NYS DMP Lottery

[jimbodwb]

I have always wondered why it is not a first come first served for DMP's. I don't understand the logic behind the lottery. Every year the DEC has to try to give out 2nd chance DMP's in Nov. Wouldn't it make more sense to just hand all of the DMP's out right away. They set a number for each WMU so why not just hand them out to the first ones who apply for them? I got one this year but it is only the 3rd time in 17 years of hunting I have received one.  I did not apply for the first 6 years but for the last 11 I have and only got 3. At one point I had 4 pref points before I got one. Can someone who knows the reason please explain this to me? Also, is there other states that do this or is it just NY?

[ADKSasquatch]

I don't know about the DMPs, but when it comes to permits to hunt state parks, first come first serve is terrible for anyone that works.  I prefer the lottery system.  At least I know I'll get one every few years.  A first come first serve basis, I'd never get one.

[fasteddie]

Why fix something that works ? The LOTTERY system works quite well . I get 2 every year !  :

[bubba]

could you imagine the number of people waiting in line first day to get a license.  The system would crash.  There would be fights, people would shoot at each other and you would not dare cross over the line on the floor the other guy was standing on.  Other than orange, it sounds like a day hunting in the southern zone.  (I am just kidding folks, no need to panic.)  But seriously, there would be such a rush the first day it would crash the system. I do agree and have said several times, there should be no left over permits when people are gettng turned down.  Hand them out with the license sales. People might be more willing to spend the 10 bucks, if they have to.  Last year I had three preference points and got turned down and a friend who had no points got a permit for our area.  I did get one mailed to me later, which should never happen.   

[fasteddie]

Also , think about the stores that sell special items that are being put on the market ( new I-Pods , etc ) and have people standing , sitting , camping in line a day or so before the store opens to make a purchase and trample one another to get in ...... I know it's an exaggeration , but it's not that far fetched that someyhing like that could happen on a smaller scale .

I would assume that most of the hunter's have jobs and in no way could they be lining up for a 1st come 1st served basis for doe permits .

I have the Sportsman's Lifetime license . Although I didn't get it in the mail until August 16 , the issue date is printed as "July 8 " so I would have a 5 week advantage on anyone standing in line to get doe permits . Would that be fair ?

[jimbodwb]

I understand a little better now. I guess it would not be fair to those who could not get out to get their license early. And as for the Lifetime license holders, I think all lifetime license holders should get preference just for giving the state all that money at one time. I do not have a lifetime license but I sure do wish I had got it a few years ago when the doe tag was included with it.

But how fair is it for someone to apply for 4 years in a row and get turned down 4 years in a row? If you get denied one year you should get it the next. A preference point should guarantee you a permit. I know guys who applied for the same WMU as I did and got a permit all 4 years I was denied. How is that fair?

[steve863]

What I would do is eliminate the DMP's altogether.  I would give everyone a buck permit and a doe permit that could be used anywhere in the state.  No extra tags would be available for bowhunters or muzzleloader hunters to kill any more bucks or doe in their special seasons.  Each hunter would have a two deer maximum no matter which weapon they choose to kill them with, just as we do with turkey for example.  I think this would be the best solutions where we wouldn't have game hogs killing too many deer, and it would beat any AR restrictions in existence where no hunter would kill more than one buck per year and this would surely guarantee that we'd have more bucks grow to an older age.  If the state sees a need for more does to be taken in any specific region, then they can easily issue extra permits there if they wish.

[nyslowhand]

could you imagine the number of people waiting in line first day to get a license.  The system would crash.  There would be fights, people would shoot at each other and you would not dare cross over the line on the floor the other guy was standing on. 

Black friday is after Thanksgiving.

Would we call this Blaze Orange monday? ???

[Doc]

What I would do is eliminate the DMP's altogether.  I would give everyone a buck permit and a doe permit that could be used anywhere in the state.  No extra tags would be available for bowhunters or muzzleloader hunters to kill any more bucks or doe in their special seasons.  Each hunter would have a two deer maximum no matter which weapon they choose to kill them with, just as we do with turkey for example.  I think this would be the best solutions where we wouldn't have game hogs killing too many deer, and it would beat any AR restrictions in existence where no hunter would kill more than one buck per year and this would surely guarantee that we'd have more bucks grow to an older age.  If the state sees a need for more does to be taken in any specific region, then they can easily issue extra permits there if they wish.

Nope. It'll never happen. The DEC prizes their tools of mass destruction too much to ever give them up.....lol. No seriously, I have seen times and places where freedom to issue large amounts of permits was required, and the only way that deer herds could be brought back under control. The problem is that they never seem to know when to stop. ;D  I guess I have to admit that the antlerless permit system is necessary and probably the best way to tailor the harvest to local-ish herd and habitat conditions. I'm not sure they have really mastered the use of the system, but I would not like to see it replaced by any one-size-fits-all ways of managing the state herd.

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I would think with todays computers it should work like this.....lottery the first picks...if any are left....mail them to those who made it their second selection....based on random from the whole pool...or the ones that bought them first...until thw quantity is gone....mu 2 cents

[nyslowhand]

Don't know, sounds a little too complicated..!?!

We are talking about the NYS DEC here. :-X

[Doc]

Ok, so lets really get into the details of it all. How do you suppose they use the preference points of the landowner stuff. Do they simply flat-out give them the permit or do they somehow factor in some better odds for those that have these preferred items? It all sounds so complicated, I'm not sure how I would design the system myself. It's pretty tricky stuff. It's not all that important, but it sure does get the curiosity going, and then too, maybe it is all that important for those people that habitually get turned down......lol.

Doc

[Fairgame]

What steve863 said about the one buck one doe tag would be a great thing, and then have extra dmp only where needed to controll population.  That actually sounds really good.  The lottery DMPs are given out in certain zones

[Doc]

What steve863 said about the one buck one doe tag would be a great thing, and then have extra dmp only where needed to controll population.  That actually sounds really good.  The lottery DMPs are given out in certain zones

Not every location should have a mandated requirement of handing out even the one DMP. Note that some areas in NYS have no DMPs available 9and generally for good reason). And that's the kind of freedom the DEC should have. I really don't like trying to manage the entire state with cast iron rules that have little or no flexibility. That's one of the reasons that WMUs were established in the first place, so that specific herd/habitat conditions could be accomodated without subjecting the entire state to the same management activities. They did one good thing with the establishment of WMUs and the DMP system. There's no need to undo that one good thing.

As far as the one-buck rule, I'm not sure that you would really see that much of a difference. It would be interesting to know how many people actually get more than one buck per season now. It could be that the perception that a significant percent of hunters actually do harvest more than one buck is wrong. There's no point in establishing a rule that would have no effect. So as far as I'm concerned, this would need a bit more research before I would get behind it.

Doc

[bubba]

I think more young bucks aka button horns are taken with DMP's than people realize. When the yearly take information is completed, it just says buck take and doe take. It dies not break down number of points etc. I wish it would because from what I have seen especially on my state in land hunting days, a lot of young bucks are taken out before they get a chance to mature and a DMP is put on them, which is legal. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

What did you guys think of the old system....I grew up in an area with low DMP numbers....but we use to at least get one every other year...never went 2,3,4 years like some of the horror stories I hear

[Doewhacker]

I think more young bucks aka button horns are taken with DMP's than people realize. When the yearly take information is completed, it just says buck take and doe take. It dies not break down number of points etc. I wish it would because from what I have seen especially on my state in land hunting days, a lot of young bucks are taken out before they get a chance to mature and a DMP is put on them, which is legal.

Some DEC reports show adult male and fawn male, usually the fawn male numbers run in the 18-30K range every year state wide.

Anyone remember the return rate for doe permits, I think its in the 1 out of 6 range but I'm not sure. They can hand out a million tags and still only get a limited return on them. I don't really have a huge problem with the current system, but I would if I were a just a gun hunter.

[steve863]

Nope. It'll never happen. The DEC prizes their tools of mass destruction too much to ever give them up.....lol. No seriously, I have seen times and places where freedom to issue large amounts of permits was required, and the only way that deer herds could be brought back under control. The problem is that they never seem to know when to stop. ;D  I guess I have to admit that the antlerless permit system is necessary and probably the best way to tailor the harvest to local-ish herd and habitat conditions. I'm not sure they have really mastered the use of the system, but I would not like to see it replaced by any one-size-fits-all ways of managing the state herd.

Doc

I didn't say it was likely to happen, but I honestly think it would work better than the system we already have.  Places like the Adirondacks where they don't issue doe permits wouldn't get hit any harder than it already is.  Not like the locals don't kill doe up there with bow tags and muzzleloader tags.  Instead of the possibly two doe they currently may take with a bow and muzzleloader tag, they would be allowed only one with the system I suggested.  I also doubt that down staters will be flocking up there to kill a doe when they will have a doe tag that they could fill closer to home.  I don't think there would be too many negatives with this system. 

I would agree that there probably aren't too many hunters that get more than one buck per year, but there are some.  One buck per year should be enough for any hunter.  Make it a rule that one buck is all anyone can bag, and this can't but help keep more bucks around for another year. 

[fasteddie]

I wonder if the Insurance Companies hammer the DEC to have more deer killed as it must cost a fortune to the Insurance Companies for Deer / Vehicle accidents .

[Mr VJP]

On the contrary.  I think it allows them to charge everyone a lot more money for their auto insurance.  They are not losing money.  Just read the profit statements that come out of insurance companies every year.

Sure they pay out a lot of claims, but they rake in a lot more from all the drivers that don't hit deer.

[Doc]

On the contrary.  I think it allows them to charge everyone a lot more money for their auto insurance.  They are not losing money.  Just read the profit statements that come out of insurance companies every year.

Sure they pay out a lot of claims, but they rake in a lot more from all the drivers that don't hit deer.

I don't think anybody believes that insurance companies are in jeopardy of going out of business, but if they do not take part in lobbying for things that will cut their costs, they would be the first industry that I have ever heard of that didn't. My guess is that they are always interested in having outgoing funds staying in their own pockets.

As a matter of fact, the DEC on their own web-site talk about "motorists interests" as being one of the stakeholders that's eligible for inclusion in the CTF on establishing deer density goals for the DEC. I don't know, but I don't think they are talking about the AAA or Slick Charlie's used car lot.

Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Economics 101-----if you don't want to raise the price.......best wat to increase profit is cut cost.....set premiums based on the amout of payout for the deer collisions and them get rid of more deer to decrease teh incident rate

[Slugger09]

I don't believe first come, first serve would work.  Don't forget there are still people taking the hunter education classes as we speak, so does that mean that they don't get a chance at a doe permit?  I think in fairness the way it is now is the best way.

[Doc]

I didn't say it was likely to happen, but I honestly think it would work better than the system we already have.  Places like the Adirondacks where they don't issue doe permits wouldn't get hit any harder than it already is.  Not like the locals don't kill doe up there with bow tags and muzzleloader tags.  Instead of the possibly two doe they currently may take with a bow and muzzleloader tag, they would be allowed only one with the system I suggested.  I also doubt that down staters will be flocking up there to kill a doe when they will have a doe tag that they could fill closer to home.  I don't think there would be too many negatives with this system. 

I would agree that there probably aren't too many hunters that get more than one buck per year, but there are some.  One buck per year should be enough for any hunter.  Make it a rule that one buck is all anyone can bag, and this can't but help keep more bucks around for another year.

It's not the situation in the Northern Zone that bothers me about the proposal set up an iron clad rule to max out the doe take to one per hunter. I'm guessing that the weather in most of the Northern Zone is probably a self-regulating factor when it comes to deer over population.

However, I have seen herd populations where such a change would simply hamstring the DEC to the point where they couldn't control the population adequately in many areas of the southern zone. What makes me say that is that I remember the size of the herd back in the late 80's when I personally witnessed the huge deer yards at the southern end of Honeoye Lake. I saw the stripped woods all up and down the east lake road where habitat was destroyed for several years, and in fact has not fully recovered even today. I remember having to almost push deer out of the road because they hardly had enough energy to move by themselves. I remember seeing hundreds of snow covered mounds out in the fields that each represented a starved deer. Also there was images of dead deer hanging on the fences that simply didn't have the strength to clear them with their back legs because of starvation. That was about the time that the DEC started to issue multiple tags. A little late, but at least they had the necessary tool of the DMP system. Multiple DMPs are a necessary tool if we are going to insist that the DEC do it's job. It would be a real shame to take away that one and only measure that they need to use to control the population. I think the DMP system is one of the best things that the DEC ever came up with (and it's probably not something that originated in NYS). We may want to push for the better use of the system but certainly not ditch it entirely. The phrase "throwing out the baby with the bath water" comes to mind  .

As far as the one buck system, I wouldn't be all that upset about implementing that. I don't think it would have any significant impact, but without knowing how many people really do harvest more than one buck, I can't really say one way of the other.

Doc

[bubba]

being from as north as you can get, I do not see where everyone thinks the weather is so bad compared to downstate.  The past three winters, it has been colder and more snow in the South than here. we had one freak snow on halloween last year, then none until eason ended mid december.  As far as seasons go, 8 years ago we were so over populated, they gave dmp's to virtually everyone.  Where I am hunting, I am sure I will see as many deer as I would traveling south.  7 or 8 years ago, st lawrence county had around 5000 car deer accidents in one year. Now the pop has leveled off, so permit numbers are down.  It has nothing to do with a bad winter kill, it has to do with hunters controlling the population.  Last year I used my snowblower three times. The weather patterns are changing.  there seem to be more storms that stay south and dump there while it is no snow here.