Ole Piers Morgan making us look bad....

[Pygmy]

I doubt any of you gun control supporters were ever in a situation where you NEEDED a gun and did not have one..

Well, I have been and it is not a pleasant memory. Fortunately, I survived that incident, but I swore that if I could help it, I never would be in that situation again.

That's the main reason that I have not been in NYC since 1977, and never plan to GO there again.

[steve863]

Its no easier to kill someone with a gun than a bomb. How about poison? Yes, it would be easier to kill an individual with less collateral damage to others with a gun than a bomb, or poison, but if you are looking for mass devastation, a gun is not the most effective tool. Its not even the most readily available one.

To kill a bunch of people with a bomb or poison actually takes a bit more ingenuity than buying an AR15 with an extended magazine in many peoples opinion. Not everyone knows how to make a bomb or concoct and administer a poison, while getting a gun and ammo legally are as simple as driving to your nearest gun retailer. That's what we have been seeing of late, and that's why the anti's are all over this now. We as gun owners see guns in recreation or collection, etc. while the rest of society ONLY sees them in violent acts. I for one can see why they would feel the way they do. Trying to point out to them that guns are NOT part of the problem simply will not work anymore.

[mike rossi]

Nope, violence surely will NOT cease even if guns were totally eliminated. Never said it would. I however will NEVER be convinced that a gun doesn't make it easier for someone to actually go thru with a murder, because in my opinion it's way easier to kill someone with a gun than it is with a bomb, knife, strangulation or any other means. A gun is the implement of choice for most of the murders in this country for a reason, and the reason being they are readily available and effective leaving little actual blood on the person committing the murder.

Edited January 9, 2013 by mike rossi

[steve863]

I doubt any of you gun control supporters were ever in a situation where you NEEDED a gun and did not have one..

Well, I have been and it is not a pleasant memory. Fortunately, I survived that incident, but I swore that if I could help it, I never would be in that situation again.

That's the main reason that I have not been in NYC since 1977, and never plan to GO there again.

Actually, lots of people have lived in NYC their entire lives without incident, so you shouldn't think that your incident is something that happens to everyone on a daily basis down there.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Actually, lots of people have lived in NYC their entire lives without incident, so you shouldn't think that your incident is something that happens to everyone on a daily basis down there.

But it does happen every day down there. all to laws haven't changed that. Maybe the odds are lower now but it still does happen every day. I don't want to win that 'lottery'

Edited January 9, 2013 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Elmo]

But it does happen every day down there. all to laws haven't changed that. Maybe the odds are lower now but it still does happen every day. I don't want to win that 'lottery'

I've been held at gun point 3 times in my life and knife point once. I've also been jumped afew times and gotten into numerous fights. I also grew up in the 80's and 90's when this was really bad down here. The moment my parents saved enough to move out of the bad parts of the city, I have never had any incidence again. It's basically the same everywhere. So long as you don't go to the crack house at 2 in the morning you don't have anything to worry about.

People ask me that all the time when I'm out of town. "But isn't NYC dangerous?" My reply is always "No one in going to mug you at gun point at the Statue of Liberty. They'll do it in Brownville though but what the heck were you doing in Brownsville?"

[steve863]

But it does happen every day down there. all to laws haven't changed that. Maybe the odds are lower now but it still does happen every day. I don't want to win that 'lottery'

Sure it happens, though the crime rate in NYC is lower than many other places in the US in more recent years. Highly unlikely that anything would happen to you on the day you visit.

Man, sometimes I wonder how many shadows some of you guys have shot at over the years?? LOL I don't know how I could go on living if I were as paranoid about what MIGHT happen to me any given day. Today I may scare off that bandit with my gun, while tomorrow I could have a brain hemorrage and still end up in that same aromatic pine box. What will be, will be, no sense freaking out over stuff 24/7.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

. So long as you don't go to the crack house at 2 in the morning you don't have anything to worry about.

I didn't know that crime was only limited to crack houses. OK. Come pick up the guns since I have nothing to worry about. I feel much better with that assurance.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Sure it happens, though the crime rate in NYC is lower than many other places in the US in more recent years. Highly unlikely that anything would happen to you on the day you visit.

I agree it is better than it was, but to assert the drop is because fo the gun restricions might be a stretch to prove. There was also a huge clean up effort in crime and organized crime (not counting unions...lol)

You have to be very careful when looking at cause and effect.

I could make a case that even in the face of any gun restrictions or lack of the casue for the murder rates is the minority, specifically the African American population densities. The majority of the murder in the US are conducted by African Americans (AA's) and if you compare it based on an incident rate to their population they are really reallllly high. If you look at the cities with thei highest % of AA population and then the listing of US cities with the highest violent crimes or murder rates...guess what. There are variances in positoins but many of the citys make up the top on both lists. DOes that mean that AA are the problem and we should restrict or remove them? Of course not. I am sure that while they do conduct the majority of the murders, violent crimes and take up a higher % of prison beds, there is a much deeper issue than race.

[Elmo]

I didn't know that crime was only limited to crack houses. OK. Come pick up the guns since I have nothing to worry about. I feel much better with that assurance.

Does shootings occur in tourist zone? Of course. We had one at the Empire State building just last year. Just like there are wacko's who goes into elementary schools in rural Conneticut. But I never mentioned anything about guns, gun laws, or what not. I am simply stating that NYC is a lot safer than what most people make it out to be...nothing as to why it's safe.

[mike rossi]

Does shootings occur in tourist zone? Of course. We had one at the Empire State building just last year. Just like there are wacko's who goes into elementary schools in rural Conneticut. But I never mentioned anything about guns, gun laws, or what not. I am simply stating that NYC is a lot safer than what most people make it out to be...nothing as to why it's safe.

Elmo,

You have had guns pointed at you more often than most cops and members of the military.

[virgil]

I agree it is better than it was, but to assert the drop is because fo the gun restricions might be a stretch to prove. There was also a huge clean up effort in crime and organized crime (not counting unions...lol)

You have to be very careful when looking at cause and effect.

Culver, you're right about assuming cause and effect. But, Steve didn't imply anything as far as I can see. As I recall, the cleanup in NYC involved a general crackdown on vices of all kinds.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

If the murder rate was brought down to 1 in 300,000,000 a person should have the right to protect themselves their family and property.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I agree it is better than it was, but to assert the drop is because fo the gun restricions might be a stretch to prove. There was also a huge clean up effort in crime and organized crime (not counting unions...lol)

You have to be very careful when looking at cause and effect.

Culver, you're right about assuming cause and effect. But, Steve didn't imply anything as far as I can see. As I recall, the cleanup in NYC involved a general crackdown on vices of all kinds.

He is implyinty it at a minimum becasue he is in favor or some form of restrictions to decrease crime. And you are correct. the crack down was across the board, right down to folks sleeping in boxes.

[josephmrtn]

there is a much deeper issue than race.

I think it comes from the modern disconected family unit.... most familys nowadays hardly eat meals together... and the children never bond with there parents since they are kept away from them almost there whole lives... take a typical american for example: they are born in the hospital and whisked away into the "baby ward" instead of staying with there mom and recieving skin on skin contact and bonding together... from that day forward they are fed formula and given a pacifire when they cry (no nursing) then once they are a bit older they are dropped off at daycare and left there all day, one they are school age there normal day would look something like: get up leave for school be at school all day being taught they "evolved" from slime and its "ok" to treat other people as such... then they come home watch tv or play video games, go to bed... and during the summer vacation most of the time is spent in front of the tv of video game cause of child labor laws restricting the parents so much they can hardly tell the child to clean there room cause thats violating the childs "rights"... usually meanwhile the parents are gone most of the time anyway "making money" so that they can "keep up with the jones's"

when they turn 10 or 12 usually they get an iphone or something simalar (sometimes earlier than 10) from then on they spend most of there time on facebook, twitter, texting, ect they are not allowed to work till they are 16 so they play video games ect and then all of the sudden they are expected to go work like a man by the time they turn 20... often there is family trouble divorces ect in all this and they are very insecure young people cause of there younger years... then they get married have kids (more and more they are having kids without getting married) and the cycle starts over again......

im NOT saying this is the way ALL familys are but sadly i feel this is more and more the american family stereo type... i hope you can see the probs i can see in this picture... hopefully we can do somthing to change it

[steve863]

I agree it is better than it was, but to assert the drop is because fo the gun restricions might be a stretch to prove. There was also a huge clean up effort in crime and organized crime (not counting unions...lol)

You have to be very careful when looking at cause and effect.

I could make a case that even in the face of any gun restrictions or lack of the casue for the murder rates is the minority, specifically the African American population densities. The majority of the murder in the US are conducted by African Americans (AA's) and if you compare it based on an incident rate to their population they are really reallllly high. If you look at the cities with thei highest % of AA population and then the listing of US cities with the highest violent crimes or murder rates...guess what. There are variances in positoins but many of the citys make up the top on both lists. DOes that mean that AA are the problem and we should restrict or remove them? Of course not. I am sure that while they do conduct the majority of the murders, violent crimes and take up a higher % of prison beds, there is a much deeper issue than race.

I never asserted that gun restrictions are the major reason for the crime drop. Statistics CAN and ARE manipulated by all sides to make themselves look better. Just as it could be a stretch to say gun restrictions led to the drop in crime, I think it's also a stretch for the other side to say that the many guns out there have absolutely NO effect on high murder rates. I simply think people have to see everything for what it is and not pretend that somethings, such as guns have nothing to do with crime rates.

I can't disagree with what you said in your second paragraph because it is the truth, but I surely couldn't begin to guess what solutions are possible there.

[Elmo]

josephmrtn - you are wise beyond your years. I commend you and your parents.

[josephmrtn]

Thank you, they have done there best to bring me up right and teach me what they believe is right...

the rest is my personal opinion LOL

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I never asserted that gun restrictions are the major reason for the crime drop. Statistics CAN and ARE manipulated by all sides to make themselves look better. Just as it could be a stretch to say gun restrictions led to the drop in crime, I think it's also a stretch for the other side to say that the many guns out there have absolutely NO effect on high murder rates. I simply think people have to see everything for what it is and not pretend that somethings, such as guns have nothing to do with crime rates.

I can't disagree with what you said in your second paragraph because it is the truth, but I surely couldn't begin to guess what solutions are possible there.

Steve. I agree with most of you post and posts, However we will just have to agree to disagree. I will never believe that infringing on a freedom of the general population with the hope of saving a life is an acceptable swap.I would remain consistent no matter the right in the discussion.

[virgil]

I will never believe that infringing on a freedom of the general population with the hope of saving a life is an acceptable swap.I would remain consistent no matter the right in the discussion.

What about the right to yell 'fire' in a movie theatre? Just kidding, sort of.

[steve863]

No big deal if we don't agree. I just think that the freedom of gun ownership is not as simple as many pro-gun people make it out to be. If the 2nd amendment were as absolute as some think, wouldn't any or ALL gun laws been ruled unconstitutional over the years?? They haven't and never will be quite honestly. In my mind what was said about weapons 240 years ago simply doesn't apply in the same way today when weaponry is way more sophisticated. If "the people" should be allowed the same fire power as the gov't, then I guess it would be OK for "the people" to own nukes today? Maybe some 2nd amendment proponents want that too, but I really don't think you will get the rest of society on the same page with that. Times change and thought processes change, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. It did with slavery, racial issues, prohibition, and many other things too. Yet we are still the same nation and a change in any of these ideologies hasn't brought us down for good yet, neither will this gun issue in my opinion.

[First-light]

No big deal if we don't agree. I just think that the freedom of gun ownership is not as simple as many pro-gun people make it out to be. If the 2nd amendment were as absolute as some think, wouldn't any or ALL gun laws been ruled unconstitutional over the years?? They haven't and never will be quite honestly. In my mind what was said about weapons 240 years ago simply doesn't apply in the same way today when weaponry is way more sophisticated. If "the people" should be allowed the same fire power as the gov't, then I guess it would be OK for "the people" to own nukes today? Maybe some 2nd amendment proponents want that too, but I really don't think you will get the rest of society on the same page with that. Times change and thought processes change, sometimes for the better, sometimes not. It did with slavery, racial issues, prohibition, and many other things too. Yet we are still the same nation and a change in any of these ideologies hasn't brought us down for good yet, neither will this gun issue in my opinion.

Nicely put.

[WNYBuckHunter]

To kill a bunch of people with a bomb or poison actually takes a bit more ingenuity than buying an AR15 with an extended magazine in many peoples opinion. Not everyone knows how to make a bomb or concoct and administer a poison, while getting a gun and ammo legally are as simple as driving to your nearest gun retailer. That's what we have been seeing of late, and that's why the anti's are all over this now. We as gun owners see guns in recreation or collection, etc. while the rest of society ONLY sees them in violent acts. I for one can see why they would feel the way they do. Trying to point out to them that guns are NOT part of the problem simply will not work anymore.

Theres this thing called the internet, and all of the directions on how to poison people or make a bomb are on there. Its not rocket science, and the chemicals to do so are much more readily available than a gun.

You do realize that violent crime in this country has been steadily decreasing for quite some time right? Including gun related deaths. Overall crime rates are the lowest theyve been since 1970. The press and government barking dogs may say different, but the stats speak for themselves. Gun bans do NOTHING. Crime rates have not gone up since the sunset of the AWB.

Im still confused as to where you get the inkling that there is a high murder rate. The last time it was as low as it is now is 1961. Its half that of what it was for much of the 80s and 90s.

[steve863]

Theres this thing called the internet, and all of the directions on how to poison people or make a bomb are on there. Its not rocket science, and the chemicals to do so are much more readily available than a gun.

You do realize that violent crime in this country has been steadily decreasing for quite some time right? Including gun related deaths. Overall crime rates are the lowest theyve been since 1970. The press and government barking dogs may say different, but the stats speak for themselves. Gun bans do NOTHING. Crime rates have not gone up since the sunset of the AWB.

Im still confused as to where you get the inkling that there is a high murder rate. The last time it was as low as it is now is 1961. Its half that of what it was for much of the 80s and 90s.

Very true, the crime rate is lower. I would say this is due mostly to better economic opportunities for some that didn't have the same opportunities back then. Even with lower crime rates, I don't think society finds the idea that someone could easily obtain a rifle or pistol that can easily have a high capacity magazine attached to it acceptable. I sure know that when I started getting into hunting and shooting in the late 70's, such equipment was surely not so readily available. Today, it's almost like a game where people are arming themselves to the teeth with this stuff for some sort of armegedon. Guns used to be advertised as equipment to hunt or target shoot with. Today you look at a hunting or gun magazine and it looks like you are reading "Soldier of Fortune" magazine. Now that we have had people actually commiting crimes with this equipment, we have ALL become suspect thanks to those who wanted the gun industry to go down such a road.

[Doc]

Very true, the crime rate is lower. I would say this is due mostly to better economic opportunities for some that didn't have the same opportunities back then. Even with lower crime rates, I don't think society finds the idea that someone could easily obtain a rifle or pistol that can easily have a high capacity magazine attached to it acceptable. I sure know that when I started getting into hunting and shooting in the late 70's, such equipment was surely not so readily available. Today, it's almost like a game where people are arming themselves to the teeth with this stuff for some sort of armegedon. Guns used to be advertised as equipment to hunt or target shoot with. Today you look at a hunting or gun magazine and it looks like you are reading "Soldier of Fortune" magazine. Now that we have had people actually commiting crimes with this equipment, we have ALL become suspect thanks to those who wanted the gun industry to go down such a road.

Lol .... Oh my .... the drama. Soldier of fortune magazines and armagedon???? These are all emotional terms that seem to once again related to the physical appearance of the modern semi-auto sporting rifle. I wonder what would have happened if the military had not adopted this "black" look for their weaponry. Would the antis then be looking at our other semi auto hunting firearms for confiscation. I have to admit that the design of today's rifles do "look" rather menacing because they have modeled the appearance after military rifles. They do make an inviting target for those that are simply looking for something to confiscate. I keep wondering what the next target for confiscation will be after these "evil-looking" guns are banned. Perhaps I will make it through what's left of my lifetime before they work there way down to my bolt action and pump firearms ....lol.