send letters for crossbows in NY

[Doc]

Since you will have nothing of value to respond with and never address the subject matter of my posts and simply spew how archers are special, I iwll not respond.

I guess that means that you have no answer for my question about why muzzleloaders require a separate season from the rest of the firearms users. That's ok, I didn't really think you could come up with one.

Doc

[bubba]

I guess my only answer wold be this MONEY simple as that. The state saw a way to make a dollar. I thought you could even figure this out.  However when the season ws started, it was for primitive weapons patched round balls only no scopes, and has morphed since then since there was more money in selling privlege stapms of more people got involved. If you have ever used a primitive muzzleloader, which I doubt, there is as much to it as archery, in fact sometime more to mke sure it iwll fire when needed.  The same as archery was recurves and long bows only. The archery groups fought to keep compound bows out of the special season, the same as muzzleloader groups fought to keep scoped magnum muzzleloaders out of the special season. The bottom line is it will happen whether we like it or not. And as I have stated just because the state allows i, does not mean I have to do it.  I hunt with a primitive muzzleloader during special seasons.  Do I own an inline no actually I own two. They get used during the rifle season we have here where I could use high powered cartridges, but rarely do. Now how about answering mine what is the real differences between a compound bow with all the let off, sights and pushing  carbon arrows over  300 fps and a crossbow If you can actually answer and not find a way to attack my post maybe I will respond if you can come up with an answer cuz I dont think there is much difference, other than it infringes on your need to own the woods. Oh and please do not feel that I decided not to respond because you have me painted into a corner or I think you have won some big debate.  The bottom line is that this has went everywhere but where the thread was intended. You turned it into an archery/muzzleloader debate  which has worked well to take the focus off the toic, and that wasnt what it was about. So happy hunting

[Chevy]

Bubba, if you really think the compound bow was such an infringement was it was added such a long time ago why would you support the further deterioration of that season by adding another weapon that is not a stick bow? If the compound was a mistake why go further down that road?  Is everything you say just a smoke screen to advocate crossguns and muzzleloader takeover of archery season?

The main difference/advantage of the crossgun which puts it in the gun category is that it does not have to be hand drawn and manually held on the game animal when it approaches. With a crossgun you just lay the stock on your shooting rest, put the scope on the animal when it comes by, and then pull the trigger just like during gun season.

You should know this being old school. 

[SteveB]

The main difference/advantage of the crossgun which puts it in the gun category is that it does not have to be hand drawn and manually held on the game animal when it approaches.

There you go forgetting about ground blinds and treestands - whose purpose is to hide movement from the deer. I have 17 stands set up - not one has a rail on it only 2 have a provision for one. I didn't put them on because they basically get in the way more then help. And I could not imagine trying to manuver a crossBOW around on one steathily and have more then a very limited range of shot possibilities.

[Doc]

Bubba-

Let me remind you who it was that turned this thread toward the muzzleloader. See if you recognize this quote:

"seems to me NYB is against anything that infringes upon their methods.  They fought an early muzzleloading season in the southern tier because they own the woods at that time. Funny part here in the nrthern zone bow hunters and muzzleloaders can hunt at the same time and it works fine.  Off topic I understand but it just seems there has to be some compromise here and none is being shown from one side on any changes."

So just to keep the record straight it was you who began the discussion of cramming muzzleloaders into bow season. And if you expect me to just let those attacks on bowhunters go by without response, you are wrong. And let's be honest ..... you really were trying to provoke a response weren't you? ..... lol.

Now, as far as your explanation of muzzleloading season, it sounds like you are admitting that muzzleloaders as currently defined by NYS really have no justification for special seasons outside of the regular gun season. I agree. If they currently defined muzzleloaders as the type of equipment you are talking about, i.e. primitive rifles using only patched round balls only no scopes that would be a different story. But that is not a limitation that NYS puts on muzzleloaders, is it?

As far as the difference between a compound bow and a crossbow, I will once again repeat a reply that I posted earlier in this thread:

"So what really are the differences in shooting recurves and longbows versus the compound? Well, as a matter of fact there is still the entire max draw weight that has to be encountered at some point through the draw cycle even with a compound. Also, apart from the hold-weight differences, the act of properly shooting both a recurve and a compound are exactly the same. All elements and disciplines of form are identical including the stance, draw, consistancy of anchor, consistancy of hand position, consistancy of bow arm bracing and muscle alignment, consistancy of sighting, back tension, release, follow through. Further, failure to abide by these disciplines results in the same penalties in terms of target results. So, all of these elements are required to shoot a compound, a recurve and a longbow and that applies whether you are talking sight shooting or instinctive. Now, tell me which of these archery related shooting disciplines apply to a crossbow?"

Of course aside from those obvious real archery shooting disciplines and procedures, there are also some other physical differences that I didn't bother to mention such as the bipod commonly mounted on the end of the stock and the scope that most often is a part of the crossbow paraphenalia and other common accessories that are difficult, impossible or impractical to put on a compound bow. And I will not even get into the potential differences of the future. Just like the radical changes that we saw in real bows, and the radical changes you have noted in muzzleloader technology, we know that crossbow technology has just begun its development, and as R&D money is supplied by their expansion, they will start to utilize this new platform to add new features that are currently only hinted at.

It seems strange that such obvious differences have to be pointed out to another archer. But at any rate, you asked and I have answered .....again.

Doc

[Doc]

The main difference/advantage of the crossgun which puts it in the gun category is that it does not have to be hand drawn and manually held on the game animal when it approaches.

There you go forgetting about ground blinds and treestands - whose purpose is to hide movement from the deer. I have 17 stands set up - not one has a rail on it only 2 have a provision for one. I didn't put them on because they basically get in the way more then help. And I could not imagine trying to manuver a crossBOW around on one steathily and have more then a very limited range of shot possibilities.

Ha-ha .... to listen to all the complaining about how clumsy heavy and awkward crossbows are, and how they aren't one bit better to use than real bows, I have to wonder why you are worrying about cramming them into bow seasons or any other seasons for that matter. To hear you guys tell it, they're only one step better than a club....lol.

[SteveB]

Try handling one - heavy, akward, and need a lot of horizontal clearance and has no interest for me using one.

But they are archery equipment - are taxed as such - and should be allowed in any bow season that is not primitive. Exaggerating the percieved advantages when in fact there are many disadvantages does not change that.

[Chevy]

If that's true Steve that you have no interest in using one, then why the crusade?  I suspect there is another agenda.

[WNYBuckHunter]

See, theres the problem. You guys seem to think those of us that are pro-crossbow have an agenda beyond what we have already stated. Many of us just want everyone to be allowed the choice of hunting with whatever archery equipment they choose to use in archery season. Theres no conspiracy or underlying objective.

You guys believe in UFOs, dont you?  ;D

[Chevy]

Who do you think built the pyramids?   

[WNYBuckHunter]

HAHAHAHA

[SteveB]

If that's true Steve that you have no interest in using one, then why the crusade?  I suspect there is another agenda.

My agenda is that it is wrong to keep any archery equipment out of the season based on anyone's desire that only their choice is "the one". And is is more then a little hypocritical of anyone using a modern tricked out compound to be against crossBOWS because they are "too easy".

If you want to suggest I have any other agenda, man up and post it rather then make vague accusations and dance around it.

[Chevy]

I didn't suggest. I wrote in plain english "I suspect there is another agenda."  Did I touch on something there? testy testy.

Oh, and I love the way that when I produce proof of my position which you are demanding you just dismiss it with B.S. that you can't back up or prove. 

[bubba]

Doc I love the twists.  I have no say in what a legal muzzleloader is in this state any more than you have a choice in what will soon be legal archery equipment.  I never said I wantes to cram muzzleloading down anyones throat. Where I live I lready have it two weeks a season.  I love how you can spin things. Where in my post did I say The southern tier needs a special muzzleloading season?  All I said was the archery groups whine every time there is a chance of change?  A guy sneaking in wih a crossbowlooking for an undisturbed deer is no different  then a guy with a longbow, compound or recurve doing the same.  Oh well I cant wait to see how you spin this one.  It is like it is magical and priveleged to use a bow to hunt, an dno on can disturb the wizards. 

[wztirem]

If that's true Steve that you have no interest in using one, then why the crusade?  I suspect there is another agenda.

My agenda is that it is wrong to keep any archery equipment out of the season based on anyone's desire that only their choice is "the one". And is is more then a little hypocritical of anyone using a modern tricked out compound to be against crossBOWS because they are "too easy".

If you want to suggest I have any other agenda, man up and post it rather then make vague accusations and dance around it.

Steve, I understand your point completely! As an avid bowhunter (recurve)for over thirty years I have "NO PROBLEM" with allowing crossbows to be used during any big game season! If the state could generate additional revenue by the sale of crossbow licenses to offset DEC operating costs, I am all for it.  If the introduction of crossbows during archery season attracts new hunters, enables former bowhunters with disabilities to bowhunt again, I am for it.

[bubba]

If that's true Steve that you have no interest in using one, then why the crusade?  I suspect there is another agenda.

My agenda is that it is wrong to keep any archery equipment out of the season based on anyone's desire that only their choice is "the one". And is is more then a little hypocritical of anyone using a modern tricked out compound to be against crossBOWS because they are "too easy".

If you want to suggest I have any other agenda, man up and post it rather then make vague accusations and dance around it.

Well said Steve

[Chevy]

All I said was the archery groups whine every time there is a chance of change? 

Ahh yes, the bowhunters are whiners because they won't roll over and give up a long established season quitely.

Maybe you should go to France and try your takeover there.      

[bubba]

as I have stated, I could care less. I have all I could ask for. Would I ever own a crossbow umm nope. I wont even own a compound bow.  You also took one line out of a whole post.  What are you rolling over and giving up by allowing a crossbow to be used.  If the traditional guys hadnt  rolled over, you would not have an archery season now yourself.  think about it.

[bpb]

  [move]

The bottom line is, when the Gov. signs the bill, it will become law.

[/move]

[bubba]

yup and like most law changes or the dec, it will tae two years to implement, so you and I snicker when I say this purists will have time to still play

[SteveB]

Testy? Perhaps a little when someone basically calls me a liar, smiles and runs away.

Like I said Chevy - man up and let us all know what my other "agendas" might be.

Here is your chance to discredit anything I have to offer - time to let your butt cash the check your mouth wrote.

[Doc]

Doc I love the twists.  I have no say in what a legal muzzleloader is in this state any more than you have a choice in what will soon be legal archery equipment.  I never said I wantes to cram muzzleloading down anyones throat. Where I live I lready have it two weeks a season.  I love how you can spin things. Where in my post did I say The southern tier needs a special muzzleloading season?  All I said was the archery groups whine every time there is a chance of change?  A guy sneaking in wih a crossbowlooking for an undisturbed deer is no different  then a guy with a longbow, compound or recurve doing the same.  Oh well I cant wait to see how you spin this one.  It is like it is magical and priveleged to use a bow to hunt, an dno on can disturb the wizards.

No twists ....... no spin ....... I am only responding to your own statements as you post them.

Doc

[bubba]

still waiting for you to post where I said the southern tier needed a muzzleloading season and I wanted to cram it down your throats.  if you cant then you are spinning because that was what you stated I said Im waiting

[bubba]

All I said was the archery groups whine every time there is a chance of change? 

Ahh yes, the bowhunters are whiners because they won't roll over and give up a long established season quitely.

Maybe you should go to France and try your takeover there.    

Actually archers did roll over and give in for the compound bows.  Now the compound bow hunters think they rule the archery season.  Personally, I think that since these Special seasons were started as primitive seasons, it should be moved back to  patched round ball flintlocks and long bows and recurves. 

[Doc]

still waiting for you to post where I said the southern tier needed a muzzleloading season and I wanted to cram it down your throats.  if you cant then you are spinning because that was what you stated I said Im waiting

So are you now saying that all the blather about how bowhunters are whiners and how they think they own the woods and how they should learn to share the woods with the muzzleloaders like the enlightened ones in the northern zone was not really something you meant? I kind of took that as meaning that you were in favor of muzzleloading seasons being jammed into the southern zone bow seasons. That was all just B.S. that you just said for effect? OK, I can accept that. I thought it was rather stupid stuff to be saying in the first place and I can certainly see why you would be backing away from it all now. I've got to admit that one does need a scorecard to keep up with just what you do believe.

Doc