Expanded AR's Who is not excited?

[nyantler]

I would agree that they probably wouldn't be ticketed for poaching, but technically they are... I'm not even sure they would get more than a slap on the wrist for not reporting... and that is exactly the reason why many hunters don't report.. because there are really no reprocussions for not doing so... I do find it interesting that hunters complain that the numbers by the DEC are BS, yet aren't willing to help them get the real numbers by reporting their deer take... its kind like the guys that complain about too many does, but won't kill one, not enough big bucks... but they want to shoot all the yearlings... The hunters are really there own worst enemy when it comes to conservation... the DEC can only do so much without any cooperation from the hunting community. As for not enforcing game laws, that is all on the DEC.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I would agree that they probably wouldn't be ticketed for poaching, but technically they are... I'm not even sure they would get more than a slap on the wrist for not reporting... and that is exactly the reason why many hunters don't report.. because there are really no reprocussions for not doing so... I do find it interesting that hunters complain that the numbers by the DEC are BS, yet aren't willing to help them get the real numbers by reporting their deer take... its kind like the guys that complain about too many does, but won't kill one, not enough big bucks... but they want to shoot all the yearlings... The hunters are really there own worst enemy when it comes to conservation... the DEC can only do so much without any cooperation from the hunting community. As for not enforcing game laws, that is all on the DEC.

Yes sir, Thats why there should be a one buck per season rule with a law that forces reporting harvests and heavy fines and loss of the following years tags if caught not reporting or caught with someone else's tag. Any take that can not be transferd and i would like to see that done away with.

[nyantler]

Yes sir, Thats why there should be a one buck per season rule with a law that forces reporting harvests and heavy fines and loss of the following years tags if caught not reporting or caught with someone else's tag. Any take that can not be transferd and i would like to see that done away with.

Transfering is only for doe permits and that is done to ensure that as many of the available permits are filled as possible. I think that mandatory reporting should be done by every hunter before getting tags for the next season. Possibly having to turn in the previous years tags before getting your new tags. That would also mean having to tell who you signed a tag over to.

Edited July 19, 2012 by nyantler

[WNYBuckHunter]

I would agree that they probably wouldn't be ticketed for poaching, but technically they are... I'm not even sure they would get more than a slap on the wrist for not reporting... and that is exactly the reason why many hunters don't report.. because there are really no reprocussions for not doing so... I do find it interesting that hunters complain that the numbers by the DEC are BS, yet aren't willing to help them get the real numbers by reporting their deer take... its kind like the guys that complain about too many does, but won't kill one, not enough big bucks... but they want to shoot all the yearlings... The hunters are really there own worst enemy when it comes to conservation... the DEC can only do so much without any cooperation from the hunting community. As for not enforcing game laws, that is all on the DEC.

Exactly Joe.

[Meat Hunter]

Transfering is only for doe permits and that is done to ensure that as many of the available permits are filled as possible.

This doe tag transfer is a bad Idea and makes it very hard to know how many does are harvested and in areas with lower numbers can result in over harvest. If people do not report their own tags how likely are they to report a tag someone else gave them?

[WNYBuckHunter]

This doe tag transfer is a bad Idea and makes it very hard to know how many does are harvested and in areas with lower numbers can result in over harvest. If people do not report their own tags how likely are they to report a tag someone else gave them?

How do you figure? They are allocated by WMU and can only be used in that WMU. What the name is on the tag doesnt matter.

[mike rossi]

Fixed it for ya. Yeah, it works great in some places, I just dont think here.

Thanks, long thread, got lost. About the non reports, by using statistics the DEC doesnt need an exact count. That doesnt mean hunters should be lax about reporting, because obviously the closer to the actual number the better. It does mean trends in population size and population age structure can still be estimated without an exact body count. Also, the statistical models assume a certain number of deer are not reported and adjust for it. The estimates are deemed close enough to help guide management decisions. I would say do your part and just keep reporting your kills and let the dead beats be dead beats.

[Meat Hunter]

How do you figure? They are allocated by WMU and can only be used in that WMU. What the name is on the tag doesnt matter.

First my only issue was that the reporting rate is much lower for tags that are transferred which make it much harder to determine if the correct number of does are being harvested. Remember there is a target harvest and an issue number for of tags much higher to meet that harvest. Also there is no control study on the reporting rate of transfer tags. If you are in an area of a million deer you probably do not give much thought to this issue but in areas with fewer deer and limited doe tags this kind of over harvest is a problem. Now back to my original point, if hunters are generally not good at reporting the deer they harvest on their own tags we can expect that they will have a lower reporting rate on a tag that was given them by someone else.

Now as to this: "They are allocated by WMU and can only be used in that WMU"

You’re a funny guy! They can and are used wherever someone feels like it. Yes that is illegal but very common. Some folks just do not know any better, some cannot read the tiny number and letters on the tag (our hunters are old) and others do not care. The sales agents encourage people to apply for DMPs where they will get them and not where they actually hunt which creates a problem to start. For example in WMU 3M, 38,000 tags are issued to harvest only 3000-4000 deer in an area with no access. So there are over 30,000 tags that go ...who knows where. This unit has many units to the north where the deer numbers are low and DMPs very limited. Having a lot of hunters with these tags for 3M but no access to hunt in 3M hunting in the northern units with limited DMPs and the wrong tag in their pocket is a problem. The DEC ECO and Biologist have talked about this at many meetings.

[steve863]

Now as to this: "They are allocated by WMU and can only be used in that WMU"

You’re a funny guy! They can and are used wherever someone feels like it. Yes that is illegal but very common. Some folks just do not know any better, some cannot read the tiny number and letters on the tag (our hunters are old) and others do not care. The sales agents encourage people to apply for DMPs where they will get them and not where they actually hunt which creates a problem to start. For example in WMU 3M, 38,000 tags are issued to harvest only 3000-4000 deer in an area with no access. So there are over 30,000 tags that go ...who knows where. This unit has many units to the north where the deer numbers are low and DMPs very limited. Having a lot of hunters with these tags for 3M but no access to hunt in 3M hunting in the northern units with limited DMPs and the wrong tag in their pocket is a problem. The DEC ECO and Biologist have talked about this at many meetings.

You know, if such a practice is as widespread as you are suggesting, then I would say that hunters are a pretty F*^%$d group and honestly NO one should ever even consider letting a hunter hunt their land. Hell, if we hunters think so many of us are up to NO good, then why should anyone else trust us or have an ounce of respect for us?? We all know that there are some bad apples in our bunch, but I really hope that you are not correct with your insinuations here. The hunters I know sure as hell don't go getting DMP's from where they are easy to get to fill them in other areas. OK, so since their are so many bandit hunters out there, what is to stop them from shooting a spike or forkhorn in an AR area and then claiming that it was shot in a non-AR area?? Or are all the AR supporters the upstanding hunters while everyone else is a bandit??

[Skillet]

You know, if such a practice is as widespread as you are suggesting, then I would say that hunters are a pretty F*^%$d group and honestly NO one should ever even consider letting a hunter hunt their land. Hell, if we hunters think so many of us are up to NO good, then why should anyone else trust us or have an ounce of respect for us?? We all know that there are some bad apples in our bunch, but I really hope that you are not correct with your insinuations here. The hunters I know sure as hell don't go getting DMP's from where they are easy to get to fill them in other areas. OK, so since their are so many bandit hunters out there, what is to stop them from shooting a spike or forkhorn in an AR area and then claiming that it was shot in a non-AR area?? Or are all the AR supporters the upstanding hunters while everyone else is a bandit??

Well put, Steve.

[BizCT]

Buck tags should be transferrable too. I dont see the difference.

If Person A gets a buck, Person B gets a buck, and Person C gets a buck. 3 legal bucks were killed.

If Person A gets 3 bucks (his own, and Person B and C's signed over to him). 3 legal bucks were killed.

Maybe Person B/C can only hunt 2 days or something?

[burmjohn]

OK, so since their are so many bandit hunters out there, what is to stop them from shooting a spike or forkhorn in an AR area and then claiming that it was shot in a non-AR area??

Nothing is stopping those people.

Or are all the AR supporters the upstanding hunters while everyone else is a bandit??

No one suggested that.

[A Sportsman]

I agree Steve863.

We know that there are a lot of bad eggs out there, in any sport, but to think that some ridiculously high percentage of hunters would be commiting such an egregious offense seems off-base, at the very least.

I noticed some guys speaking in support of one buck rule. First of all, once again, NYS is too varied for this type of one-size fits all approach. Second of all, we have dwindling hunter recruitment, as a result less hunters have had to kill more deer to maintain herds in many places. One buck tag would be awful. At the very least, you gotta allow one buck with bow and one with gun. ON Long Island, our bow season is Oct 1 to Dec 31. and gun is in January. And we would get 1 buck tag. NO WAY.

[steve863]

No one suggested that.

No, no one did, BUT, some of us who are not AR supporters have been accused of being "if it's brown, it's down" guys, so it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who these people getting DMP's to use in other areas might be in your minds. If AR supporters vastly outnumber non-AR supporters in your areas as you guys claim, then the way I see it the odds are pretty good that many of these bandit hunters may not be from the side that some of you might be thinking.

[burmjohn]

No, no one did, BUT, some of us who are not AR supporters have been accused of being "if it's brown, it's down" guys, so it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who these people getting DMP's to use in other areas might be in your minds. If AR supporters vastly outnumber non-AR supporters in your areas as you guys claim, then the way I see it the odds are pretty good that many of these bandit hunters may not be from the side that some of you might be thinking.

Again who said that.. I'm not thinking that. I'm sure the issues of DMP miss use spans across all area's including those who do and don't support AR's. But whatever..

[steve863]

Who said that YOU said anything? My initial reply was to meat hunter's insinuation that misuse of DMP's is common. Since he claims that "In the current AR areas 77 to 90% of the hunters find continuing the AR program acceptable.", and if he is speaking from experience in his home area that DMP misuse is prevalent, who would then be the people misusing these DMP's?? With such figures and insinuations being thrown out by him, some of us just want him to explain a few things, that is all.

[burmjohn]

Who said that YOU said anything? My initial reply was to meat hunter's insinuation that misuse of DMP's is common. Since he claims that "In the current AR areas 77 to 90% of the hunters find continuing the AR program acceptable.", and if he is speaking from experience in his home area that DMP misuse is prevalent, who would then be the people misusing these DMP's?? With such figures and insinuations being thrown out by him, some of us just want him to explain a few things, that is all.

I gotcha.

[Meat Hunter]

What I said was that we do not know the reporting rate of transfered DMPs but that is makes sense that it is less.

And that in some areas there is a problem with the miss use of DMPs in the wrong area. Once again we do not know how bad it is but there is no reason to have 30,000 extra tags out there that can end up in the wrong place.

[Meat Hunter]

here is a good artcle

http://www.eveningtribune.com/topstories/x1249727649/Are-antler-restrictions-the-wave-of-the-future-in-NYS

[WNYBuckHunter]

The reason for having so many tags issued per season over what the target take is, is because the percentage for success rate is so low. The DEC figures they want x number of deer taken, give or take some. Their target number isnt locked in to the single animal.

The guys that are taking deer on signed over DMPs and not reporting them, are the same guys that arent reporting their own DMPs. Like I said, whats it matter what the name on the tag is?

I guess I should have said that DMPs are allocated by WMU and are only SUPPOSED to be used in that WMU.

[Meat Hunter]

The reason for having so many tags issued per season over what the target take is, is because the percentage for success rate is so low. The DEC figures they want x number of deer taken, give or take some. Their target number isnt locked in to the single animal.

The key is getting acurate percentage for "success rate " by getting reporting rates right.

[BizCT]

Buck tags should be transferrable too. I dont see the difference.

If Person A gets a buck, Person B gets a buck, and Person C gets a buck. 3 legal bucks were killed.

If Person A gets 3 bucks (his own, and Person B and C's signed over to him). 3 legal bucks were killed.

Maybe Person B/C can only hunt 2 days or something?

ANYBODY?

[burmjohn]

ANYBODY?

I don't think they should.

[BizCT]

why not? whats the difference?

I can have my 103 year old grandma sign over a doe permit, but not her buck permit? why?

Edited July 19, 2012 by Biz-R-OWorld

[burmjohn]

why not? whats the difference?

I can have my 103 year old grandma sign over a doe permit, but not her buck permit? why?

Because - Its a main tag, which is not meant to be transferred. There are less buck then does, and does are used to control the pop? I don't know why for sure but those are some reasons.