cull bucks

[coonhunter]

Any of you guys or gals use your tags on cull bucks to try and get them out of the breeding pool? The main farm I hunt had a lot of big bodied 6 and 7 points. In the last ten years I have killed quite a few of them that dressed out as high as the low to mid 190's. Finally, it seemed that we were mostly getting nice eights at 3 years old. Well, last year, a big bruiser of a six showed up and we didn't get him killed. Today my buddy got him, but he definitely got to spread his genes at least for a couple years. He dressed out in the high 180's and had a grand total of about 80 inches of horn. Sucks to use a tag for him, but we feel it makes our chances of seeing nicer racks a lot better. We do even have the second ten point in about 20 years of hunting showing up once in awhile. I can tell you that around this farm, bucks like to grow clean eight point racks. A ten is a rarity, and the last one was killed at 2 and a half with a rifle after I had let him walk a bunch of times during bow season. It sucked for me, but I was happy for the hunter. I just like people to have a place to hunt and to enjoy themselves.

[dave6x6]

I think your wasting your time, but if it makes you feel better, then go ahead and shoot them.

[SteveB]

Why would it suck shooting an older mature buck?

[coonhunter]

The fact that it is a mature and wiser buck is not the issue at all. When you know the rut is getting ready to kick in and we know of a couple of real nice bucks in the area, of course he would have rather let him walk to maybe get a chance at a bigger one. And Dave may be right. Maybe we are wasting our time, but, I know for a fact that we see a lot more 2 and a half year old eight points than we ever did years ago. That is the reason we try to get these bucks if we get the chance. It really is a hard call because it is an open farm and like most parts of the state, if a hunter sees horns, it is shot. The wild card in the whole deal, is that there is a thick swamp that is almost impossible to get into except in the coldest of seasons. That is the number one reason we have some nice bucks on this farm every year. Most of the good bucks are killed during bow season before they really get pressured. I know about half way back to the car, we were wishing the snow was still on the ground. Always a tough, long drag where we hunt.

[Lawdwaz]

This ain't Texas.........

[WNYBuckHunter]

You cannot change the genetics in a wild herd. Its been proven. It only works in a fenced in herd, and even then, they introduce better genetics (deer with better genetic lines are released into the pen) at the same time as they cull, and it still takes a long time.

[bubba]

Haha cull bucks. So you would prefer a 160 pound buck with bone than a 190 pound buck with scrub antlers. Genetics mean more than antlers. Body size is as important. But if you prefer non edible antlers and as it seems to me to be a lot of boasting go ahead.

[TreeGuy]

Careful.....soon there may be a GR, genetics restriction....lol

[coonhunter]

Tough crowd. I know we have a ton of fun hunting the way we do, and the other hunters on the farm have fun hunting the way they do, so it all works out. As for bragging, don't expect it from me. All our deer are butchered and eaten at our homes and friends' homes so of course we try to get as big of deer as we can and are stingy when we get doe tags holding out for nice big does. A few pictures for memories that is about as close to bragging as you will get from me. Just because we try for some nice racks doesn't mean we expect everyone else to do the same. We spent many years shooting the first buck that came along just like the majority of hunters. Then we started bowhunting and saw unpressured deer and bigger bucks, and we just decided to change our goals. Just how it worked out for us. Many years the only tags we fill now are doe tags or dmaps. No feelings of being better than anybody else. Hell, we are adult family men with a lot more responsibilities than killing deer. Just make some posts to exchange ideas with people is all.

[growalot]

If it's a really big deer...I'll take it...but still it would have to have at least 6pts...if it's a smaller deer with a seriously messed up rack... I've seen more than one year...I'd take it..

You may not be able to change the genetics in a wild deer population ..but you can't tell me that in certain areas...genetics can't be readily seen in buck one generation to the next...I've seen it here...particularly shaped racks..either in basket or the "long horn" shaped racks we get ...you can tell what did the most breeding in the area any particular year....

[coonhunter]

That's what I am talking about Growalot. Maybe it is just a coincidence that we see more nice racks than when we started. It just seems like a lot of the bucks that make it through a season have 14-16 inch wide basket racks now. Before we had a lot of big 4 and 5 pointers even if they made it to 3 1/2. I'm not a scientist or a biologist, so I am just going by what we have seen over the last several years. It may be as simple as the fact that we don't shoot the first buck we see anymore. I just don't know, but it seems to work for us.

[nyantler]

That's what I am talking about Growalot. Maybe it is just a coincidence that we see more nice racks than when we started. It just seems like a lot of the bucks that make it through a season have 14-16 inch wide basket racks now. Before we had a lot of big 4 and 5 pointers even if they made it to 3 1/2. I'm not a scientist or a biologist, so I am just going by what we have seen over the last several years. It may be as simple as the fact that we don't shoot the first buck we see anymore. I just don't know, but it seems to work for us.

I have no idea where the concept of culling bucks because of antler size has anything to do with deer management. The fact that you have bucks with smaller or bigger racks has nothing to do with culling or not culling deer.. because you are NOT a scientist or biologist you should be spending more time concerning yourself with the basics like food sources, doe harvest, and yearling buck protection before thinking about taking particular bucks out of the gene pool.

What culling really is in my opinion... is an excuse for hunters, that claim they pass on younger bucks, to justify killing a young buck by calling it a mature, genetically inferior buck... when in fact it is just a young buck with a common youngster rack that the hunter can't resist pulling the trigger on.

Edited November 4, 2012 by nyantler

[bubba]

+1

[KEVA]

Seems a bit hostile of a response nyantler. Coonhunter is just looking for a discussion on the subject, and that is what many of the replies have offered. Though opposing views could be shared in a less derogatory manner. If you read his post you would see some of the bucks they culled weighed 190 dressed. That is not a young buck, but then again I am not a biologist.

Coonhunter, sounds like you have a nice area to hunt in. That swamp sounds golden for helping protect the more intelligent mature deer. As for culling bucks, I would have to agree with most the guys here. A wild herd has too much gene flow to effectively control what genetics get passed. I could see how killing a buck with a rare trait could help prevent that trait from being passed, but large bucks with few points are common and will continue passing their genes. I would say that your groups desire to cull has led to better hunting practices. Passing on younger bucks means a longer season trying to wait out for the big guy, the more time in stand the more bucks you will see. Also, experience should have improved you as hunters over the years. My guess is you have all become more experienced outdoorsman and that is why you are seeing more desirable deer.

My advice, take the mature bucks regardless of the number of points. Frankly, I feel most achieved over the age of my deer and the way it is taken. I won't take a 1.5 year with a gun, but took one with the bow this year. Felt fantastic to harvest a deer with my bow and I couldn't have been happier. Each hunter has their own goals, and as long as one gets the thrill or puts meat on the table who cares how big the deer was. You brought up a good topic, thanks for the thread.

Don't let a couple of harsh responses get to you, that is unfortunately how most hunting forums end up.

[KEVA]

Well this topic peeked my interest so I went and read up using scholarly resources. The reference will be at the end of the post, but I am not sure you will have easy access to it. I accessed it through my college library database.

The study concluded that it was not practical to impact antler size on free ranging deer through selective harvest. The study looked at two antler characteristics, number of points and gross Boone and Crockett antler score. The study relied on previous studies to come up with numeric values, which it ran through models which excluded envirnmental effects. The models looked at two different cases, captive deer and free ranging. The captive did show a marked improvement over an eight year period. Almost doubled AP and score, and the study noted these changes were similiar to those seen in observational studies. Giving this study some more credibility.

The models only yielded slight improvement for free ranging deer over a much longer twenty year period. An increased AP(antler points) of 0.8 was given.

Things to consider:

-The study relied on some assumptions, but was conservative in these assumptions. For example, the only deer removed were culled (all desirables had the opportunity to pass their genetics). Immigration of new animals was not included in calculations (you had greater control over genetics than a real world instance)

-The captive deer showed marked improvement because both male and female were selected. Females were selected based on exstensive pedigrees. In free ranging deer you can only select against males based on antlers(females don't have antlers but do pass on genetic information affecting antlers).

- The study looked at four variables of selective harvest of which three yielded a correlation; mating ratio M:F, heritability (unknow), and age structure. Mating ratio proved most significant, then heritability, then age structure. Therefore, the most effective selection for impacting antlers is to alter the mating ratio to the healthiest state.

Conclusion: It is not practical to impact antler size by controlling free ranging deer genetics through culling. Immigration of new animals would prevent any impact. Does would continue to carry the undesirable genes. Some undesirables would mate before being harvested, and some undesirables would survive each year. Some desirables would be harvested before mating. Environmental impacts would make it difficult to distinguish between deer with desirable genes and undesirable genes. Antlers of young deer can be impossible to determine whether desirable or not, and older deer have already been passing on their genetics. State regulations would prevent you from harvesting enough deer to substantially impact the population.

Hope people find this interesting. If not, sorry for the long post. This is only one study, and it did use models (not observations). I read through it though, and it seemed more than sufficient for determining selection of free ranging deer is not effective in controlling antler genetics. The assumptions were conservative, and many unaddressed factors would only make managing free ranging deer more difficult.

Reference:

Stephen, L. W., Demarais, S., Bronson, K. S., Randy, W. D., Brian, P. K., & Kenneth, L. G. (2012). Effects of selective harvest on antler size in white-tailed deer: A modeling approach.

Journal of Wildlife Management,

76

(1), 48-56. Retrieved from

http://search.proque...accountid=12085

Edited November 4, 2012 by KEVA

[coonhunter]

Keva, the one really good point in that article is that the does continue to pass on their traits, and there is no way for us to tell which one they are. Thanks for taking the time to post a reply based on facts that you took the time to look up. And yes, we are fortunate in the fact that we have had a great place to hunt since I was a teenager. The swamp is the key to for getting bucks through the gun season. Believe me, every year someone will get the bright idea to try and still hunt through it, and it is just too thick and full of water to do anything but skirt the edges. I am for the most part a sitter, and you can probably guess where I sit the opening day of rifle season.

[coonhunter]

A couple of you pretend to know something about how my partner and I hunt. Not everyone thinks they have to kill something to enjoy themselves. I passed up shots this morning at a young six and a 2 1/2 year old eight at ranges of 10 and 24 yards. It is easy for me to pass these youngsters up because I don't care if I get a buck or not. We usually have a couple bucks targeted and sometimes we are able to harvest them, and sometimes we don't. We always have plenty of does for meat no matter what. I'm not trying to grow a boone and crocket buck. We have never seen a buck here that even came close, but most years at least one of us can get an opportunity at an eight point with an 18-20 inch spread. And once in awhile a nice buck we have never seen will show up. Everybody has different views on how to enjoy deer hunting. I don't have any idea why anyone wants to rain on someones' fun. But, I guess that is how these forums work.

[bubba]

if you truly hunt that way, why post about culling bucks like it is so important to your hunting management?

[Paula]

coon, everyone has an opinion and people here aren't afraid to share it. makes for a good debate/forum. Just don't let the responses stop you from posting

[fasteddie]

I don't buy the "cull buck" bit either but I think I am going to lower my standards this season . I have been passing on 5 pt and less for several seasons . I have also passed on small 6's only to eat a bunch of tags . I have only had one deer close enough to shoot this season but he knew where I was and I couldn't take a shot . Personally I don't have the luxury to pick and choose . I would like to have a nice healthy doe come within range but if it happens be be a small rack buck , it will be meat in the freezer .

[coonhunter]

Bubba, I was wondering what other people do about these bucks. Not everyone has the luxary of passing on bucks like we do, but some on here do. I got a couple of good answers on here and in private. Just irritating to be called a liar when people don't even know me or my hunting land. I didn't even shoot a buck last year with a bow or a gun, but guess what? It didn't ruin my season. My buddy got a nice eight with his bow, and a nice eight with his gun. Great year for him, and I was right there enjoying it with him. Neither of them were quite 18 inches wide, but they sure were nice bucks, and they sure did eat nice too. My season this year is already a success because my buddy scored again, and I took his daughter out for the youth season and she shot one too. What more can a guy ask for? It is not all about the kill for me. I have hunted a long time and been fortunate enough to have good land to hunt. I have fun sharing my good fortune.

Fast Eddie, if I was in your shoes I would probably take any deer I saw just to get meat in the freezer too. But remember, just because it is NY doesn't mean the hunting is all bad.

[bubba]

see I like big deer too, but what they have on their heads means nothing to me. What they have on their haunches and ribs means much more. I would pass on a 160 pound 10 for a 180 pound 6 point anytime. That is because I do like the meat and the bone on their head is secondary to me.

[Paula]

Bubba, I was wondering what other people do about these bucks. Not everyone has the luxary of passing on bucks like we do, but some on here do. I got a couple of good answers on here and in private. Just irritating to be called a liar when people don't even know me or my hunting land. I didn't even shoot a buck last year with a bow or a gun, but guess what? It didn't ruin my season. My buddy got a nice eight with his bow, and a nice eight with his gun. Great year for him, and I was right there enjoying it with him. Neither of them were quite 18 inches wide, but they sure were nice bucks, and they sure did eat nice too. My season this year is already a success because my buddy scored again, and I took his daughter out for the youth season and she shot one too. What more can a guy ask for? It is not all about the kill for me. I have hunted a long time and been fortunate enough to have good land to hunt. I have fun sharing my good fortune.

Fast Eddie, if I was in your shoes I would probably take any deer I saw just to get meat in the freezer too. But remember, just because it is NY doesn't mean the hunting is all bad.

someone sent you a private message just to call you a liar?

[bubba]

ahahaha good one

[Paula]

ahahaha good one

what that someone did that? that is terrible!