Who wants Yearling Buck Protection with ARs in their area?

[JR020]

yes 7F onondaga county

[phade]

i hope that wasn't directed at me because you cant quote me as saying that in this thread. In the crossbows threads however...

i refuse to believe that someone who has hunted their whole life sees a trophy in a spike horn. My grandfather of 82 with cancer is still in the woods and will shoot that spike and he has every right too. But it doesn't go on his wall with the other 7. But again, if you didn't read my whole post, I am accepting of different standards for youth, elderly and handicapped. and in addition, statistically in time chances are that 1.5 is now a 2.5 or 3.5 year old instead.

Refuse? See this pic? That doe, shot this year in ohio, is his first deer in 40 seasons. Thats right. 40. Refuse all you want, but if he shoots a spike, its probably going over the fireplace in the living room. Thats the thing, trophies are in the eye of the beholder.

I know all about ar. Ive published articles on it. Heck, people who have replied on this thread have been sourced in the article. Writing that piece forced me to really research it. Bottom line, after all that research, i never came to the conclusion that it was worth it to limit a hunter more via law/regulation. If you want to do that on private, fine. Education is the answer, and nys dec shows that its working.

[JFB]

Not trying to be a wise guy, but what education is NYC DEC doing that "shows that it's working"?

Also, I'm not doubting you wrote an article but where can I get a copy and who published it? It may be a good read.

[phade]

Ny game and fish. I forget the issue number off hand, but im sure you can dig it up. I also covered the group in the finger lakes that were trying to push the ar pilot for another publication. I spoke with mickey hellickson (sp) and others about it.

Read the nys dec report on it. Its a long pdf.

Edited January 15, 2013 by phade

[Hunting3m]

Definetly an antler restriction for 3m. I can see what our area can produce if so many people arent shooting yearlings. I passed up atleast 4, 1-2 year old bucks, some nice ones too, hoping they grow up next year. I still havent shot my first buck.

[reeltime]

reeltime,

I appreciate your experience with ARs in PA, and I cannot speak from your viewpoint. But you mention the good ol' days and property that wasn't posted etc. I'm sorry but that has absolutely nothing to do with ARs in your state. That is common across the country and is the result of private land disappearing, more hunters, less farms and lawyers.

I will tell you it has everything to do with the AR/HR program from people wanting the resident deer to themselves and or trying to protect the deer that they have currently ( especially the doe) i can tell you first hand that around our farm 1600 acres has been posted in the last 4 years because they are trying to protect what deer are left! and sometimes that does not even work.

Secondly, your bucks per square mile is 3rd in the northeast and your total buck take has increased from 2008. In addition the 5th highest take of antlerless deer in the country. And if it's really all just about meat... isn't that all that matters?

if its a pgc statistic of bucks per sq. mile you can probably safely bet that the number is way off! as is the harvest numbers. they boast numbers relative to the 80's 90's numbers and its not even close in deer population nor hunter numbers. I was at the farm the first saturday when antlerless season came in this year, I heard very little shooting for it being the first day of "doe" I can remember years past it sounded like a war down there. not any more there are neither the deer nor the hunters. numbers sell licenses, when people look to hunt out of state they look at harvest rates. states with the highest published success rates sell the most non resident licenses. maine and new hampshire has some monster bucks while they do sell non resident licenses no where near what pa sells because maine & NH can post fairly accurate kill numbers because deer have to be taken to a check station ( at least they did when I hunted there)

Finally, I do not see a lot of dissension among hunters on this topic. We may stand on separate sides of the fence and a few people on each side take it to far but I think this is more a matter of philosophy and hunting style that some people disagree on. I do not see this as something the anti's cheer for as many QDM states have seen license sales increase since 2008. I see that may not be the case in PA but with any of these statements or statistics you have to realize there are many variables in play. I doubt it was any one thing that caused license sales to drop in PA. I was blown away at pictures of some of the deer I saw shot there this year on a coworkers phone.

take a gander at the huntingpa.com site, you think this issue isn't dividing hunters in Pa? take a look at what people are saying, while yes you have to weed out the "over the edge" guys on both sides of the equation its pretty well divided on the subject. yes there are some big bucks being killed, probably a few more than before, but there are a whole lot less antlered bucks being killed now per year than 20 years ago. we see and hear about more of them also because today its instant information and technology allows more people to show their harvest.

20 years ago you heard about big bucks being killed by word of mouth or an actual picture. today 1 minute after someone kills a buck you can see it via text message on your phone in the woods, that didn't happen 20 years ago.

Like I said yes we kill some nice bucks there in Pa. but we kill just as nice if not nicer bucks here without the AR and more importantly the HR.

To me I don't care if they do it. I personally think it would drop the hunter numbers, but would it affect me personally? nope. I made a personal choice years ago to stop shooting does and less than 4 to a side here and for the most part don't even gun hunt here anymore, if I choose to carry a gun its the flintlock I built other than that I carry the bow all season.

I love the "if you don't like it move" argument. We should all do that in NY now that they're infringing on our second amendment rights. Why should we ever stand up for what we believe in or lobby for what we feel will benefit our sport?

if you don't like it move, or if theres no deer in your area move statements about make me want to puke! not everyone has the means to drive great distances to hunt, and its far tougher for an outsider to gain permission to hunt than a local person. Some people choose to provide for their family instead of dumping hundreds of dollars worth of gas in their car or truck to drive 80 miles every trip to go find deer or open land to hunt.

No doubt about it this gun control issue is going to be very ugly here in NY.....no, NATIONWIDE I am afraid.

Its not going to be a one time battle, more than ever people need to join the NRA, they as an organized group fight daily to protect our rights. if it came down to being a member of buckmasters, qdma, nwtf, or the NRA people better choose the NRA, They (us) are going to need every penny available to try and subdue this anti gun movement. To be honest I don't even know if its a winnable battle for us. I think they are just going to pick it apart piece by piece till they get their way or they make it such a miserable ordeal to own a gun that people will just give them up.

[reeltime]

I just think deer hunters as a group are just too different to make everyone happy. I am simple to please as I mind my own business and hunt the way I like. I don't worry about what others shoot. I don't have a fit if someone comes walking through my hunting area because I don't own the land. All I need is a property to hunt, and I will consistantly shoot mature bucks if they are in the area. Are they all wall hangers? Not by a long shot. But, they have been through a few hunting seasons, and are usually tougher to get close to.

I hear all the time that when I let the young bucks walk someone else will get them. So what. It is my choice, and how I enjoy my deer hunting. Funny how on this site you have guys that can show you the same bucks on trail cams year to year, so they don't all get shot.

On the other side of the coin, I have friends that have very limited vacation time, or none left at all. They have just as much fun shooting the first buck they see. They are not striving to shoot the biggest buck. They are looking to fill their tag in the short time they have to get venison in the freezer. I congratulate them and gladly help them eat some fresh back straps.

My overall opinion is live and let live. There are tons of deer in this state, and any deer that is legally taken, is making good use of nature's bounty. I would like it to be one buck only no matter how it is harvested. I hunt 4f and 7m and some years I have to settle for a couple does. I have been fortunate to harvest a nice buck most years as I have improved as a hunter, but it is good hunting land and a pretty long walk to get to my spots which helps a lot.

amen! as long as the herd balance to habitat is good to each their own.

[Five Seasons]

reeltime,

You are basing your views on your town and farm where you live. I'm basing mine on facts published by your state. http://www.qdma.com/uploads/pdf/WR2012.pdf You can debate the legitimacy of those stats but that's all we have to go by. If people are not reporting than that's an issue your state has, NYS always factors in the percentage of unreported/poached game into their yearly harvest estimates for this very reason. But in fact, despite your opinion and perception in your town, as a state your buck harvest (any size) has increased since 2008.

There are no statewide ARs in NYS, yet almost everything is posted, and when I was a kid almost nothing was. So is that because people are trying to keep the deer for themselves? In some cases... yes! But it's not the result of ARs. People take hunting very seriously. If they're fortunate enough to own land that they worked hard to purchase then they are within their right to prevent others who have done nothing to earn it from hunting on it.

My best friend growing up lived across the street on a 400 acre fruit farm. We used to hunt it until his father's farm went bankrupt. The land was bought by a hunter who posted the hell out of it. Stopped the snowmobile club from using it and would no longer let my family even cross country ski on the property. He was within his right to do so. Another field was sold by a farmer to a developer and now has 6 houses on it. It’s not just hunters either, a snowmobile club purchased some land as well so they still had a place to ride and don’t allow hunters on the land. We can debate the other facts and issues with ARs all we want but I won’t buy this one as I'm sure most members on this sight can post similar stories in regards to posted property, in fact I see these threads pop up every other week.

[Doewhacker]

" I'm basing mine on facts published by your state"

QDMA is not state anything.

[Five Seasons]

" I'm basing mine on facts published by your state"

QDMA is not state anything.

and reading is > you.

where do you think they get their stats from? they even tell you this in their report. All they did was organize it.

[Doewhacker]

and reading is > you.

where do you think they get their stats from? they even tell you this in their report. All they did was organize it.

Listen don't post a link to a QDMA site and say it is from a state, pretty simple.

[Five Seasons]

Listen don't post a link to a QDMA site and say it is from a state, pretty simple.

it doesn't matter who publishes it. it's data gathered from the state's public website and compiled. It's not even hard to read. It's a chart with kills per year over a 3 year period. Would it be better if I went and took screen shots from the PA website?

[Doewhacker]

Actually it does matter where you post links to and refference as "from the state" when it in fact is not from the state. QDMA is a orginization that makes money off of people like you.

The good thing is you are too ignorant to realize when you are wrong as you have proven many many times already here.

[Five Seasons]

Actually it does matter where you post links to and refference as "from the state" when it in fact is not from the state. QDMA is a orginization that makes money off of people like you.

The good thing is you are too ignorant to realize when you are wrong as you have proven many many times already here.

QDMA has not taken a cent of my money.

But I'll humor you,

Does this make you feel better? shows an increase in take since 2007 in both antlered and overall deer take.

http://www.portal.st...D=625882&mode=2

more interesting reading, although it appears you're not good at that...

www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/850487/2009-2018_pgc_deer_mgmt_plan_-_final_version_pdf

but I appreciate you making me go look for that, because it just shows that in the 1970's when everything was great fro reeltime, it wasn't as great as it appeared. Did less people report... sure, but by that much?

Edited January 15, 2013 by Belo

[Doewhacker]

"more interesting reading, although it appears you're not good at that..".

Sounds like you want to be banned with the constant insults, you ever going to learn your lesson?

[Single_shot]

QDMA has not taken a cent of my money.

But I'll humor you,

Does this make you feel better? shows an increase in take since 2007 in both antlered and overall deer take.

http://www.portal.st...D=625882&mode=2

more interesting reading, although it appears you're not good at that...

www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/850487/2009-2018_pgc_deer_mgmt_plan_-_final_version_pdf

but I appreciate you making me go look for that, because it just shows that in the 1970's when everything was great fro reeltime, it wasn't as great as it appeared. Did less people report... sure, but by that much?

It was great in the 70's....deer all over the place.The difference not being pointed out here by Doewacker is that we did NOT have 4 months to shoot deer like now ( I know,exagerated,meant to be) no inline for example etc. that's my point. The season is too long,too many tags and less property to hunt,and less for deer to eat.I don't care what they post in the numbers online(the deer /sq mi is BS..I can show you deep woods areas where you may not see a deer for 2 weeks hunting every day.That same land once had a bountiful selection of deer. What does AR do for that area?

Edited January 15, 2013 by Single_shot

[Five Seasons]

so if i understand you and doe,

you're still debating facts and now doe is upset he's wrong so he's telling daddy? A 4 month season was created largely as the result of overpopulation. Did you read the management plan i posted (second link in post above)? Did you see the stats on deer in your state?

What i gather is that I cannot win. I'm not even debating with my personal opinion. I'm reporting facts for discussion and the only response I get is... well when I go into the woods I dont see any deer, so Belo is wrong. PA is over 46k square miles and several of you are bashing your state's laws on personal experience. When a tree falls and blocks the path of a deer run; what do the deer do? They adapt and create a new run. Perhaps these areas you're in have suffered from urban sprawl, over-hunting, poaching, lack of food source from decreased farming, disease etc. The deer may have just moved. I see this every other year when they dont plan the corn near us. If you wanted to claim your WMU is in need of change, then that's fine. I'll buy that. Write the state, attend their public comment meetings and maybe they'll listen.

[Doewhacker]

"now doe is upset he's wrong so he's telling daddy?"

I really don't know why you keep tryng to make a run at me, I just pointed out that you were wrong. Move on before you get tossed.

[mike rossi]

The thing hunters in PA and NY SHOULD be focused on is Page 28 of Belo's link. That is a right - now, time sensitive issue.

[Five Seasons]

"now doe is upset he's wrong so he's telling daddy?"

I really don't know why you keep tryng to make a run at me, I just pointed out that you were wrong. Move on before you get tossed.

because I'm not wrong. What dont you understand? Show me what I said was wrong. This is why I questioned your reading abilities. Now you're threatening to "toss me"?

[Doewhacker]

because I'm not wrong. What dont you understand? Show me what I said was wrong. This is why I questioned your reading abilities. Now you're threatening to "toss me"?

Already did that, you said QDMA and "got it from your state" and I pointed out that QDMA has no ties with any state and is a business.

As far as "threatening to toss" you, I don't have that power. I just know your childish ways and how you resort to insults like you already have done here.

[Five Seasons]

and then i replied with PA's state website statistics which are exactly of that reported by QDMA, which backed my case.

[reeltime]

QDMA has not taken a cent of my money.

But I'll humor you,

Does this make you feel better? shows an increase in take since 2007 in both antlered and overall deer take.

http://www.portal.st...D=625882&mode=2

more interesting reading, although it appears you're not good at that...

www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/document/850487/2009-2018_pgc_deer_mgmt_plan_-_final_version_pdf

but I appreciate you making me go look for that, because it just shows that in the 1970's when everything was great fro reeltime, it wasn't as great as it appeared. Did less people report... sure, but by that much?

when everything was great for me??? when did I ever say that? I stated personal factual information from personal experience because I was living there full time up until 1986. seasons, tags, equipment has evolved immensely since I started hunting making it easier to scout, and be more comfortable while hunting thus people spend more time on stand.

here is a link to the PGC website harvest data.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=625882&mode=2

some points to "ponder"

in 1986 the numbers went from actual reporting to a "calculated" harvest from 85 to 86's calculated harvest the numbers doubled.......

antlered havest has not gone up every year, 2007 harvest for bucks was actually 26000 fewer than in 2006.

2009 harvest was 14080 fewer than in 2008..

the figure that stands out the most in their numbers is present year of 2011 havest is 75,707 fewer bucks killed than in 2001. and overall deer harvest numbers comparing 2011 to 2001 149,814 FEWER deer killed in 2011 than '01.

prior to I believe somewhere around 1990 PA was a one and done state for deer. thats ALL you could shoot was 1 deer. then they started the antlerless tag program where your back tag was the buck tag and antlerless tags were with the antlerless license.

the seasons for deer were NOWHERE near those of today. when I started in 77 it was archery for 4 weeks ( no sundays) then the monday after thanksgiving for antlered deer only that ran for 2 weeks, then 1 YES 1 day for antlerless deer. then the day after Christmas for I think 2 weeks was flintlock with patched round ball only and archery.

Then they started the bonus tags, extended archery season to 6/7 weeks (into the first 2 weeks of novembers rut) then gave us 3 days for antlerless season immediatly after "buck" season.

now to the present configuration,

6/7 weeks of archery and crossbow ( hence the increase in archery stamps)

a 1 week long antlerless season with any kind of muzzleloader in mid october.

during the october muzzleloader season the thursday,friday,saturday of that week is antlerless season for jr&sr hunters with rifle.

the monday following thanksgiving there is 5 days of antlered only season with gun.

the "first" saturday of gun begins 7 days of antlerless with gun.

then after Christmas its 2 weeks of flintlock and archery.

but there are some special regulation areas that have antlerless season from mid sept through almost the end of jan.

qdma will never work on a statewide basis! there are just too many variables from hunting pressure to habitat to available hunting land. its pretty tough doing it on 1000 acres with free ranging whitetails unless you have tons of money to spend on habitat and security.

[nyantler]

I know a large number of hunters that are against yearling buck protection here in NY... and more that are for it, but have too ichy a trigger finger and have admitted that without an antler restriction they will have a hard time passing on a small buck on their own.. especially as the season gets near the end... many, if not all, of those hunters have spent 1000's of dollars seaking out states that have those restrictions... in hopes of taking that "buck of a lifetime" that they can't seem to find in NY... and their argument against restrictions here is that they pay a lot for a license and should be able to take the deer of their choice... What???

[reeltime]

joe,, I'd bet that any non resident license would cost more than the $100.00 ny resident license..... so your going into unfamiliar territory, paying a higher license cost, room and board cost,,,, all for the hopes of killing a once in a lifetime deer just because of AR when there are just as many if not more mature bucks here?

some people complain just to hear themselves complain. whats even sadder is hearing guys giving reasons to try and justify killing a young buck. I always say whats with the excuses? you had YOUR buck tag not someone elses right? you were satisfied with that animal right? you killed it legally right? so whats the problem???? Who am I to tell you what you can shoot? you paid the same amount for your license as I did, if your happy with it then I am happy for you.

lots of people today have to work 6 days a week to make ends meet, both husband and wife have to work, one works one shift one works another so they can save on babysitting expenses.... the bottom line is some peoples lives don't revolve around hunting season and they only get a few days off to hunt and to limit those people to "bigger bucks" probably drastically reduces their chances to put some venison in the freezer. If they are happy with what they shot then be happy for them!

for those of us that want to personally hold out for a more mature buck we can still do that without a forced AR across the board.

the way things are going in this country and state antler restrictions are the least of our problems right now!