....

an·cil·lar·y/ˈansəˌlerē/

Adjective: Providing necessary support to the primary activities or operation of an organization, institution, industry, or system. Noun: A person whose work provides necessary support to the primary activities of an organization, institution, or industry. Synonyms:

subsidiary - auxiliary - subordinate - accessory

Not sure where your definition is coming from, but this is what I have always known it to mean.

[WNYBuckHunter]

BTW, please take note, Im not the one starting the pissing match.

[Meat Hunter]

All I have to say is....for the ppl that claim NYS doesn't have big bucks...they need to subscribe to NY Outdoor News.......

I do not think anyone would argue that NY has a few adult/ big bucks. But it’s just a few. What are there 100-200 pictures in the ODN each year? And that is the point we have the potential to have tons of big adults but as the result of a law from 1911 we do not.

Let’s look at the numbers. In 2010 106,960 bucks were harvested statewide of which 58,828 were yearlings. Would you prefer to have 58,828 adults to harvest? Then 29,735 2.5 year olds were harvested and 15,295 3.5 year olds were harvested. Those are the statewide numbers.

Let’s now see what would happen to the harvest statewide, if an antler restriction was in place with the same effectiveness in protecting yearling bucks as in the current AR areas in Ulster and Sullivan Counties. In the units that have mandatory antler restrictions in NY 15% of the harvest were yearlings, 49% 2.5 year olds and 36% 3.5 year olds. So applying these percentages to the state harvest we get only 16,044 yearlings harvested, 52,410 2.5 year old harvested and 38,506 3.5 year olds harvested.

Age at Harvest Statewide Hypothetical AR Gain/ Loss

Yearling 1.5 58,828 16,044 -42,784

2.5 Year Old 29,735 52,410 +22,675

3.5 Year Old 15,295 38,506 +23,211

2.5 &3.5 together 45,030 90,916 +45,886

202% increase

So what we do not shoot as yearlings we more than make up for as 2.5 and 3.5 year old harvest. And there will be some over 3.5 year old out there too.

This is all just common sense. It is just moving the harvest to Adults. I still think it is strange that people get all worked up over it. It is easy to do. The only big deal is the improvement in hunting! And we are far superior stewards when we have a herd with natural buck behavior and breeding that can only take place with adults in the herd.

[Pygmy]

Thanks WNY and Growie..I just learned a new word...

Now if I can figure out whose DEFINITION is proper...<<grin>>....

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thanks WNY and Growie..I just learned a new word...

Now if I can figure out whose DEFINITION is proper...<<grin>>....

Depends if you want to believe grow's source (thefreedictionary.com) or if you want to believe mirriam-webster.com (along with a host of other real dictionaries lol)

[growalot]

Posted Today, 09:52 AM

Here we go again....

an·cil·lar·y/ˈansəˌlerē/

Adjective: Providing necessary support to the primary activities or operation of an organization, institution, industry, or system. Noun: A person whose work provides necessary support to the primary activities of an organization, institution, or industry. Synonyms:

subsidiary - auxiliary - subordinate - accessory

Why yes you do want a -issing match...you don't seem to be able to...

1. thoroughly read your own sources definition or...

2. Comprehend the sources information

I also took mine from 2 different sources so as to not confuse you...not that I needed to..I've know the definition since grade school...If your last post was to make your self look.... either cutesie or mentally superior...you may have have missed the mark on both....

Now please get in the last word so this can end....

[WNYBuckHunter]

[growalot]

I do not think anyone would argue that NY has a few adult/ big bucks. But it’s just a few. What are there 100-200 pictures in the ODN each year? And that is the point we have the potential to have tons of big adults but as the result of a law from 1911 we do not.

You do realize that there are thousands of buck taken each year that are of good size and age...that ppl don't have a need to advertise to the world and are never seen....Hell why would any one want to advertise their good hunting grounds?

Age at Harvest Statewide Hypothetical AR Gain/ Loss

Yearling 1.5 58,828 16,044 -42,784

2.5 Year Old 29,735 52,410 +22,675

3.5 Year Old 15,295 38,506 +23,211

2.5 &3.5 together 45,030 90,916 +45,886

202% increase

Granted that is a well presented chart...with one glaring exception...you neglected to put in bold That the ENTIRE chart is HYPOTHETICAL

NYDEC does not ask the age of buck taken...just point #'s and if they are adults....Do you have the data on how many guys butcher their own deer?...how many "deer processors" are never visited and the rarity of jaw aging?

I'm not saying I'm against older deer...I pass buck my self...I suppose what I'm against is the band wagon...Well this state and that state are doing it...look at all those trophy's...look what their getting for guided hunts.... leased lands and trophy fees...it has little...I'll refrain from very...just little to do with a healthy heard...I would also think it justifies the $$$ the state lays out for the biologists and studies

[WNYBuckHunter]

Heres what I said

"Do you have any idea what that would do, especially in some areas? Deer hunting is a tool to control the population. Thats all it is, the rest is ancillary."

When I said the rest is ancillary, I was saying that it was all there to support the main objective, population control. By "the rest", I mean all of the programs to get people interested in hunting (AR, different seasons, etc). Follow me now?

[growalot]

WNYBH...lets just agree that the word has more than one meaning in how it's viewed within a statement...As I stated I wasn't trying to be sarcastic...and the above statement made earlier..... would have resulted in a "OOOhhh I see what your saying now....

Evenually we'll figure out how not to antagonize each other unintentionally....hhhmmm or intentionally for that matter....

[mike103]

^{Sorry I did not specify.}

^{When I stated I would like to see a moratorium on doe permits I ment 4P not the entire state.}

^{We did in the mid 2000's but I forget which years.}

[dave6x6]

That isn[t really true. If you take into account antlered nuisance tags, ability to fill lat years tags up north in early archery prior to October 1st. and the fact that bucks can be taken on dmp's if horns are less that 3". there also are the bonus tag areas like 8C that can factor in as well.

As i told that poster, one of us is going to look stupid.... Well i guess it's me.LOL there's a surprise. I will say this though. Because he has not explained how he shoots three deer "many times", which of these sinarios make sense to you? Nuisance makes sense but doesn't really follow the content of his statement which was to point out the benifits of a one buck rule. If it's the second, then he didn't shoot his buck the previous year and so carried it over up north.. so that doesn't support his statement very well, because this would make him very unsuccessful down south and yet one hell of a buck killer up north. Then you have the third case where you tag using DMP's with antlers less then three inches... If thats his method then he is a chronic button buck killer or he purposely targets small bucks knowing he can put his DMP on it. Legal yes but not really something to brag about. Bonus tags in some areas is a viable explanation. Didn't concider that.. Stupid,stupid,stupid..LOL

[growalot]

For those of you that don't get Growing deer.com e-mails.... please go to the site and click on age deer on the hoof...I believe you'll find the video interesting...

If one of you techy type guys could make getting this easier..... I'd appreciate the help...I couldn't pull the link over

[WNYBuckHunter]

WNYBH...lets just agree that the word has more than one meaning in how it's viewed within a statement...As I stated I wasn't trying to be sarcastic...and the above statement made earlier..... would have resulted in a "OOOhhh I see what your saying now....

Evenually we'll figure out how not to antagonize each other unintentionally....hhhmmm or intentionally for that matter....

I apologize grow, ive been dealing with real estate mumbo jumbo and techie crap all day. Im a little on edge.

[growalot]

done and over...good luck

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thanks. I swear, they make real estate stuff overly complicated so the average guy simply cant handle it on their own lol. Ive had to even sign a document stating that I am not a terrorist. Im feel like I must be waiting to be fingerprinted and give a DNA sample lol.