Let's throw some gas on the fire - MI Report

[WNYBuckHunter]

BTW, the QDMA numbers are inflated by things that they count in there like "hunters that dont hunt every year", etc.

[phade]

The numbers were declining before that. You want me to believe that enough people bought lifetime licenses to reverse that trend? They have continued to decline in the 2 years after the 2009 push.

 

Average lifetime purchases were about 2-5k per year.

 

In that single year alone...more than 106k were sold. That is more than 20x the annual average. So, yes. I do expect you to believe that.

[fasteddie]

I bought the Lifetime Sportsman License when I was able to get it for a whopping cost of $50 . I no longer have to pay for the Archery or Muzzleloader tags . Thanks everyone !

[WNYBuckHunter]

Average lifetime purchases were about 2-5k per year.

 

In that single year alone...more than 106k were sold. That is more than 20x the annual average. So, yes. I do expect you to believe that.

 

Source?

[phade]

Source?

Read your own linked sources man...lol...it's on the link you just provided. Darn near 21 years worth of lifetimes were bought in a single year.

 

 

Lifetime License Sales License Year Quantity Sold Gross Sales Notes 2002/2003 4,355 $1,309,644   2003/2004 3,793 $1,245,545   2004/2005 3,892 $1,203,710   2005/2006 4,561 $1,372,550   2006/2007 5,270 $1,509,150   2007/2008 5,958 $1,662,860   2008/2009 106,915 $23,783,030   2009/2010 5,362 $2,189,234   2010/2011 2,922 $1,258,170 YTD 08/04/2011

Edited March 27, 2013 by phade

[fasteddie]

Between 2002 and 2011 143,028 lifetime licenses have been sold .

Almost 107,000 in the 2008-2009 season .

 

The source ? ------ NYSDEC

 

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html

[WNYBuckHunter]

Whoops, missed that section.

 

In any case it still doesnt make up for the declining numbers of hunting licenses before and after the balloon. It makes up for the sudden dip the next year, but what about after that?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Hunting license sales

 

2002/2003 981,532   decline

2003/2004 951,158    decline

2004/2005 936,848     decline

2005/2006 896,612     decline

2006/2007 901,313    

2007/2008 899,036    decline

2008/2009 1,012,697   balloon

2009/2010 761,868   sudden drop after balloon

2010/2011 738,700    decline

 

Whats that trend?

[Five Seasons]

Sorry, but you are wrong on that one. Take a look at our declining numbers, the proof is there that many quit, and over time it has become a serious issue.

 

 

When did I ever say that lack of crossbow hunting is the whole problem or even a big chunk of it? Again, with your typical tactic of trying to put words in people's mouths. I will however guarantee that there is a percentage of hunters that leave archery hunting because they can no longer draw a bow, and there are others that dont archery hunt because they dont have the time to practice, etc.

 

Care to guess again on the stats in this state?

 

please see your first quote. This was in response to me claiming the lack of crossbow hunting in the state has not negatively affected hunters. How else am I supposed to interpret your comment about declining numbers? Were you just throwing out a random incorrect factoid, not in response to my statement? You're confusing dude. I don't get it...

 

and I cant believe I keep saying it, but I support elderly and disabled using a crossbow. You know that. Stop bringing it to the table.

 

BTW, the QDMA numbers are inflated by things that they count in there like "hunters that dont hunt every year", etc.

 

 

QDMA, NYB etc. They're all a bunch of lying agenda pushing anti-hunters to you. I've asked you before why you don't belong to organizations and I think it's obvious you have some sort of issue with them.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Belo

[Doc]

I couldn't say just who has the right numbers. In fact the licensing structure is so fluid that license sales may not really equate to hunter trends. I don't buy anything but a bow license anymore, so I don't know whether I am being counted or not. If they are counting lifetime licenses every year, I hope they are subtracting the ones that are dead or out of active hunting. The supersportsman's license alone is structured such that you can't tell exactly what kind of hunting is going on by each license-holder. i don't even own a muzzleloader, but according to my license, I am eligible to hunt in that season. I know a lot of those that purchase the sportsman's license don't bow hunt. So, the point is that license sales are a very unreliable way of judging participation. And they aren't through massaging the license structure yet with a huge change coming this year.

 

Perhaps the more meaningful stat would be the number of man-hours spent afield each year. If only there was a credible way of getting at that, you would be getting the most accurate look at the trends in hunting popularity. That is the area where I have noticed significant decreases. Some of these dead quiet opening day afternoons and all of the days afterward when I have heard as many small game shots before the deer season even opened have to be signifying something about deer hunter participation.

 

 

[Five Seasons]

and in reference to crossbow hunting, the bow hunting tags have increased in NY.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

and they are really going to go up when they add the crossbows to the season.

[WNYBuckHunter]

please see your first quote. This was in response to me claiming the lack of crossbow hunting in the state has not negatively affected hunters. How else am I supposed to interpret your comment about declining numbers? Were you just throwing out a random incorrect factoid, not in response to my statement? You're confusing dude. I don't get it...

 

and I cant believe I keep saying it, but I support elderly and disabled using a crossbow. You know that. Stop bringing it to the table.

 

 

 

QDMA, NYB etc. They're all a bunch of lying agenda pushing anti-hunters to you. I've asked you before why you don't belong to organizations and I think it's obvious you have some sort of issue with them.

 

 

 

You just cant possibly stop trying to put words in my mouth, can you? What I quoted had nothing to do with crossbows, go look.

 

Oh, and Im an officer in the local branch of the QDMA (which is why I was at the Leadership Summit), so you have no clue as to what you are talking about on that either. I just dont list what organizations I belong to in my signature. You really do make yourself look like a buffoon when you start assuming and saying that someone said something they never did.

[phade]

Hunting license sales

 

2002/2003 981,532   decline

2003/2004 951,158    decline

2004/2005 936,848     decline

2005/2006 896,612     decline

2006/2007 901,313    

2007/2008 899,036    decline

2008/2009 1,012,697   balloon

2009/2010 761,868   sudden drop after balloon

2010/2011 738,700    decline

 

Whats that trend?

 

Lifetime licenses add up over time, don't forget. It's not just a one time thing. It compounds year over year. As time wears on...the number becomes more important. 899 vs 901 is statistically irrelevant, too.

 

That decline, whatever they indicate and valiated to a talking point, is likely price-point driven. Plus, the best part, is that the DEC even states that their numbers on this aren't accurate...lol. So we really have no numbers to argue on at all that we can fully confirm. DEC even noted so in their management plan.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I see your point. Regardless of what the actual numbers are though, more recruitment is a good thing, and we should be using sensible tools to achieve that.

 

Like I said before, I do agree that hunter access is THE biggest problem we have.

[mike rossi]

I love this general assumption making. I'd like to know who these folks are that fork over their annual membership fees and attend banquets but disagree with their organization. The NYB are very public and upfront on their stance. Hopefully any new member visits their website before they join and it's all right on the front page. I would seriously question any member of any organization who disagrees with their organizations opinions.

 

In fact their stance is one of the main reasons I joined.

Unless one is very careless, it is obvious that the NYB is anti-crossbow. That is one of their important objectives , as a matter of fact I believe they have an anti cross bow fund? So if you mean that a NYB member should know his organization is anti cross bow, I agree with you. But that is not my point and you are mischaracterizing what I said, although correct, it was a generalization...

 

The county federations and the NYSCC do not collectively voice the NYB's or every organization's stance, concerns, or interests. They certainly are not a voice for unaffiliated individuals... Yet these organizations exercise a fair amount of control over the DEC by influencing the legislature. Stakeholder participation is consistent with the North American Conservation Plan, particularly on social issues. However that concept is heavily abused to the point which best policies are not always implemented and/or democracy is avoided.

 

What compounds this is a lack of conservation ethic or a good enough understanding of conservation by influential people in the sporting community. It is further compounded by the Outdoor Writers Association which publishes material more redundant than this thread. Then it is compounded again, by selfishness and age. The leadership is self serving and old. Planting oaks which may not bare mast for thirty years isn't to exciting to the 50, 60 or 70 year old know-it-all who wont be around or able to hunt when habitat projects begin to bare fruit (pun intended).

[mike rossi]

and they are really going to go up when they add the crossbows to the season.

And the kill will go up with it. That may mean eventually an entirely different bag limit structure for all the other deer seasons, including buck firearm. That will be another saga...

[Paula]

Yet the same guys that say its old and tiresome continue to participate every time.

 

I was about to say something about that, they don't like that it has gone over and over but they keep coming back just to give an opinion that they are tired of reading the same argument. I don't get it, if you don't like the subject anymore why keep reading or opening it up?

[Paula]

Oh i see, you still have something to say, of course you do. lol

[mike rossi]

See attached chart for the nationwide...

 

 

Not only has NY had a rise in hunters, but it is above the national average. The dip in the mid 2000s can be pretty much traced back to the big whiff the DEC had with deer numbers and DMPs...the boom population of the early 2000's and then that big drop off. Rebounding deer numbers means more license sales imo.

 

But in any case, NY has had statistically important growth since 2006.

Nationally, an increase in sales in 2012 from 2011 is encouraging, but it doesn't necessarily mean the long term trend is reversing. This increase was mainly deer licenses, other licenses still dropped.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Mike. That may actually lead to a one buck rule and I would be all for that. Maybe they will take a stance of adding them to units that have yearly doe harvests below the desired numbers. 8h is under on the tales

[NFA-ADK]

OMG just finished all 20 pages.  DAM  Well I will just say I have been called elitist for not liking guns during bow season, and crossbows draw and trigger lock make it a easer weapon. IMO  Bow requires practice, skill, strength and an understanding of anatomy which in my opinion gives the hunter a greater appreciation for its prey.  Crossbows entice the "Slobs" as some have been called.  Again JMO.

 

Remember perspective...

 

If I own my own land and:

1: Hunted the land with traditional equipment since I was a kid, I will think that is all that should be allowed...

2: Own my own farm and never hunt yet allow hunters, I might see this new tool as a distinct advantage...

 

If I have any injury preventing bow hunting I will welcome crossbows...

If I am too busy to practice it is welcomed.

If I see a bunch of idiots littering and making a camp fire in the middle of the trail next to my tree stand, I will think getting them into the woods early season is a mistake...

 

Personally I just don't like having guns during bow season but that's just me, just putting full camo hunters with the orange army just seems stupid.  What makes sense to one is a puzzle to others...  Elitist I am for I agree with Doc and his cause... 

 

BLa bla bla

This is a no win subject, no matter what I say or any other say we will not agree.  Lets agree to disagree...  Or did I just start another 20 pages, lol...

[sits in trees]

Hunting license sales

 

2002/2003 981,532   decline

2003/2004 951,158    decline

2004/2005 936,848     decline

2005/2006 896,612     decline

2006/2007 901,313    

2007/2008 899,036    decline

2008/2009 1,012,697   balloon

2009/2010 761,868   sudden drop after balloon

2010/2011 738,700    decline

 

Whats that trend?

i dont even have to look at the stats anymore, i can see the differance just around town during hunting season and even in the woods, there are far less hunters and hardly any youngins out in the woods.

[WNYBuckHunter]

i dont even have to look at the stats anymore, i can see the differance just around town during hunting season and even in the woods, there are far less hunters and hardly any youngins out in the woods.

Yep. Just look around at the state land during gun season, empty most of the time. You used to see trucks and cars parked to the side of the road all over the place, not anymore. Its easy to see.

[Doc]

I think it goes a lot farther than just an argument about license sales. I believe that of the current license holders, the average hunter is not putting in the time that they used to. To me that is more of a problem to the sport of hunting than changes in license sales. It shows that the problems of hunting popularity goes way beyond weapons choices, or hunter recruitment, or season lengths, or any other of those superficial so called cures. Basicly what we have is a social shift away from hunting, and there may not be any cure for that. There is no permanent way to cater to hunter laziness and lack of interest. You can sell all the licenses you want, but you can't force people to use them.