Taking the plunge

[shawnhu]

Moog, thanks for pointing out the reasons why the DL should be where it should be for optimal stability.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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[phade]

The starting point is all relative...if you have a 29" DL, you are drawing 29". Period. You are not drawing longer to get to full draw.

 

 

[moog5050]

All these tweaks and adjustments and even changes in anchor are simply trying to alter things to re-match your personal draw length back to the bow's as-purchased draw length after changes in equipment have forced you to do so ...... right?

 

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  I give up. 

[moog5050]

Moog, thanks for pointing out the reasons why the DL should be where it should be for optimal stability.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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No problem.  I am only repeating what I learned from archers much more knowledgeable than me.

[Doc]

Because, as has been explained ad nauseum, the accessories don't change a shooters true DL.  Let me ask you this, assuming assessories never change, do you believe there is a correct DL for a shooter?  Do you think its optimal to have a shooter with a nock at his ear at full draw or perhaps at the chin if that is what is comfortable for him?  If the answer is yes, then you are bucking what every coach will teach.  Why, because the idea is to have the skeletal frame support the bow at full draw and relax the muscles.  If you are not in a T position (the position which will result in the nock under the eye), then you are using more muscle which tends to cause erratic movement of the pin and a less repeatable shot.

 

Do you agree that the nock should be under the eye at full draw?  If we can't agree on that simple premise, then we have no common ground to start the discussion that has been ongoing for 60-70 posts.  And again, I will agree to disagree. 

"Let me ask you this, assuming accessories never change, do you believe there is a correct DL for a shooter?" Yes

 

"Do you think its optimal to have a shooter with a nock at his ear at full draw or perhaps at the chin if that is what is comfortable for him?" That's a little tougher question because I have seen pros use all kinds of anchors. I have never seen the one back by the ear yet .... lol. I do think that comfort and super-consistent repeatability is the major requirement of an anchor. Not that it's relevant, but my anchor puts the calipers of the release at the corner of my mouth.

 

"Do you agree that the nock should be under the eye at full draw?" I agree with the logic you have provided for that anchor selection. I am not sure that my anchor is exactly there, but likely it is very close to that.

 

Here is where we have to slow down and pay very close attention to what is being said:

I think you are doing an excellent job of convincing me that adjusting for a D-loop addition by changing anchor is not a real smart option. So a bow that has been measured up without using a D-loop should not be counting on an anchor change to compensate when the bow is finally accessorized with a D-loop later .... right? With exactly the proper anchor as you have described, you have just lost 1/2" of pull of the string when you do add the D-loop .... right? Sounds to me like the string is no longer being pulled back to the previous anchor (The D-loop is, but the string is 1/2" in front of the D-loop), and therefore is not rolling the cams over quite as far as they did when you weren't using the D-loop. Am I right so far? Now, doesn't that mean that the cams have not rotated all the way back to the valley like it used to when you had no D-loop? Your draw length has not changed. The bow's design draw length has not changed. But the bows reaction to that same draw length is now pulling the string 1/2" shorter than it did without the D-loop. The bow is not functioning in the part of the valley that I want it to any more, is it? Now what do I do? I shouldn't really change my anchor. It is in the optimum location. I can't shorten my D-loop any more. I'm down to a 1/2 inch already. I can play with the length of my release but if I don't move my anchor, all that does is move my elbow and hand back 1/2" further. If that anchor doesn't move, I will never get that 1/2" back that the D-loop cost me. Am I correct so far? Wouldn't it have been great if the bow had been ordered with a measure length that considered that 1/2" loop in the first place?

 

Ok guys. There is my best shot at  justifying measuring draw length with the D-loop installed. Where am I wrong?

[NFA-ADK]

Don't bother Doc, some things just can not be explained.

Draw length :  1)One can refer this as the length of the bow when at full draw. 

 

                        2)One can refer this as the length one has to draw to get to full draw.  Two different things.  Let me explain...

While both can be the same distance on how far back has to be pulled, the anchor point will change causing a bow that is set up for a 30" draw that is perfect to be OFF if the person adds a D-loop.

Same draw Length YES but the person with a D-loop is now back 1/2 inch.  Resulting in what Feels like a longer draw when in actuality the draw is the same but his anchor points are different.

While the bow Draw length is the same and the length the person needs to draw back is the same distance from the bow the person is now further back on the string resulting in the person having to stretch the anchor point further back making it a longer draw for that person. 

Effect: Same draw length yes but because of the added D-loop the person is now drawing back further to get to full draw.  Understand?  Same distance to draw but adding a D-loop causes person to draw back further to get TOOOOOO full draw resulting in what is in actuality a longer draw length for that person not the bow.

Again same distance on draw for the bow but now the person is drawing back further to get to that position.

THis is what we are referring to when we say you changed you draw length.  We are referring to the persons draw not the bow. 

Like Doc said if you add a D-loop to your D-loop it will change YOUR draw length NOT the bow.  I believe this is what he is referring to NOT the bow length of draw.

I think we need to clarify when talking about draw length weather it is about the bow draw length or the persons draw length.  

Otherwise I give up for I had this argument last year. I had the same issue trying to explain the difference between a persons draw length vs bow draw length.

 

Add a 4 inch D-loop to your D-loop and you still have the same draw length for the bow but now that person has to anchor back 4 inches more to get to full draw. 

 

Plain and simple anything like a D-loop or a really long release will result in that person having to anchor further back. 

 

Wonder why the people at archery ranges say you changed your draw length when they know the bow did not change.  Go figure that one out, or go and argue with them telling them they are wrong and you can prove it, lol.

[thphm]

The starting point is all relative...if you have a 29" DL, you are drawing 29". Period. You are not drawing longer to get to full draw.

X2 Exactly Right.I guess it was a waste of time posting pictures By myself and others And the Video that was posted also,All showing and stating the same thing.

And I posted a picture how I made the Anchor Point the Same place that was also in the Video.

I just hope the person that started this thread does not get Discourged by all of this BS that is going on.

Young Fellow Just go to the Pro Shop as you intended and do as they recommend.

[Doc]

All you do is say my short responses are the result of not reading your information. Look, you just can't admit to yourself that what you think is the best thing since sliced bread is actually in your head. It's not an industry accepted practice and many people have commented on the industry accepted practice. If your idea was THAT great, THAT correct, THAT much more right, it'd be done by the shop in large. It's not. What's that say? It says you are on an island and the king of your own castle. That's it.

 

Your draw length is your draw length. You can't seem to understand that, and instead try to say you are holier than thou because we're not "reading" your posts. We're reading them, and the reply is the same, because you are spinning your wheels.

Calm down Bunkie. For crying out loud, you post a response that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying and you think that I didn't notice that you aren't even reading what I said. Now I do have a lot of time these days, but I still don't feel right wasting it on someone who is not even listening to the responses. Now I'm not going to get involved in your "holier than thou" comments and other little cutesy quips. I don't have time for that either. I simply think that it would be better just to simply skip trying to converse with you on this subject any longer because a one-side conversation isn't really all that interesting.

[Hardcore]

If I could draws circles & post it I would...this thread is going in circles.....they might be misshapen circles but circles none the less....

[moog5050]

Doc

 

This is your response:

 

"Do you agree that the nock should be under the eye at full draw?" I agree with the logic you have provided for that anchor selection. I am not sure that my anchor is exactly there, but likely it is very close to that.

 

Here is where we are not on the same page.  Its not anchor selection, its nock location.  The anchor does not dictate where the nock is at full draw.  The DL does and that is constant.  The anchor can vary based on loop and release and will be well behind the nock.  The nock can only go as far back as the bows DL will allow it when you draw the bow the full way.  You want that the bows DL to put the nock under your eye while at full draw.  This has nothing to do with the anchor. 

 

Again, assume a 3" loop.  If you draw the bow all the way and the nock is below your eye, then that anchor hand will be well behind your ear.  Anchor is horrible but the DL is correct.  Now shorten the loop to 3/8".  Same exact DL on the bow and it will result in the nock below your eye again, but now your anchor is better.  See the DL never changed, but your anchor did.  You seem to think that DL equates to how far back your pull your arm, but it doesn't.  It is how far the nock needs to travel to sit below your eye. (in general terms)  Again, exactly where below your eye then depends on where the pin settles best.  But again, even that is based on the distance of the nock from the extended bow arm, not where you hold your anchor hand. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

bacon

[phade]

Calm down Bunkie. For crying out loud, you post a response that has absolutely nothing to do with what I was saying and you think that I didn't notice that you aren't even reading what I said. Now I do have a lot of time these days, but I still don't feel right wasting it on someone who is not even listening to the responses. Now I'm not going to get involved in your "holier than thou" comments and other little cutesy quips. I don't have time for that either. I simply think that it would be better just to simply skip trying to converse with you on this subject any longer because a one-side conversation isn't really all that interesting.

You dont have time for this yet you cant understand your dl is what it is and post after post how the archery industry is wrong. Lol. Tin foil hat...here you come! Papist needs a friend.

Edited February 25, 2014 by phade

[moog5050]

Bacon is correct except I am dieting

[cdmckane]

Bacon is correct except I am dieting

Bacon has no calories. Just ask my wife.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[moog5050]

I will believe you on the bacon because I really want to.

[moog5050]

I think I doubled my post count on this thread. Thanks Doc. Moving up the ranks

[Five Seasons]

You know there's not much in season when...

[Lawdwaz]

You know there's not much in season when...

 

Yea, 167 posts when there  SHOULD have been a couple dozen or so congratulating the OP on getting into the greatest sport on Earth.

 

You guys really should to take a good long look in a mirror and see what you've become.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ELMER J. FUDD]

You guys are awesome!

[Five Seasons]

Yea, 167 posts when there SHOULD have been a couple dozen or so congratulating the OP on getting into the greatest sport on Earth.

You guys really should to take a good long look in a mirror and see what you've become.

Funny thing is that the only topics that go multiple pages are those where we disagree. Otherwise they're over in a few posts. Keeps things interesting I guess.

[sweet old bill]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to a couple shops this week. Klein's in Dryden and Greg's in Moravia.

I never intended to go to a big box store if I didn't have to. I bought a rifle from Walmart years ago and, while it killed a lot of deer, the salesman couldn't tell me if .30-06 and .25-06 were from the same parent cartridge. Good thing I was in the Army Marksmanship Unit and had just noticed the sale in the flyer. I knew what I wanted and they had the best price.

I have no idea what I want in a bow, but Klein's has an incredible reputation in this area, so that's where I'm going to start.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

 Look again at what Doc said and he is right on. Both the pro shops you talked about are great. I had my own shop for 20 + years and they will get you into the sport. First is making sure you are measured correctly for draw length, being a first time archer you may want to consider a bow in the 50 to 60 lb range, have it setup on the low side so you can build up to later in the year be on the 56 or higher weight range. Being over bowed or to much bow weight can be a killer for a new archer. You slide into bad habits. my best too you and hope you will have a life long new sport.

Bill

[Doc]

Doc

 

This is your response:

 

"Do you agree that the nock should be under the eye at full draw?" I agree with the logic you have provided for that anchor selection. I am not sure that my anchor is exactly there, but likely it is very close to that.

 

Here is where we are not on the same page.  Its not anchor selection, its nock location.  The anchor does not dictate where the nock is at full draw.  The DL does and that is constant.  The anchor can vary based on loop and release and will be well behind the nock.  The nock can only go as far back as the bows DL will allow it when you draw the bow the full way.  You want that the bows DL to put the nock under your eye while at full draw.  This has nothing to do with the anchor. 

 

Again, assume a 3" loop.  If you draw the bow all the way and the nock is below your eye, then that anchor hand will be well behind your ear.  Anchor is horrible but the DL is correct.  Now shorten the loop to 3/8".  Same exact DL on the bow and it will result in the nock below your eye again, but now your anchor is better.  See the DL never changed, but your anchor did.  You seem to think that DL equates to how far back your pull your arm, but it doesn't.  It is how far the nock needs to travel to sit below your eye. (in general terms)  Again, exactly where below your eye then depends on where the pin settles best.  But again, even that is based on the distance of the nock from the extended bow arm, not where you hold your anchor hand. 

Let me just ask this one more question. What are you physically using as a draw check that tells you to stop drawing the string if you are not using a physical touch-point as an anchor. And don't just say "the bow's draw length". I am talking about the physical feel or sensory trigger that tells you this is far enough. Here's what I am getting from your explanation. I am picturing that you are using the feel of the wall of the force/draw curve to tell you to stop drawing back, and the anchor (which is not really an anchor) is mere the default location. I will assume that you have the bow set up to make that happen when the nock is aligned with your eye. Is that what you are saying?

 

I am only asking because what I am getting from your explanation is perhaps the most bizarre set-up that I have ever heard described. And frankly, you really have my curiosity going. I have been around archers all my life, and have encountered an awful lot of them, and it has always been that you chose a repeatable, consistent anchor somewhere on your face and the bow's draw length was chosen to accommodate that.

 

I know that I am dragging out this discussion a lot longer than I should, but I am always open to learning new things and new ways of doing things, and I must admit that this part of the discussion has really piqued my interest.

[A Sportsman]

Been lurking through this entire thread. Finally decided to add my 2 cents.

Doc, I have understood and agree with what you are describing. I can't understand why some of the others won't admit that your anchor will need to change to accomodate it. Unless maybe the bow has a large valley and the shooter isn't anchoring against the wall.

For others who don't fit that situation and admit that the anchor does change, I'm shocked at how nonchalant they treat changing your anchor.

Lastly, if you think you can compensate for the d loop by adjuasting the release or getting a shorter realease, you right. But not if you already shoot a shorter release. And besides, if you shoot a longer release and want to change to a short one, fine, but releases aren't cheap. It be a shame to not buy the correct release to start with. Which means making sure the d loop is on the bow your buying as you get set up.

[thphm]

 Look again at what Doc said and he is right on. Both the pro shops you talked about are great. I had my own shop for 20 + years and they will get you into the sport. First is making sure you are measured correctly for draw length, being a first time archer you may want to consider a bow in the 50 to 60 lb range, have it setup on the low side so you can build up to later in the year be on the 56 or higher weight range. Being over bowed or to much bow weight can be a killer for a new archer. You slide into bad habits. my best too you and hope you will have a life long new sport.

Bill

 

X2 on the above comment. SOB are you still down south?. The Ground Hog was right and we are still in for a more weeks of winter.

 

[moog5050]

Let me just ask this one more question. What are you physically using as a draw check that tells you to stop drawing the string if you are not using a physical touch-point as an anchor. And don't just say "the bow's draw length". I am talking about the physical feel or sensory trigger that tells you this is far enough. Here's what I am getting from your explanation. I am picturing that you are using the feel of the wall of the force/draw curve to tell you to stop drawing back, and the anchor (which is not really an anchor) is mere the default location. I will assume that you have the bow set up to make that happen when the nock is aligned with your eye. Is that what you are saying?

 

I am only asking because what I am getting from your explanation is perhaps the most bizarre set-up that I have ever heard described. And frankly, you really have my curiosity going. I have been around archers all my life, and have encountered an awful lot of them, and it has always been that you chose a repeatable, consistent anchor somewhere on your face and the bow's draw length was chosen to accommodate that.

 

I know that I am dragging out this discussion a lot longer than I should, but I am always open to learning new things and new ways of doing things, and I must admit that this part of the discussion has really piqued my interest.

 

 

You are discussing compound bows, not recurves or long bows, correct?  Every compound I have ever shot has draw stops or cables stops.  They stop the bow from being drawn further when at full draw.  When I hit the wall, I know I hit the wall.  I anchor with my first knuckle below the hole in my ear and my nose touching the string - which puts the nock below my eye because I have the correct bow for my DL.  IF I wanted to anchor further back, I would increase my release length or d loop, not my DL because that would put the arrow nock further back than it should be.  Again, MY DL is the same, the d-loop or release only alter anchor point.

 

And for those that didn't take the time to read this ridiculously long thread, the point was that the length of your d-loop or release does not change what is the correct DL for a person.  That's all.

 

I really have to work today so off I go.