send letters for crossbows in NY

[Doc]

Yes to all of the above. They are all hand drawn, hand held, BOWS that require all of the same form and mental disciplines and consistancies in order to be successfully and accurately shot. None of which applies to a crossbow. But then that is pretty obvious isn't it?

Actually, I already made that same point earlier in this very thread, but thank you for giving the opportunity to repeat it (again!). It is an important point that refutes the constant distortions when it comes to compounds and those people using them as a bogus precedent to jam crossbows into bow seasons.

A lot of people before us warned of this happening back when the compound acceptance arguments first took place. Who would have guessed it ......... it turns out they were right...lol. I wonder what kinds of things people of the future will try to cram into the bow season using crossbows as a precedent.  But then you don't really care about that do you?

Doc

So lets focus on the gadgets available for "bows". When will "bowhunters" start placing limits on what is/isn't proper add-on's to their bows and still feel their "bow" is no better than a xbow? Verticle bows have the same advantages as xbows (ie: triggers, scopes, string locking mechanisms, etc.)

You don't seem to care what products enhance the compound bow, nor does the NYB. So why care if xbow are allowed, especially since both "now" share the same attributes? The argument concerning xbows is based solely on semantics.

You bet. When I look at some of the accessories and crazy stuff we bowhunters have hung on our bows, it's obvious that we have just about given up on the idea of controlling the crazy techno-craze that has taken place. Who could ever have imagined back in the 70's when the ugly, relatively slow Allen Compound was introduced just what was to come? No wonder the attitudes toward archery have taken a "who cares" turn. And now we have a whole new platform to accelerate those technical advances. Imagine the things that can be done with a  stock to work off of. All ready I have seen video of a prototype of a functioning repeating cross bow. Also, now I have seen a crossbow that has the bow mounted backwards with a few extra pulleys mounted. What that does for them I'm not sure, but I'm sure there is some tecnical advantage that someone found. And we haven't even reached the stage where the crossbow manufacturers are raking the maximum amount of R&D money yet. But that will come and technical advances that we can't even imagine yet will follow just as surely as they did with the compound.  So yes, I do worry about the whole idea of changing and re-identifying legal archery equipment both past, present, and future. And I would think that anyone who values archery as a unique sport would be equally concerned, especially since it is obvious that we are on the cusp of a whole new round of such advances at a level of acceleratiion that we can't yet imagine.

We really shouldn't be surprised that the muzzleloaders are starting to try to lay claim to portions of our seasons. We no longer define ourselves as a hunting sport of skill and limitations, and now we are taking another giant step in the direction of moving archery toward the guns. Furthermore, I think the crossbow will accelerate this attitude and soften opposition to muzzleloaders moving into what has traditionally been archery seasons by stirring in a majority that no longer has any real ties to the bow.

Doc

[ny hunter]

I just don't see what the big deal is.Maybe crossbow well get us another week to the season?Look at the positive not the negative.I for one see no negative in this.Thats just me.

[Larry]

    Hey Chevy I cannot fine the definition of the word CROSS – GUN anywhere. I did find the definition of a Cross -  Bow. This definition is out of the Webster’s Dictionary & Thesaurus copy rite 1999.  Cross – Bow: A weapon consisting chiefly of a bow mounted crosswise near the end of a wooden stock.

Whether you agree or not with the cross- bow issue you should still call it a cross – bow and not just spout off the NYBH line of propaganda. Someone who doesn’t know anything about this issue wouldn’t know what you are talking about.

[sits in trees]

Yes to all of the above. They are all hand drawn, hand held, BOWS that require all of the same form and mental disciplines and consistancies in order to be successfully and accurately shot. None of which applies to a crossbow. But then that is pretty obvious isn't it?

Actually, I already made that same point earlier in this very thread, but thank you for giving the opportunity to repeat it (again!). It is an important point that refutes the constant distortions when it comes to compounds and those people using them as a bogus precedent to jam crossbows into bow seasons.

A lot of people before us warned of this happening back when the compound acceptance arguments first took place. Who would have guessed it ......... it turns out they were right...lol. I wonder what kinds of things people of the future will try to cram into the bow season using crossbows as a precedent.  But then you don't really care about that do you?

Doc

So lets focus on the gadgets available for "bows". When will "bowhunters" start placing limits on what is/isn't proper add-on's to their bows and still feel their "bow" is no better than a xbow? Verticle bows have the same advantages as xbows (ie: triggers, scopes, string locking mechanisms, etc.)

You don't seem to care what products enhance the compound bow, nor does the NYB. So why care if xbow are allowed, especially since both "now" share the same attributes? The argument concerning xbows is based solely on semantics.

You bet. When I look at some of the accessories and crazy stuff we bowhunters have hung on our bows, it's obvious that we have just about given up on the idea of controlling the crazy techno-craze that has taken place. Who could ever have imagined back in the 70's when the ugly, relatively slow Allen Compound was introduced just what was to come? No wonder the attitudes toward archery have taken a "who cares" turn. And now we have a whole new platform to accelerate those technical advances. Imagine the things that can be done with a  stock to work off of. All ready I have seen video of a prototype of a functioning repeating cross bow. Also, now I have seen a crossbow that has the bow mounted backwards with a few extra pulleys mounted. What that does for them I'm not sure, but I'm sure there is some tecnical advantage that someone found. And we haven't even reached the stage where the crossbow manufacturers are raking the maximum amount of R&D money yet. But that will come and technical advances that we can't even imagine yet will follow just as surely as they did with the compound.  So yes, I do worry about the whole idea of changing and re-identifying legal archery equipment both past, present, and future. And I would think that anyone who values archery as a unique sport would be equally concerned, especially since it is obvious that we are on the cusp of a whole new round of such advances at a level of acceleratiion that we can't yet imagine.

We really shouldn't be surprised that the muzzleloaders are starting to try to lay claim to portions of our seasons. We no longer define ourselves as a hunting sport of skill and limitations, and now we are taking another giant step in the direction of moving archery toward the guns. Furthermore, I think the crossbow will accelerate this attitude and soften opposition to muzzleloaders moving into what has traditionally been archery seasons by stirring in a majority that no longer has any real ties to the bow.

Doc

the repeater crossbow is just a joke invented by a guy(none hunter) who was looking for nothing more than a laugh, never intended for hunting use, and it couldnt be used for hunting do to laws that are already in place, and besides the thing runs on an electric motor that humms clicks and clacks the whole time it's in operation, i've seen it and would welcome anyone to use one in pursuit of deer so i could get a huge belly laugh!!

OK Doc on a more realistic note the other crossbows that you mention with backward limbs and all those extra scary pulleys do absolutley nothing as far as FPS, those features are for nothing more than reducing the bows overall width and in most cases they are slower (FPS) than traditional crossbows.

to sit there and scare yourself with these boogie men crossbow fairytails which are not based on any type of fact is a waste of time, i suggest that efforts made in scaring one self should be directed at the real enemy out there, the people who are working very hard with lots of money who wanna make your hunting season no existant...

[Chevy]

Larry, then stop calling a crossbow bolt an arrow. Crossguns shoot bolts not arrows.

[Doc]

Actually, I never said that the repeating crossbow was on the market and I did call it a prototype. Of course once again you missed the whole point of the examples as showing that crossbow technology is still in its infancy with huge potential and as the market acceptance grows, the technological growth will make the compound advances look primitive. And as a matter of fact, I saw the video and that repeating unit worked very good and showed the future capabilities of having the frame of a stock to work off of.

As far as the reversed crossbow, I don't know anything about your contention that it was done only to make it narrower. or even the contention that it is slower because of the design. And I certainly believe that it demonstrates the fact that all limits formerly applying to bows are now put on hold with that stock available to build on.

By the way, I read through the new NYS crossbow legislation (this is the state that I am concerned about) and didn't find any restrictions on repeater designs. In fact there are very few design limitations at all.

I understand that not everyone sees potential when they witness it, but take my word for it, that repeater shows one thing very clearly: that stock offers a whole new set of opportunities for all kinds of mechanisms and other speed increasing features. The reversed crossbow also shows that there are all kinds of physical boundaries in an actual bow that get erased when you include a stock.

However, if you find it inconvenient to acknowledge the potential and the fact that crossbow manufacturers are working diligently to make some of these things and more to become reality that's ok. I understand. But I would then also suggest that you also have to deny the wild advancements that the compound historically took since the introduction and acceptance of the Allen compound bow. And if you think that the crossbow does not provide a whole new platform of developments that are not available to bows, then you really are short-sighted. But then again, like I said before, you really don't care about that stuff anyway ..... right?

Doc

[Doc]

    Hey Chevy I cannot fine the definition of the word CROSS – GUN anywhere. I did find the definition of a Cross -  Bow. This definition is out of the Webster’s Dictionary & Thesaurus copy rite 1999.  Cross – Bow: A weapon consisting chiefly of a bow mounted crosswise near the end of a wooden stock.

Whether you agree or not with the cross- bow issue you should still call it a cross – bow and not just spout off the NYBH line of propaganda. Someone who doesn’t know anything about this issue wouldn’t know what you are talking about.

Yeah ....... That's what he said ....... a cross-gun ...... lol.

look, he can call it what ever he wants to. You understood what he was talking about .... right?

Doc

[sits in trees]

Actually, I never said that the repeating crossbow was on the market and I did call it a prototype. Of course once again you missed the whole point of the examples as showing that crossbow technology is still in its infancy with huge potential and as the market acceptance grows, the technological growth will make the compound advances look primitive. And as a matter of fact, I saw the video and that repeating unit worked very good and showed the future capabilities of having the frame of a stock to work off of.

As far as the reversed crossbow, I don't know anything about your contention that it was done only to make it narrower. or even the contention that it is slower because of the design. And I certainly believe that it demonstrates the fact that all limits formerly applying to bows are now put on hold with that stock available to build on.

By the way, I read through the new NYS crossbow legislation (this is the state that I am concerned about) and didn't find any restrictions on repeater designs. In fact there are very few design limitations at all.

I understand that not everyone sees potential when they witness it, but take my word for it, that repeater shows one thing very clearly: that stock offers a whole new set of opportunities for all kinds of mechanisms and other speed increasing features. The reversed crossbow also shows that there are all kinds of physical boundaries in an actual bow that get erased when you include a stock.

However, if you find it inconvenient to acknowledge the potential and the fact that crossbow manufacturers are working diligently to make some of these things and more to become reality that's ok. I understand. But I would then also suggest that you also have to deny the wild advancements that the compound historically took since the introduction and acceptance of the Allen compound bow. And if you think that the crossbow does not provide a whole new platform of developments that are not available to bows, then you really are short-sighted. But then again, like I said before, you really don't care about that stuff anyway ..... right?

Doc

hey Doc the crossbow was invented in the 70s, only 40 years ago and has in no way reached the end of the tracks as far as technology or performance, if that were the case we would still be driving Studebakers and flying cross country in prop planes.

there will be advancements in crossbow technology and vert compound technology both, and those things will have to be delt with as we come to those bridges, 400 fps vert compound bows are just about here...

[fasteddie]

Here is the next step after crossbows ...............

http://www.swivelmachine.com/html/rimfire.htm

[SteveB]

Here is the next step after crossbows ...............

http://www.swivelmachine.com/html/rimfire.htm

Standard attempt at deflection - and a poor one.

Uses explosives as propellent - not a string.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The reverse limb crossbows wont even be legal in NY, they have to meet a minimum 17 inch width requirement under the currently proposed bill and any repeating crossbow would also fail to meet the standard requirements. Crossbows were not invented in the 70s, they are thousands of years old and their technology is not in its infancy, it is just moving forward like everything else has since the beginning of time.

[Larry]

Hey remember the over draw craze of the 80’s & 90’s in case you were not around people would try to shorten their arrows down to sometimes less than 20 inches so is it a arrow or is it a bolt. So is a arrow a long bolt or is a bolt a short arrow.

[bpb]

LOL I wrote this,odd where your emails end up. 

Also the trap tag ID and the snapping turtle trap bills were passed in both houses.

    According to Assemblyman Sweeney's office they have 150 to 50+- letters in opposition to the crossbow.

According to a very connected DEC employee he stated ; sportsmen are talking between themsevles but they are not sending in letters of support.

I have to agree with the later statement as I've seen more chatter on the internet forums than support letters.

So, tell all your friends to fill up these 2 guys email ,fax and phone before Monday to let them know there are more than a handfull fo people who actually pay attention.

Tell them this. Make the Xbow legal,no restrictions,let the DEC decide where to use it at. PERIOD

Senator Antoine Thompson,

Chairman of Environmental Conservation Committee

902 LOB, Albany, NY 12247

Phone:518.455.3371

Buffalo Office: 716.854.8705

e-mail: [email protected]

Assemblyman Robert K. Sweeney,

Chairman of Environmental Conservation Committee.

622 LOB

Albany, NY 12248

Phone: 518.455.5787

District Office: 631.957.2087

e-mail: [email protected].

[Larry]

i think you are wrong on when the cross - bow was invented. the chinese invented it around 678 BC and they may have been ivented before then.

[Campwildwood]

Also, now I have seen a crossbow that has the bow mounted backwards with a few extra pulleys mounted. What that does for them I'm not sure, but I'm sure there is some tecnical advantage that someone found.

They also make one in verticle form as well Doc. So is it OK for verticles, but not horizontal?

We no longer define ourselves as a hunting sport of skill and limitations, and now we are taking another giant step in the direction of moving archery toward the guns.

I will agree that the hunting aspect of skills and limitations is dwindling, but thats been going on for the last 40 years and just human nature to make ease of everything we do in life. The great thing is, I rather give my fellow hunter that choice of what legal weapon and high tech "gadget" he chooses to use, rather than forbidding him/her on just semantics. You want to use a compound bow with all the high tech gadgets that fit on it, combined with all the other zillion gadgets available to hunt with, ie: rangefinders, blinds, self-climbers, carbon scent clothing, yadda yadda yadda, then why not a crossbow? Makes no sense.....lol To each his own, thats my point. As long as its legal (xbows may soon be), let the hunter hunt!

Furthermore, I think the crossbow will accelerate this attitude and soften opposition to muzzleloaders moving into what has traditionally been archery seasons by stirring in a majority that no longer has any real ties to the bow.

It was the NYB who proposed the early ML season, which had nothing to do with xbows at the time.

Doc

[erussell]

If crossbows are in ,AR is just around the corner if not already on the table to impliment. I would bet within the next 5 yrs you will see AR implimented in NYS. Just about every state hase some sort of AR already in place why is NY so far behind all the time. ???

[Doc]

Quote: "hey Doc the crossbow was invented in the 70s, only 40 years ago and has in no way reached the end of the tracks as far as technology or performance, if that were the case we would still be driving Studebakers and flying cross country in prop planes."

------------------------------------------------------------

What the heck are youy talking about? I think you are only several centuries off ..... lol.

Doc

[Doc]

The reverse limb crossbows wont even be legal in NY, they have to meet a minimum 17 inch width requirement under the currently proposed bill and any repeating crossbow would also fail to meet the standard requirements.

Another one who completely lost (or ignored) the whole point of the reply.

Doc

[Chevy]

These crossgun supporters will twist and grind the facts trying to fit this dam contraption into archery season.    Why does when something was invented even factor in this discussion? 

[Doc]

"They also make one in verticle form as well Doc. So is it OK for verticles, but not horizontal?"

I would really like to see this vertical bow that has the limb action reversed to the arrow direction. I'm not doubting your word, but I would just be curious to see how that would work. It's a hard concept to visualize.

---------------------------------------------------------

"I will agree that the hunting aspect of skills and limitations is dwindling, but thats been going on for the last 40 years and just human nature to make ease of everything we do in life."

I'm glad you agree. What I think we don't agree on is that I think that is a negative in the world of bowhunting, and I think it is time to try to control all that somewhat instead of promoting it.

------------------------------------------------------------

"The great thing is, I rather give my fellow hunter that choice of what legal weapon and high tech "gadget" he chooses to use, rather than forbidding him/her on just semantics. You want to use a compound bow with all the high tech gadgets that fit on it, combined with all the other zillion gadgets available to hunt with, ie: rangefinders, blinds, self-climbers, carbon scent clothing, yadda yadda yadda, then why not a crossbow? Makes no sense.....lol To each his own, thats my point. As long as its legal (xbows may soon be), let the hunter hunt!"

What I really want (in my own words) is to reserve bow seasons for bows. The other gadgets and hunting aids are separate subjects that also ought to be dealt with. But to me the issue is quite simple. How far away from the core weapon are we going to move in bow seasons? Are we now going to drop all limitations on what is called a bow? Are we now going to include weapons that don't even use bow shooting principles and techniques?

Just as the inclusion of the compound has become the bogus argument and precedent for inclusion of crossbows, exactly what even more inappropriate weapons will be included in bow seasons based on a crossbow inclusion? Yes I know that is a point that I keep repeating over and over but it is also a point that none of the replies have been able to address. We now see how each capitulation leads to the next. Is there not some point where we should be saying, "That's enough! No more bastardization of bow seasons". Simply because we did not have the foresight in the past to recognize what the compound bow would eventually lead to, is that any reason to move further down the same path? Can't we learn just a little from the past? Or is the question more like, "do we even care about such things as trying to salvage some sense of limitation and challenge in our bowhunting"? Perhaps that is now lost too. If that is the case then I would suggest that we simply eliminate all "special seasons" and have just one season where hunters simply choose whatever weapon they want to use.

------------------------------------------------------------

" It was the NYB who proposed the early ML season, which had nothing to do with xbows at the time."

Not an NYB decision that I agree with. They were being sensitive to the charges of "selfishness" over the stance on the previous muzzleloader season grab attempt and I believe they over-reacted in trying to show a spirit of cooperation. I don't agree with such a move. However, Unlike others, I can still support an organization without agreeing with every one of their decisions. I don't always agree with the NRA on every word and decision that they come up with either, but still am a member and supporter. So what? What's the point?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I really can't understand the opposition...With Hunter numbers on the way down and our sport always in the crosshairs of the Left....I would think we would want as many people coming into...back into.....the rich heritage we share. No on is "requiring" you us any hunting implement. It is choice...isn't that what we are all about, or at least should be. If you don't want to use it ..don't.

Having just come off our Independence weekend celebration. I wander if our forefathers would have shared any views here. Would they have looked any of the repeating rifle manufactures in the eyes and said "nope..not interested".

Regardless of any of our views, if we frame it inside one question we can't go wrong. "What is best for our Sport?"

And in this point in history Best is numbers and  fostering a growing interest.

[ny hunter]

So are we going to have an early ML season?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I do agre with Doc on the Bows only in Bow season....My point is there has to be a spot for this to be included. It only makes sense. Give the Cross bo an inclusion in the lsat 7 days of bow season...or allow it in the late bow muzzleloader. Why not as a legal implement during regular season. I would think the State would be drooling over the prospect of another $$$$ stamp.

[Chevy]

Culver, adding the crossgun will not increase hunter numbers. It will only shift some gun hunters into archery season.

[SteveB]

So the whole arguement against crossBOWS basically boils down to one thing - 1% letoff.

A few  have decided that 99% letoff is ok, but 100% is the devils spawn that will ruin everything. ;D