Let's throw some gas on the fire - MI Report

[phade]

Interesting report on xbows.

The fact that really jumps out to me is the difference in success rates for xbow vs vertical bow hunters. 35-40% vs. 30-35%, with xbows being reliably more successful (5% is huge IMO). The other is that the "youth" angle doesn't fly - Xbow has a lower recruitment rate according to this report - meaning that xbow doesn't recruit the younger hunters.

What's that say? Does that mean xbows are easier? More efficient?

Other randoms points:

81% of the hunters responding either agreed or strongly agreed that crossbows are easier to use than other types of bows.

83% of respondents agree or strongly agree that it takes less time to become proficient with a crossbow than with other types of bows.

49% of the replies indicated that they agree or strongly agree that they could not hunt deer during the archery season without the crossbow.

http://www.upwhiteta... ... _01_25.pdf

Edited February 11, 2013 by phade

[NYBuckHunter27]

Speed and accuracy of the crossbow makes them more successful and the obvious fact that you can mount a scope on it, a crossbow can tolerate wayy more human error than a regular bow. Crossbows the way they are built nowadays are more and more like holding your favorite gun so of course people are going to be more comfortable with them which will increase accuracy and success rate. As far as recruiting kids i'm actually surprised especially since i would think that kids could be more successful with a crossbow at a earlier age simply because they don't have to actually draw the weight back like on a vertical bow.

49% of the replies indicated that they agree or strongly agree that they could not hunt deer during the archery season without the crossbow....who is going to verify that these people aren't physically able to hunt with a regular bow and don't just want the advantages of the crossbow? i'm assuming this percentage is supposed to be people with disablilities or previous injuries. And if that's the case that you cant physically hunt with a vertical bow and you really love hunting you'll be able to holdout till gun season when you don't need to draw back any sort of weight.

[phade]

49% of the replies indicated that they agree or strongly agree that they could not hunt deer during the archery season without the crossbow....who is going to verify that these people aren't physically able to hunt with a regular bow and don't just want the advantages of the crossbow? i'm assuming this percentage is supposed to be people with disablilities or previous injuries. And if that's the case that you cant physically hunt with a vertical bow and you really love hunting you'll be able to holdout till gun season when you don't need to draw back any sort of weight.

I think this number more reflects gun hunters stepping into the archery season, honestly. I believe MI had limited inclusion to a degree before that (I may be wrong, but I believe they had a disability allowance).

[sampotter]

Good info Phade- exactly what I've been saying all along. The only able-bodied hunters in NY that want crossbows for archery season in NY are the gun hunters that don't want earn the right to bowhunt by putting in the time.

[SteveB]

My thoughts in red.

Interesting report on xbows.

Other randoms points:

81% of the hunters responding either agreed or strongly agreed that crossbows are easier to use than other types of bows.

What % would agree compounds are easier to use than recurves/longbows.

83% of respondents agree or strongly agree that it takes less time to become proficient with a crossbow than with other types of bows.

What % would agree it takes far less time to become and remain proficient with a compound vs recurve/longbows.

49% of the replies indicated that they agree or strongly agree that they could not hunt deer during the archery season without the crossbow.

What % would admit to most likely giving up the archery season if not allowed to use a compound.

http://www.upwhiteta... ... _01_25.pdf

Edited February 11, 2013 by SteveB

[sits in trees]

looks like we are getting into disecting again, and what does it all really mean or prove,, bah humbug!

[erussell]

Doesnt matter what weapon you use, getting the deer in front of you is the hard part.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Where have we heard this before? Instead of someone taking something away, someone is going to give someone something and we still get complaints!

[phade]

This is a formal agency study/survey on xbow impact, and nothing to do with compounds, sling shots, javelins, or otherwise. It is what it is.

The lack of youth use to me was most concerning. Seems like that is one of the major flagship benefits promised; based on this study, that's not true imo.

Interesting stuff though, that's for sure.

Edited February 13, 2013 by phade

[G-Man]

Do you think that the 5% more success is beacuse they are more consistant because you and i both know 90% of bow hunters do not practice like they should, so it results in missed and wounded deer? vs xbow that once sighted in is on and requires less practice? which is better for the game? a clean harvest or not? I really doesn't matter for me if its a seperate season i'll get one if not i'll stick with bow.

[G-Man]

Good points steveb! i'd rather see more hunters even if it means sharing part of my season with them. (why do you think they extended bow 2 weeks? maybe 2 weeks xbow early then bow only or vise versa.. always an angle when changing seasons)

[mike rossi]

never mind.

Edited February 13, 2013 by mike rossi

[phade]

Do you think that the 5% more success is beacuse they are more consistant because you and i both know 90% of bow hunters do not practice like they should, so it results in missed and wounded deer? vs xbow that once sighted in is on and requires less practice? which is better for the game? a clean harvest or not? I really doesn't matter for me if its a seperate season i'll get one if not i'll stick with bow.

This is just conjecture on my part, but i think part of it is that gun hunters who transition to using an xbow have a closer apples to apples transition (ie, shooting like a gun). Also, for those who bow hunted before and then went to xbow, I have to assume the experience level was higher on average and with an arguably more proficient weapon, the success rate was more.

I think the longevity of that advantage is going to be something to watch. If 10 years from now the % is still higher, then it may very well be due to the more efficient vs. practice ratio of the xbow.

I wonder if they would have tracked or surveyed the average shot distance between the vertical bows and the xbow. I guess the xbow would be slightly further on average.

[G-Man]

Plus what is the ratio of gun hunters taking up crossbow success vs former vertical bow shooter using crossbow success. I know a few gun hunters who took up archery to get those good bucks early..but have yet to get a deer, let alone a few that have given it up completely and went back to gun. I expect the same thing with those taking up crossbow. You still need to learn how to get close to get em bow or crossbow.

[phade]

Plus what is the ratio of gun hunters taking up crossbow success vs former vertical bow shooter using crossbow success. I know a few gun hunters who took up archery to get those good bucks early..but have yet to get a deer, let alone a few that have given it up completely and went back to gun. I expect the same thing with those taking up crossbow. You still need to learn how to get close to get em bow or crossbow.

The chart seems to show that people in their late 30's and up picked up the xbow in a higher volume, with less of a younger crowd. I have to assume that these are not first time hunters. Having experienced hunters of any sort to me would likely result in the group skewing towards higher success via that experience. Sure some are better than others, but compared to the regular archers group, where the use was more slanted on youth (ie inexperience) side comparatively, the xbow group as it is shown has more years of hunting under the belt (woodsmanship, etc.).

Sort of like comparing freshman and a senior on the football team. Sure, the freshman may be good, but on average, the senior-laden teams are most often slightly better.

[G-Man]

So basically the statistics that show a better success rate with crossbow are useless with out knowing experience or not before they were used... another way to manipulate numbers one way or another. .... guess it just comes down to this 99% of the deer are taken by 10% of the hunters will just be fine no matter what the weapon type used......

[Doc]

Do you think that the 5% more success is beacuse they are more consistant because you and i both know 90% of bow hunters do not practice like they should, so it results in missed and wounded deer? vs xbow that once sighted in is on and requires less practice? which is better for the game? a clean harvest or not? I really doesn't matter for me if its a seperate season i'll get one if not i'll stick with bow.

So is the argument that compounds, recurves and longbows are inadequate deer hunting weapons and should be removed from the list of deer harvesting weapons because some bowhunters do not practice adequately? Let's take this line of argument to it's final conclusion which would be bow hunting season should be that eliminated in favor of the more efficient gun season. I have tried to stay out of this argument because it is basically rehashing the same points over and over, but this statement really looks like a frontal attack on bowhunting. If we want to favor only those weapons that are easy to use and require little or no practice, then basically that is a recommendation to eliminate all bows in favor of guns and crossbows. Actually, I have heard that argument put forth by many gun hunters, and left unchallenged is a notion that could eventually get some traction.

[phade]

So is the argument that compounds, recurves and longbows are inadequate deer hunting weapons and should be removed from the list of deer harvesting weapons because some bowhunters do not practice adequately? Let's take this line of argument to it's final conclusion which would be bow hunting season should be that eliminated in favor of the more efficient gun season. I have tried to stay out of this argument because it is basically rehashing the same points over and over, but this statement really looks like a frontal attack on bowhunting. If we want to favor only those weapons that are easy to use and require little or no practice, then basically that is a recommendation to eliminate all bows in favor of guns and crossbows. Actually, I have heard that argument put forth by many gun hunters, and left unchallenged is a notion that could eventually get some traction.

Why not dynamite or hand grenades?

There aer likely multiple inputs for the numbers, but in the end, it seems pretty clear that youths are not using the xbow in the fashion proponents suggest. It does seem to suggest that older hunters opt for the xbow. Maybe an age slot/disability allowance is ideal as a compromise at this point given the curernt hunting community temperature here in NY. Who knows how it will play out.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The chart seems to show that people in their late 30's and up picked up the xbow in a higher volume, with less of a younger crowd..

In their 30's? If I think way way back to when I was in my 30's...LOL. I was a new Father at 30. I had bought my first house at 30. maybe the draw in that age group really is the fact that less practice is needed to become proficient. I know I was tied up in growing my career and there were 4 years in my 30's that becasue of travel for work and home life I was unable to practice with my bow to a level that I felt the confidence that I needed. I did not buy a bow license those years and only gun hunted. If I had access to a crossbow and it was legal I may have still gotten the license and got a few days in . If that age group really does have a draw to the cross bow, I can see what it may actually be.

[erussell]

Just talked to a guy last night that was a hard core bowhunter and bought a crossbow. Says he aint ever goin back to the compound. He filled all 5 of his tags this yr in NY with the crossbow and even a few in NJ on a friends apple farm. Says its more fun than pickin yer nose at a stop light.

Edited February 15, 2013 by erussell

[G-Man]

Doc, no not an attack on bow hunting, but reasoning why the statistics show what they do. Bows are very efficient in the hands of those that practice most guys at me camp if they loose an arrow at a deer it is dead deer. Our bow success rate at camp is 80% with the 20 % never having loosed an arrow. Our gun success is 95% or better. 5% miss / wounding loss. Way above state averages. Just trying to see why 5% more with crossbow. Obvious would be once set up its on no real practice required, eliminating misses due to improper form. Or maybe its not having to draw it. Just looking for the obvious.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Good info Phade- exactly what I've been saying all along. The only able-bodied hunters in NY that want crossbows for archery season in NY are the gun hunters that don't want earn the right to bowhunt by putting in the time.

You are 100% wrong.

Look, nobody is saying crossbows arent a bit easier than vertical bows, of course they are. To say they are vastly superior, and have no disadvantages against a vertical bow is just plain incorrect. The anti-crossbow crowd only points out the advantages to crossbows, they never tell both sides of it.

[sampotter]

Wnybuckhunter-

Do you currently bowhunt?

[SteveB]

You are 100% wrong.

Look, nobody is saying crossbows arent a bit easier than vertical bows, of course they are. To say they are vastly superior, and have no disadvantages against a vertical bow is just plain incorrect. The anti-crossbow crowd only points out the advantages to crossbows, they never tell both sides of it.

Great post dead on - especially the parts I highlighted.

Probably 1/3 of the bowhunters (all compounders) that come in my friends shop in CNY express willingness to possibly try crossbows when they

are approved for the bow season. The % goes even higher among those that you only see the 2 or 3 weeks before bow season starts.

And before I am asked, I currently bow hunt - last 2 years recurve exclusively.

[sampotter]

Really? What are the disadvantages that a cross bow has that a vertical bow doesn't. That you have to use your feet to cock it? That they are more expensive to buy? My gripe is that a fair percentage of gun-goons that usually aren't in the woods until the weekend before the gun opener to make some last minute hammer and chainsaw adjustments to their box blinds will suddenly take up "bow" hunting if they are allowed to use a crossbow, thereby polluting the woods and causing deer to shut down. There's no denying that there are slob hunters that give hunting a bad name. Most hunt with a gun because they are too lazy to put in the time with a bow. I'd prefer they didn't hunt at all but thats not an option.