Just how smart are these critters?

[phade]

Goats understand that the best stuff to eat is outside that fence. It's either that or they just appreciate a good challenge ..... lol. Whatever their reason for wanting to get out, if they can stand there and watch what it takes to unlock and get out of a gate, I find it hard that somebody can't understand that that is "learned" behavior. There is no "instinct" in that. I don't know whether that is assigning human traits to animals or not. I think it is simply understanding that animals can be taught things and have the ability to learn. Personally I only know what I have seen. And to think that a deer does not have the same abilities as a goat to learn things may not be the most correct thinking either.

Again, you are giving too much credit to an instinct built into an animal.

Goats are naturally (read instinct) inquisitive and slaves to their stomach - I imagine you have seen the crap they can eat. Nothing more complicated than that. You associating with a goat watching a human, then internally processing the image before them, cognitively processing the procedure, rationally weighing the pro vs. con, and then doing it. Seriously, it's freaking goat that wants to eat.

[phade]

Learned experiences and responses are not instinctive.

Can't see the forest for the trees. You keep trying to put human characteristic on an animal. Stop doing that and look at it. They're not "learning"...they're surviving.

Survival is the driver. If a deer sees a hunter in a stand, the next time it encounters such a situation, it is instinct. The deer goes into fight or flight, which is an INSTINCTUAL condition. It just so happens deer are hardwired for flight. Such animals don't have the frontal lobe to process this stuff. It just isn't happening in the brain.

Animals are slave to food, water, mating, and cover

Edited March 12, 2013 by phade

[growalot]

They either have security they need, and/or the food they need.

I have to say I think your "under" thinking it...deer have an instinctual fear of canine..they have to predator/prey....what would make a deer find bedding down next to two huge barking canine for security...there is no food involved..... while other canine roamed the woods. They had learned these particular canine could not get at them....they learned this by walking by said canine both day and night.with out being attacked...learned not instinct

If you have never watched an animal show or watched a movie containing animals I could understand your response...I don't believe that to be the case...animals can be trained through conditioning to do things...which is still learning...In the wild the only reward would be safety...something they learned

[phade]

Again, their fear of the dog is overridden by another aspect that you are not identifying and automatically saying they "learned" something...deer don't learn - at least not in a cognitive sense (if I do A, then B, but if I don't do A, then C). They survive based on instinct and hardwiring.

Edited March 12, 2013 by phade

[growalot]

I just went back and re-read the responses ....One thought sticks out in my mind....If one perceives an animal as having no ability to reason or learn ...(definitions below...please refer to Merriam /Webster and comprehension(first line) They would find it less offensive to kill and eat said animal...Perhaps that explains the responses...

Personally I think that most animals I hunt can learn and reason...what would be the challenge in hunting them if they couldn't reason..... that something as big as a man in a tree could mean danger and that with such an encounter learn to look up for danger...They learn certain smells are danger or not..... due to experience...they collect sounds and sights and reason out which are dangerous and when...They learn when to lay down and hide or get up and run...

oogle.com/chromebook

¹rea·son

noun \ˈrē-z^ən\

Definition of REASON

1

a : a statement offered in explanation or justification <gave reasons that were quite satisfactory>

b : a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon>

c : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially : something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact <the reasons behind her client's action>

d : the thing that makes some fact intelligible : cause <the reason for earthquakes> <the real reason why he wanted me to stay — Graham Greene>

2

a (1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : intelligence (2) : proper exercise of the mind (3) : sanity

b : the sum of the intellectual powers

www.Waldorf.edu/Psychology

learning

noun

Definition of LEARNING

1

: the act or experience of one that learns

2

: knowledge or skill acquired by instruction or study

3

: modification of a behavioral tendency by experience (as exposure to conditioning)

Edited March 12, 2013 by growalot

[phade]

^{People give deer too much credit of having human characteristics and abilities when it simply doesn't exist. Teddy Roosevelt was a big supporter of this back in the day, called it the "bambi" movement. Go figure, Disney comes out with such a story/tale later on. People that try to protray human characteristics onto animals are more likely to be PETA supporters imo.}

^{A goldfish has a memory of 10 seconds or so. When it is full from eating, it thinks it has been full all of its life. When it is dying, it only knows death. A deer is obviously more well-designed, but the premise is the same. They only know how to survive. That's it. Period.}

^{Now, there is nothing wrong with appreciating an animal who has skill sets designed into them that are superior to ours and us having a desire to overcome their abilities by sending a sharp peiece of metal exploding through their chest cavity at 2,200 FPS, or a sharpened broadhead through the heart and lungs. Nor is there anything wrong with slapping their loins on a grill. Nor is it being amazed at their will to live, their innate ability to ensure their survival, nor the pity of their struggle. We can both respect and desire to kill the same animal. I choose not to kill deer from my deck when they are there inthe back yard. That said, I drive a mile down the road, spend countless hours and more money than my better half knows, to kill one there.}

[growalot]

Who is over thinking it now...lol I will agree to disagree....

[growalot]

That said, I drive a mile down the road, spend countless hours and more money than my better half knows, to kill one there.

Sorry .....but just have to...If you actually have to get in a vehicle to drive just one mile to hunt...I can see how you could be someone that would spend more $$ than the better half knows...lol...you may want to spend a bit of it on a good pair of hiking boots.

[phade]

Sorry .....but just have to...If you actually have to get in a vehicle to drive just one mile to hunt...I can see how you could be someone that would spend more $$ than the better half knows...lol...you may want to spend a bit of it on a good pair of hiking boots.

I am not walking a mile down the road at 430 a.m. dressed in camo with 20 property owners in between me and where I can hunt. LOL.

[growalot]

Phade.... even with my history I do that both here and camp..the only time I turn on the head lamp..lol

[nycredneck]

There is a county park near my house that you can hunt by permit, there are hikers, joggers and bicycle riders using the park all year long. When I hike in to hunt and stay on the trails the deer will watch me pass... but step off the trail and into the woods and it's game over. They have gotten used to people staying on the trail and will stay put even within feet of a passing jogger, just don't set one foot off the trail. Stands must be at least 50ft off the trail and elevated hunting only.

[phade]

Phade.... even with my history I do that both here and camp..the only time I turn on the head lamp..lol

I don't even want to tell you how many times I forget my headlamp. I usually walk in w/o a lamop until I absolultely need it. Consequently, the days I forget it...are also the ones I get a face full of spider web. Yuck.

[moog5050]

There is a lot written on this subject over hundreds of years - all without a definitive answer. My opinion is that deer have the ability to learn and reason, but not at the same level of most humans - but perhaps better than the goldfish Phade mentioned. If experience teaches a deer to do something differently, that is learning and reasoning. It understood cause and effect - i.e. "I walked too close to that big guy in the stand and he flung something at me (but missed)." AND the deer made a conscious decision " I won't walk close to that guy again." What remains the priority in the deer thought process, however, is food, safety and mating. Now simply ducking the arrow may be instinctive, not learned - the decision not to return when there is a big guy in the tree is learned. That's why most think BBs are stupid - they just haven't learned yet. But if they do learn quickly enough, they are darn hard to kill as they get older. Some deer are better at learning than others - just like humans. Personally, I am hoping to see the big ones that just got lucky and haven't learned much.

[Doc]

Again, you are giving too much credit to an instinct built into an animal.

Goats are naturally (read instinct) inquisitive and slaves to their stomach - I imagine you have seen the crap they can eat. Nothing more complicated than that. You associating with a goat watching a human, then internally processing the image before them, cognitively processing the procedure, rationally weighing the pro vs. con, and then doing it. Seriously, it's freaking goat that wants to eat.

I'm simply saying that learned behavior is by definition not instinctive behavior. And yes it does take a certain level of mental processing to equate that hook with freedom. He was not born with the instinct to unhook latches and open gates. But he was born with the ability to learn.

[phade]

I'm simply saying that learned behavior is by definition not instinctive behavior. And yes it does take a certain level of mental processing to equate that hook with freedom. He was not born with the instinct to unhook latches and open gates. But he was born with the ability to learn.

Animals, and humans for that matter, will do some wierd stuff for food, survival, shelter, etc. Argubaly even crazier stuff for mating.

This is more a thread for August/Sept. isn't it, anyway? We should save this one and bring it back up when everyone is really testy!

Edited March 12, 2013 by phade

[Doc]

There is a lot written on this subject over hundreds of years - all without a definitive answer. My opinion is that deer have the ability to learn and reason, but not at the same level of most humans - but perhaps better than the goldfish Phade mentioned. If experience teaches a deer to do something differently, that is learning and reasoning. It understood cause and effect - i.e. "I walked too close to that big guy in the stand and he flung something at me (but missed)." AND the deer made a conscious decision " I won't walk close to that guy again." What remains the priority in the deer thought process, however, is food, safety and mating. Now simply ducking the arrow may be instinctive, not learned - the decision not to return when there is a big guy in the tree is learned. That's why most think BBs are stupid - they just haven't learned yet. But if they do learn quickly enough, they are darn hard to kill as they get older. Some deer are better at learning than others - just like humans. Personally, I am hoping to see the big ones that just got lucky and haven't learned much.

You are right on target. Learning and reasoning does not start at a human level. And just because a deer's intelligence does not match humans, doesn't mean that they do not have any intelligence. The real question is just where are the limits of a deer's ability to learn, not whether or not they do have the ability to learn.

[moog5050]

You are right on target. Learning and reasoning does not start at a human level. And just because a deer's intelligence does not match humans, doesn't mean that they do not have any intelligence. The real question is just where are the limits of a deer's ability to learn, not whether or not they do have the ability to learn.

I thought some were arguing that deer only act on instinct - I disagree there, although certainly much of a deer's actions are instinctual. Not sure the level of learning limits can be quantified. Heck, we can't do that for humans, let alone animals. But if a dog can learn commands, I suspect deer learn much more than most give them credit for.

[cynthiafu]

i know they are super smart . was hunting an area that was blocked on 3 sides . we sent one person around the field to send them back to us . i watch 4 deer when they got to the rock wall . they ducked thier heads and went right back around to were the person went in . it was funny . when the person came out the other side we sent him back around the same way he went . and sure enough those same 4 deer came back out ducked their heads and did the same thing .

[fasteddie]

I started bow hunting in !994 at the age of 53 . When I first started the deer seldom looked up . Over the years it seems like they have smartened up to the fact that something in an elevated position is a danger to them . They must have a learning ability .

[WNYBuckHunter]

There is a lot written on this subject over hundreds of years - all without a definitive answer. My opinion is that deer have the ability to learn and reason, but not at the same level of most humans - but perhaps better than the goldfish Phade mentioned. If experience teaches a deer to do something differently, that is learning and reasoning. It understood cause and effect - i.e. "I walked too close to that big guy in the stand and he flung something at me (but missed)." AND the deer made a conscious decision " I won't walk close to that guy again." What remains the priority in the deer thought process, however, is food, safety and mating. Now simply ducking the arrow may be instinctive, not learned - the decision not to return when there is a big guy in the tree is learned. That's why most think BBs are stupid - they just haven't learned yet. But if they do learn quickly enough, they are darn hard to kill as they get older. Some deer are better at learning than others - just like humans. Personally, I am hoping to see the big ones that just got lucky and haven't learned much.

Deer do not duck arrows or anything else for that matter. When they jump, they squat down to load the muscles in their legs. They dont know it was an arrow or anything flung at them, they hear the noise and react to it, its how they are wired. I just do not see what they do as cognative thought. Conditioning, yes, reasoning, no.

[backbeach]

sorry instinct hmm!

[Doc]

Deer do not duck arrows or anything else for that matter. When they jump, they squat down to load the muscles in their legs. They dont know it was an arrow or anything flung at them, they hear the noise and react to it, its how they are wired. I just do not see what they do as cognative thought. Conditioning, yes, reasoning, no.

Absolutely, the reaction to an arrow is a instinctual act. Actually it is a reflexive act that occurs way too fast to be anything that is thought about. It all happens much like we flinch at a loud unexpected noise. I don't think anyone is arguing that there are not instinctive and reflexive reactions that play a large part in a deer's life. Right from the day they are born, there are defensive acts that are born in (intinctive) behaviors.

However, there are a lot of things already noted in this thread that definitely are "learned" behaviors, and learning does require some rudimentary level of intelligence. It cannot be denied that most animals have the ability to learn (although I have had some pets that made me wonder about that ....lol) and that is something completely apart from instinct. And per the original post on this thread, I have to wonder just how intelligent these critters really are.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sure they learn things here and there through conditioning, but they dont reason. They are accustomed to the normal things going on around them, and anything out of the ordinary is danger and kicks in their instinctive reactions. I just dont buy into the deer are smart opinion.

[Doc]

Sure they learn things here and there through conditioning, but they dont reason. They are accustomed to the normal things going on around them, and anything out of the ordinary is danger and kicks in their instinctive reactions. I just dont buy into the deer are smart opinion.

Ha-ha ... well, you really don't have to. Smart is a relative term, and I suppose until we figure out a way to interview them it is all totally uneducated opinion. I do believe that with enough observation we eventually see enough to show us that we usually underestimate their abilities to figure things out. The deal that I related about the deer's close relative, the goat, shows me that they (goats) at least have the ability to reason and figure out solutions to problems as ours did with the gate hook. So for me it is no great leap to assume deer have the same capabilities. So I have to allow for the very strong possibility that deer do have some level of reasoning, intelligence, "smarts". Does that mean that deer are smart? My guess (and that's all any of us are doing here) is that compared to a lot of other animals, they probably are.

[landtracdeerhunter]

Deer become educated, hunters help the process.