Deer Attractants, Toeing the Line or Crossing the Line

[wztirem]

Buck Bombs, Drip bags,heat activated attractants, scented soils and the like, is this baiting?

[nyslowhand]

Going to sit this one out this time around.

Only question is, Scented soils - is this the scrape additives or activators?

[Doc]

Most of what you mentioned doesn't bother me a whole lot. I have used scents back in my early years, but for the most part I don't mess around with a lot of that crap anymore. For one thing it's all too expensive and has a very spotty success track. Those that want to spend their money that way, are welcome to try it but it's not really the same as baiting where you are trying to condition the deer to rely on your bait source as their food source. I guess that is where I personally draw the line.

I'll admit it's a pretty fine line of distinction, and I probably would get too terribly excited about defending that position one way or the other.

Probably the one thing that I find most disturbing about baiting is the element of selfishness or whatever you want to call it, involved in trying to lure deer off your neighbor's property and on to your own with the intent of "hoarding" deer. Deer hoarding is a misleading term because it is practically an impossible thing to do, but I do think that that is what is behind the mentality and motivation of baiting.

Personally, my hunting philosophy is to hunt the deer the way I find them. I don't like trying to condition them or change their behavior just to make my hunting easier. That's just a personal limitation that I put on my own hunting. If I come across a food source that the deer are already using, that's simply wild animals feeding themselves as they traditionally do and finding that food source is a part of hunting. If I supply that food source, well then that's something else that looks more like behavior modification and also starts looking more like farming than it does hunting. Again, that's a personal distinction that I make for my own hunting. I like hunting wild, un-messed-around-with, animals.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Didnt we just go over this a couple of weeks ago? LOL

Scent is not bait.

Doc, what the heck is deer hoarding, I have never heard that term.

Why would trying to lure a deer into your hunting area be a bad thing? As long as you do it legally, whats the problem? Saying that would be saying that just about any tactic for attracting deer would be bad. Calls, rattling, decoys, etc etc.

I always get a kick out of people that put other hunters down for using legal means to hunt deer.

[Fantail]

I'm thinking some outfit can make a pill you take with coffee before sunrise, that turns your wizz into synthetic doe or buck wizz. What, it's not like I'm worried about making any more kids.

[fasteddie]

Using scents is legal and I don't bother with it anymore . Well , not much anyway . The real deer pee breaks down fast and I wonder how much of it has expired . They should put a "use by date" on each bottle . And , so mant folks use the Tink's 69 scent that it has to be all over the place .

I always wondered what deer think when all of a sudden all these extra scents are in the woods ! http://www.downsouthhuntingforums.com/images/smiles/crazynew2.gif[/img]

[burmjohn]

I used to use the stuff, and to be honest, I don't think I had one deer come over and sniff it or investigate it.  I think this year I'll try nothing, especially since I am on a new property.

[Doc]

Didnt we just go over this a couple of weeks ago? LOL

Scent is not bait.

We have had a lot of discussion about baiting vs. food plots

but I don't recall this exact topic being brought up recently. But I suppose it's possible.

Doc, what the heck is deer hoarding, I have never heard that term.

I never did before today either since I just made it up. But it relates to trying to change deer feeding habits and drawing deer way from competing hunter's land and onto your own in a semi-permanent fashion, through bait. In other words, hunter against hunter activity.

Why would trying to lure a deer into your hunting area be a bad thing? As long as you do it legally, whats the problem? Saying that would be saying that just about any tactic for attracting deer would be bad. Calls, rattling, decoys, etc etc.

Everything you mentioned is a temporary attraction not intended to permanently alter deer patterns. Baiting is something designed to condition deer to change their natural feeding patterns to suit hunting convenience. As I said, I am not interested in doing that. I hunt the deer as I find them without conditioning them in any way and I certainly have no interest in starting up a competition with neighbors and fellow hunters in an attempt to entice deer from their property to my own. That sort of thing just is not part of my hunting. I try to keep my hunting as a competition between me and the deer, not between hunters. That's simply my approach to hunting without any particular comment on what is right or wrong or good or bad for others.

I always get a kick out of people that put other hunters down for using legal means to hunt deer.

Nice shot, but I was careful to explain multiple times that I was talking about my own personal hunting philosophy and limitations. So don't be accusing me of putting anybody down. Hopefully we can all feel free to talk about our own personal philosophies and limitations regarding the way we view our own approach to hunting without the cheap shots and imagined offenses. Oh and by the way, regarding your last comment ..... baiting/feeding is not a "legal means".

Doc

[Doc]

Using scents is legal and I don't bother with it anymore . Well , not much anyway . The real deer pee breaks down fast and I wonder how much of it has expired . They should put a "use by date" on each bottle . And , so mant folks use the Tink's 69 scent that it has to be all over the place .

I always wondered what deer think when all of a sudden all these extra scents are in the woods ! http://www.downsouthhuntingforums.com/images/smiles/crazynew2.gif[/img]

Years ago, I tried the old "drag-rag" trick with some 2-year old Tink's 69, and did actually have it work. A buck came in just like a beagle with its nose to the ground. I put the container in the center of the trail with  the thought that it would stop him for a perfect broadside 20 yard shot. When he got to that container it was like somebody zapped him in the nose with a cattle prod. He swapped ends and left there are so fast with me just standing there wondering what happened. I tried the same trick several times in the next few years and nothing happened, so I eventually figured I would save myself the money and just forget about all that nonsense.

So yes, there are certain conditions where it works and certain deer that it works on, but is it worth the money? For me it just isn't consistant enough to warrant all the cost and effort. Not only that but his reaction when he got a whiff of the stuff at full strength left me wondering how many deer that you never see actually spook from the stuff?

Doc

[SteveMcD]

I'm an Aqua Velva Man myself!  ???

I'm sure many scents will bring about deer curiosity especially early in the season. However, the smarter bigger bucks know better.

Do they work.. sometimes. I gave up on scents years ago. Watched an old patriarch doe become spooked by nothing more than doe urine. Fact is it was a deer's scent she did not already recognize and become instantly wary of it.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Didnt we just go over this a couple of weeks ago? LOL

Scent is not bait.

We have had a lot of discussion about baiting vs. food plots

but I don't recall this exact topic being brought up recently. But I suppose it's possible.

Doc, what the heck is deer hoarding, I have never heard that term.

I never did before today either since I just made it up. But it relates to trying to change deer feeding habits and drawing deer way from competing hunter's land and onto your own in a semi-permanent fashion, through bait. In other words, hunter against hunter activity.

Why would trying to lure a deer into your hunting area be a bad thing? As long as you do it legally, whats the problem? Saying that would be saying that just about any tactic for attracting deer would be bad. Calls, rattling, decoys, etc etc.

Everything you mentioned is a temporary attraction not intended to permanently alter deer patterns. Baiting is something designed to condition deer to change their natural feeding patterns to suit hunting convenience. As I said, I am not interested in doing that. I hunt the deer as I find them without conditioning them in any way and I certainly have no interest in starting up a competition with neighbors and fellow hunters in an attempt to entice deer from their property to my own. That sort of thing just is not part of my hunting. I try to keep my hunting as a competition between me and the deer, not between hunters. That's simply my approach to hunting without any particular comment on what is right or wrong or good or bad for others.

I always get a kick out of people that put other hunters down for using legal means to hunt deer.

Nice shot, but I was careful to explain multiple times that I was talking about my own personal hunting philosophy and limitations. So don't be accusing me of putting anybody down. Hopefully we can all feel free to talk about our own personal philosophies and limitations regarding the way we view our own approach to hunting without the cheap shots and imagined offenses. Oh and by the way, regarding your last comment ..... baiting/feeding is not a "legal means".

Doc

First off, I wasnt taking a shot at you, but if the shoe fits....

The reasoning behind my comments is simple, the subject started out as asking if scents are baiting, they arent, so we arent talking about doing anything illegal. There is no fine line, its pretty clear and simple. If deer cant eat it, its not bait.

And Ill try and find the other thread, but Im almost sure we discussed almost the exact same thing recently.

[Doewhacker]

But isin't it bait if it drips on something and causes the deer to eat that.. example... scent drips onto dirt and deer are licking and eating the dirt... just an example.

[burmjohn]

They specifically state that "You may use cover scents and lures, such as doe urine, for deer hunting".  Anything other then that would be considered illegal.

[WNYBuckHunter]

But isin't it bait if it drips on something and causes the deer to eat that.. example... scent drips onto dirt and deer are licking and eating the dirt... just an example.

If its made for deer to consume, then yes. If its just an attractant (example Buck Bomb, scrape dripper, scented soil) are not meant for the deer to consume, so it would be legal.

[Doewhacker]

"However, it is illegal to place a salt block or mineral lick on lands inhabited by deer at any time of year. It is also illegal to feed deer. Some attractants that are marketed for deer are liquids or dissolving powders which deer may not directly consume, but the attractants may entice deer to feed on the material which absorbed the attractant.These types of produces would not be legal."

Here I looked up the offcial wording I was talking about, I was right.

[WNYBuckHunter]

"However, it is illegal to place a salt block or mineral lick on lands inhabited by deer at any time of year. It is also illegal to feed deer. Some attractants that are marketed for deer are liquids or dissolving powders which deer may not directly consume, but the attractants may entice deer to feed on the material which absorbed the attractant.These types of produces would not be legal."

Here I looked up the offcial wording I was talking about, I was right.

Right, like C'mere Deer, Deer Cane and the sort, not a scrape dripper or scented dirt.

[erussell]

I like to use doe in heat and buck pee with a little rattling to get there attention then when they come in to check it out, use the doe can and they come stumbling right in, sometimes  I used a drag rag to my stand one time and had a basket racked 8 come right in on the trail with his nose to the ground right to where I had poured some out on the ground at 15 yrds. He stood there with his nose in it taking these deep breaths and lip curlling. Finally he noticed me sitting above him snickering and left in a hurry.

[First-light]

Killed a PY buck coming into a scrape I doctored with Tinks 69 gel. Also have had on many occasions bucks checking out scent bottles left on trees.

I think it helps but to each his own.

[erussell]

what annoys me is its illegal to bait in NY right. So why are places like Gander Mnt. allowed to sell it in their stores. Is it because NY hunters are so honest that they would never, ever buy bait and use it to hunt over in NY? I don't think so. Thats why I try to get all my stuff at other Sporting good stores. Not to Mention Gander Mnt is way over priced, You can get guns at Dick's for half the price of GM. And I love there token signs around the bait, about how it's illegal to use bait in NY and there products are for agricultural use only. What a crock of crap, either make it legal, which im against, or close the loop hole so these bone heads can't sell it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Erussell---not illegal to sell it. I actually bought some a few years back and took it to southern CT for a buddy of mone. since it was legal to bait there he had a hard time finding any variety on short notice. Since I worked out there I made the drop for him...lol. I felt like a smuggler. I did go with him a couple times and while I wasn't carrying a gun I don't see the draw in that hunting. They litterally were like cows coming in to eat.

Mark me down as not for it too. but it isn't illegal to sell...or posess...just to use.

[erussell]

I know its not illegal to sell, but it should be, in a state where baiting deer is illegal. But then again you could just go down to your local Agway and probably get the same thing legally and use it illegally. I just find it laughable that GM has signs up stating that there DEER bait is actually for AG use. When there packages disclose how to use the BAIT to attract DEER, and not feed horses and cows. It makes me twitch a little at their dishonesty.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The only dishonesty is by the people that use it. GM says its illegal to use for baiting deer. Thats all they have to do. It is what it is. If people really want it, they will get it whether GM carries it or not.

[Doc]

If its made for deer to consume, then yes. If its just an attractant (example Buck Bomb, scrape dripper, scented soil) are not meant for the deer to consume, so it would be legal.

Is this something actually quoted from some official source or a response from someone official who really knows, or just a home-made definition of what constitutes "bait"? I'm thinking that I might make the same kinds of assumptions myself, but it would be interesting to know what the official baiting definitions look like or how this stuff is officially interpreted by DEC personel or judges. Anybody have the real authentic scoop on any of this stuff?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Q and A section right off the DEC website-

Q: What types of attractants are legal for deer hunting?

A: You may use cover scents and lures, such as doe urine, for deer hunting. However, it is illegal to place a salt block or mineral lick on lands inhabited by deer at any time of year. It is also illegal to feed deer. Some attractants that are marketed for deer are liquids or dissolving powders which deer may not directly consume, but the attractants may entice deer to feed on the material which absorbed the attractant. These types of produces would not be legal.

[Doc]

Q and A section right off the DEC website-

Q: What types of attractants are legal for deer hunting?

A: You may use cover scents and lures, such as doe urine, for deer hunting. However, it is illegal to place a salt block or mineral lick on lands inhabited by deer at any time of year. It is also illegal to feed deer. Some attractants that are marketed for deer are liquids or dissolving powders which deer may not directly consume, but the attractants may entice deer to feed on the material which absorbed the attractant. These types of produces would not be legal.

That's a pretty iron-clad definition. I don't think that leaves a whole lot of room for interpretation or question. I do think it would have been clearer to straight out say that if it is a food attractant, it is automatically assumed to be illegal bait or food for deer.