just a tad bothered....

[growalot]

by this season....I know we have a lot of bow hunters...so just assume a good take...opener of gun always lots of shooting then tapers to hardly any thing...late season a shot or two...

 

This year several shots close by every single day...I really hope the lions share stayed on the lands that boarder our place to the south....I'd like to have a better season next year....

[DanceswithSkunks]

I believe this year had a bumper crop of hard mast, acorns. Deer will forsake most other food for acorns when they are available. They use the carbs to produce tallow, the fat that lays along the top of their back. During years of big acorn production I have seen deer during gun season with 2 to 3 inches of tallow along their back. I would find a stand of hardwoods with a lot of Oak trees. White Oak being preferred over Reds. White Oaks produce acorns every other year. Reds produce every year. The last 2 weeks of September and first 2 weeks of October I make it a point to hunt hardwoods with plenty of Oaks. I sit all day. Deer will feed and bed in hardwoods until Acorns become scarce and move out in to Ag fields at night.  If you have room to plant trees on the edge of a field opening I would go with Sawtooth Oaks. They produce at 7 years and need to be out in open away from competing species. I put about 50 of them in and they have tons of droppings around them every year but they don't get visited till after dark.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_acutissima

[Merlot]

Spoke to a DEC official in Buffalo and he was not encouraged from the early deer take results. He felt the season wasn't going well for meeting harvest target for DMU's in WNY area, but who knows for sure until the official tally comes in.

[dbHunterNY]

reporting system has got to be changed or deer numbers will go down and down and down.  they think fewer deer have been taken then really have been.  they issue more permits the following year.  they then push to get permits filled when all really would be if everybody reported their deer.

[Pygmy]

 

I believe this year had a bumper crop of hard mast, acorns. Deer will forsake most other food for acorns when they are available. They use the carbs to produce tallow, the fat that lays along the top of their back. During years of big acorn production I have seen deer during gun season with 2 to 3 inches of tallow along their back. I would find a stand of hardwoods with a lot of Oak trees. White Oak being preferred over Reds. White Oaks produce acorns every other year. Reds produce every year. The last 2 weeks of September and first 2 weeks of October I make it a point to hunt hardwoods with plenty of Oaks. I sit all day. Deer will feed and bed in hardwoods until Acorns become scarce and move out in to Ag fields at night.  If you have room to plant trees on the edge of a field opening I would go with Sawtooth Oaks. They produce at 7 years and need to be out in open away from competing species. I put about 50 of them in and they have tons of droppings around them every year but they don't get visited till after dark.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_acutissima

 

7 YEARS...!! Geeze.at my age I don't even buy green bananas...

[First-light]

A lot of food produced by Mother nature this year. Deer don't have to move as far. We also had a lot of standing corn late into the season. It will be interesting to see the numbers.

 

[DanceswithSkunks]

Wet years also put more minerals in to the vegetation. Has there been an increase in the average rack size this year? 

 

There's a farmer near one of the spots I hunt that farms about 1,200 acres. He puts in 110 day corn and harvests it in September. He also has 3 dryers for the corn. Finding standing corn around in October is a chore.

Edited December 11, 2013 by DanceswithSkunks

[growalot]

Danceswithskunks...thanks ..informative post..may have missed my point....much more deer shooting than usual this year...especially to our north side of property....Weds. snowing to beat band cold as hell...5 shots this afternoon alone...been like this since opening day....the deer aren't getting much of a break unless they have stayed  across the street  on our southern pieces of property...neighbors on either side have little hunting after opening gun week...everyone one hunts here...4 doe tags possible with 2 more sign overs...two possible buck.....and still some...not as much...but some brown down attitudes around....

[DanceswithSkunks]

Sounds like you have too many gunners and not enough hunters in that area.

 

In 2000 the Zone I hunt in PA went with basically an unlimited doe tag program. opening day I heard over 300 shots from 6:30 till 10AM. Then from 1PM till dark it was the same thing. 75K tags available for a 4 county area in SE PA 5C. Hunters could go buy them over the counter at $4.25 a piece. Anti Hunters went there and bought 50 of them and would walk outside the courthouse, rip them up and scatter them. Sheriff Deputys would cite them for littering. LOL They thought they were saving deer by buying all the tags and not using them Next year Game Comisssion raised it to 82K. Back in the '60s and to this days still there are Old time camps that buy Doe tags and burn them as a tradition the night before Buck season. They didn't realize if the doe harvest was too low they would raise the allotment next year. Hunters back then could get one Doe tag if they were lucky. Hunters would drive 4 hours one way to mail them the day before they went on sale.

[nyantler]

reporting system has got to be changed or deer numbers will go down and down and down.  they think fewer deer have been taken then really have been.  they issue more permits the following year.  they then push to get permits filled when all really would be if everybody reported their deer.

 

I use to think the same thing... so I took the time to ask some DEC biologists about the reporting situation... their answer was it doesn't really matter to them.. according to them their statistical method is just as good as actual numbers... seemed strange to me yet they were adamant about it and didn't see the urgency of having 100% reporting. It doesn't concern them in the least.

[dbHunterNY]

they aren't going to say the current system doesn't work unless they're going to change it soon.  statistical method isn't just as good as actual numbers I'm sure that's why it seemed strange to you.  I believe we only get by with the system we have because NY is blessed with little problems in terms of EHD, CWD, and others.  Also a big help is the simple fact that deer are so adaptable to where and how they live and grow as a population.

[Doc]

I use to think the same thing... so I took the time to ask some DEC biologists about the reporting situation... their answer was it doesn't really matter to them.. according to them their statistical method is just as good as actual numbers... seemed strange to me yet they were adamant about it and didn't see the urgency of having 100% reporting. It doesn't concern them in the least.

The DEC is heavily invested in their current statistical system of management. They have sold each other on it being the only way to operate. The fact is that it probably is the only practical way to manage. It may even be true that it is marginally accurate most of the time. As far as it being "as good as actual numbers", well, that has to be stretching it a lot. For one thing, they never have experienced actual numbers, so I don't know how they could make a statement like that (with a straight face). But such statements really do put their credibility to the test. I am suspicious that they have been over-sold on statistics. Their whole job is predicated on the accuracy of the statistical systems that have been sold to them. Would you expect them to do anything but vigorously defend them. For one thing, I am sure they are quite expert at using statistics that are handed to them, but probably not all that expert at creating statistical systems. They do what Cornell tells them to do, but are DEC biologists really statisticians? I don't know .... are they? And if they aren't, are they really capable of evaluating the accuracy without any attempts at real physical verification? Again, I don't know, but I sure do have some strong suspicions judging on past results.

 

Statistics can be useful and even necessary in certain applications. But we all know they are not infallible and they are not magic...lol.

 

[growalot]

I'm curious how they manage to calculate the wound and die deer...seeing ppl don't have to report deer not recovered...is it a 1:1 ratio...and now that the state isn't removing road kills like they use to....... where do those numbers come from...around here car hits are so often ...that many aren't reported to insurance companies...how do those #'s come into play?

[Doc]

Ok ..... maybe this subject needs its own thread. I'll go off and start one.

[landtracdeerhunter]

Grow, How many shots= a shot deer. I'd say maybe 50% connect successfully. Maybe that number is high.

 

Maybe I missing your point too?

 

And as far as the DEC is concern, I find little value in their or insurance company results on car deer accidents. I see many people hit deer, throw in trunk or back of pickup and leave, never to be reported.

Edited December 12, 2013 by landtracdeerhunter

[growalot]

Around here ...Lord only knows...but even though we have a decent sized "herd" of deer ...This year We never got the large grouping in the fields...To be honest...never "saw" much rut activity...I kept waiting for a real good chase  phase...staging area activity and it never happened...my plots were not mowed...nor are they still...to the ground...even after the corn cut....the acorns were rotting on the ground under many trees....

Now all that with a substantial increase in shots heard compared to other years...it bothers me a bit...I'm sure all the doe tag are needed...problem is they can never count on an area the size of 8N that certain "pockets" of the unit will  or could be devastated do to increased hunting pressure...pressure here this year apparently increased significantly....that may say a lot about unemployment or retirement status for the area I suppose...Devistaed is too strong a word lets go with adversely affected...With a predicted high snow fall season upon us..

[Five Seasons]

there is certainly a lot of various opinions on herd management. how many does? what about immature bucks? what do you consider immature? etc...

 

unless you and your surrounding land owners are all on the same page... it's one of those things that you have little control over and all it'll do is piss you off thinking about it.

 

that's just my .02. Personally I would like handful of doe taken off our land, and only 2.5 or older bucks. But it just doesn't happen it seems. I even considered shooting a small doe instead of the mature one I shot yesterday because I know she could easily drop 3 in the spring. idk...

[growalot]

I don't think it's something to get PO'd about...some concern...but luckily I do have at least two bordering neighbors that I can rely on roughly 100 acres each...one has a no doe and no young buck policy and the other has limited the hunting on his.....  that was a bit off set by a new land owner that borders....  allowing several ppl on his new place where there was just one hunter there before.....I have to say I saw many many fawn this year...many young buck...not a whole lot of mature doe...perhaps they were in a staging area and lots of chasing occurred...just they were drawn to a different area...and my nursery became a teen rec. area...lol

[landtracdeerhunter]

Grow, if I recall, you were showing some nice mature buck pictures early. We don't start seeing mature buck here, until mid October. If memory serves me correct, your area was similar to ours with numbers of doe.  Supposed your deer patterns changed for that area?

 

We didn't have the usual fawn sightings through the summer, but I blame that on the late start hay harvests.

Edited December 12, 2013 by landtracdeerhunter

[growalot]

Yes..and I did have a good number of mature ...very nocturnal buck ...I also know most were taken...I have yet to check cams...obvious reasons...so the story is still unfolding on that score....This year unlike most others We did not get a whole lot of day movement....this is very unusual for doe here...most shots were those I can barely see my hand shots early on and some later...the mid day volleys I would think were drives or walk and gun....last night I assume it was a kill shot at 5:14...I heard the almost dark shot before hand...just much more activity than we've had in recent years...more hunters moving in..as you know we have some of the best ag/wood lot hunting country in the state

 

As I said I'm hoping the old gals have been holding up on our southern properties...but the guys north of us are finding something to shoot at...lol

[dbHunterNY]

Grow, if I recall, you were showing some nice mature buck pictures early. We don't start seeing mature buck here, until mid October. If memory serves me correct, your area was similar to ours with numbers of doe.  Supposed your deer patterns changed for that area?

 

We didn't have the usual fawn sightings through the summer, but I blame that on the late start hay harvests.

 

I've noticed that about fawn sightings too.  Running trail cams early tends to help.  Our ground is either hay, woods, or swamp on the family farm.  Most of it being hay fields.

[CuseHunter]

I won't get into any theories I have here... All I will say is I saw some younger bucks I decided to pass during bow, but besides that this season has sucked for me. Spent countless hours in archery hunting, disappointed in sightings. Unfortunately this gun and late season I wasn't able to hunt any more than ~10 days.

[nyantler]

The DEC is heavily invested in their current statistical system of management. They have sold each other on it being the only way to operate. The fact is that it probably is the only practical way to manage. It may even be true that it is marginally accurate most of the time. As far as it being "as good as actual numbers", well, that has to be stretching it a lot. For one thing, they never have experienced actual numbers, so I don't know how they could make a statement like that (with a straight face). But such statements really do put their credibility to the test. I am suspicious that they have been over-sold on statistics. Their whole job is predicated on the accuracy of the statistical systems that have been sold to them. Would you expect them to do anything but vigorously defend them. For one thing, I am sure they are quite expert at using statistics that are handed to them, but probably not all that expert at creating statistical systems. They do what Cornell tells them to do, but are DEC biologists really statisticians? I don't know .... are they? And if they aren't, are they really capable of evaluating the accuracy without any attempts at real physical verification? Again, I don't know, but I sure do have some strong suspicions judging on past results.

 

Statistics can be useful and even necessary in certain applications. But we all know they are not infallible and they are not magic...lol.

 

There answer also included that other states that have near 100% reporting do it both ways and come up with the same results. I left the meeting shaking my head in disbelief... I told them that there could be nothing as accurate as the real number from 100% reporting.. they just kind of shrugged their shoulders... so that's what we're dealing with in NY