Fawn mortality

[First-light]

https://realtree.com/brow-tines-and-backstrap/what-really-kills-whitetail-fawns?fbclid=IwAR01fMqUYWDuhLdKDoxtEqgvJA9Ma7cRt-qbDZyHQbO_GuFl515XkAMfAKg

 

[Grouse]

Lots of things kill fawns.  I'm into limiting all of the things that kill fawns.  

[Doc]

I find it interesting that this article admits that their lone study contradicts "most all scientific studies of the past 30 years". So if they are trying to say that 30 years of scientific studies are bunk, why would we believe this one?

 

[First-light]

They weren't contradicting at all . They just have a new study that puts it right in front of you. I totally agree with this study then add in the predation  part and i'm fine with 1/3 of fawns make it. 

[First-light]

Hey you know what? I haven't heard. a coyote in 8 months. You know why? Last year while watching a field by my house two wolves came up the side of the field . Not enough time to get on them with the gun but my brother and I saw it. Wolves eat coyotes. Two huge dogs.  Chew on that!

[Shoots100]

Wolves eat everything, two wolves eat a lot of everything, so keep an eye out.

[Grouse]

If you have wolves, you have a problem.  It's illegal to shoot a wolf in NY.  I think they are federally protected everywhere.  They are prosecuting the guy in NY that shot one thinking it was a yote.  If you shoot one, you better keep it quiet.

[wolc123]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

If you have wolves, you have a problem.  It's illegal to shoot a wolf in NY.  I think they are federally protected everywhere.  They are prosecuting the guy in NY that shot one thinking it was a yote.  If you shoot one, you better keep it quiet.

Until NY state admits that they have wolves, it’s going to be an uphill battle expecting folks to not think they are just big coyotes. 
 

Combine that, with a high hunter density in most of the state, and it’s hard to imagine the wolf ever gaining much of a foothold here.  

[Doc]

16 hours ago, First-light said:

They weren't contradicting at all . They just have a new study that puts it right in front of you. I totally agree with this study then add in the predation  part and i'm fine with 1/3 of fawns make it. 

The quote that I was basing my comment on from this article was, " It's no wonder hunters blame Canis latrans for slaughtering little deer each spring and summer. Most all scientific studies over the past 30 years have documented predation, largely by coyotes, as the leading cause of whitetail fawn mortality."

And then this article adds: "But wait a sec … Predation may have less of an impact than we think, writes Justin Dion in this article posted to the National Deer Association's WEBSITE."

To me that is a contradiction of "most all scientific studies over the past 30 years"

 

[chrisw]

Predation is natural and healthy. I know people get butthurt when a coyote eats a fawn but its nature's design. Deer are not strictly for human use as many people seem to believe. If a coyote kills a fawn it's hunter outrage, but when a hunter shoots a fawn it's "doesn't get any better eating than that, congratulations." Coyotes are not the problem most people believe them to be, it's just an easy scapegoat for everything deer related it seems. Deer are in no danger of eradication, and coyotes will never be eradicated either, it's time to live with both. I'm not a coyote activist, I've shot and trapped plenty, but I'm also not uninformed and willing to fall into the old school mentality. Studies have debunked A LOT of what people used to believe through bar room chatter. Balance is the key, eradication is rarely ever the answer. Feel free to flame me, I don't care, we're well past demonizing animals for old campfire hysteria I'd like to think.

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[First-light]

3 hours ago, chrisw said:

Predation is natural and healthy. I know people get butthurt when a coyote eats a fawn but its nature's design. Deer are not strictly for human use as many people seem to believe. If a coyote kills a fawn it's hunter outrage, but when a hunter shoots a fawn it's "doesn't get any better eating than that, congratulations." Coyotes are not the problem most people believe them to be, it's just an easy scapegoat for everything deer related it seems. Deer are in no danger of eradication, and coyotes will never be eradicated either, it's time to live with both. I'm not a coyote activist, I've shot and trapped plenty, but I'm also not uninformed and willing to fall into the old school mentality. Studies have debunked A LOT of what people used to believe through bar room chatter. Balance is the key, eradication is rarely ever the answer. Feel free to flame me, I don't care, we're well past demonizing animals for old campfire hysteria I'd like to think.

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I think you are spot on. 

[Shoots100]

5 hours ago, chrisw said:

Predation is natural and healthy. I know people get butthurt when a coyote eats a fawn but its nature's design. Deer are not strictly for human use as many people seem to believe. If a coyote kills a fawn it's hunter outrage, but when a hunter shoots a fawn it's "doesn't get any better eating than that, congratulations." Coyotes are not the problem most people believe them to be, it's just an easy scapegoat for everything deer related it seems. Deer are in no danger of eradication, and coyotes will never be eradicated either, it's time to live with both. I'm not a coyote activist, I've shot and trapped plenty, but I'm also not uninformed and willing to fall into the old school mentality. Studies have debunked A LOT of what people used to believe through bar room chatter. Balance is the key, eradication is rarely ever the answer. Feel free to flame me, I don't care, we're well past demonizing animals for old campfire hysteria I'd like to think.

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I want coyote to be around, as they have their place in nature and being wile E, are a worthy opponent.

NY having a hunting season for them will guarantee their presence in the state and if they overpopulate and start killing the easy picking house pets, I'll keep getting calls to hunt them.  

 

[chrisw]

I want coyote to be around, as they have their place in nature and being wile E, are a worthy opponent.
NY having a hunting season for them will guarantee their presence in the state and if they overpopulate and start killing the easy picking house pets, I'll keep getting calls to hunt them.  
 

With or without a season they will always be around. I find them easy for people to hate because they're far smarter than most people are and we don't like that. I believe indian folklore put them as the "last animal on earth." I respect the hell out of them, they're beautiful, extremely smart and even their midnight chorus is pretty if you truly respect nature. They have their part, as we all do. It's a shame we hate what we don't understand so easily.

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[land 1]

20 hours ago, Grouse said:

If you have wolves, you have a problem.  It's illegal to shoot a wolf in NY.  I think they are federally protected everywhere.  They are prosecuting the guy in NY that shot one thinking it was a yote.  If you shoot one, you better keep it quiet.

where did u see that they are proscuting the guy? have never heard that

[land 1]

ok all articles I found said he  was not charged , at the time wolfs were not under federal protection , that has changed since, NY state advised since he thougt it was a coyote and at that time they did not believe there were wolfs in NY, and coyote season was open  he will not be charged

Edited July 11, 2023 by land 1

[Four Seasons]

Most people have never seen a real yote problem. Most do not have enough land to know what the habitat was before the problem became a problem. You will also never take care of a true yote problem in a state that has a season. A real yote problem can’t be fixed unless you start at the den and continues anytime every day of the year. 

[New York Hillbilly]

On 7/9/2023 at 10:36 PM, First-light said:

i'm fine with 1/3 of fawns make it. 

So is the car insurance industry. : )

1 hour ago, chrisw said:

I respect the hell out of them, they're beautiful, extremely smart and even their midnight chorus is pretty if you truly respect nature. They have their part, as we all do. It's a shame we hate what we don't understand so easily.

I can respect your enthusiastic appreciation for coyotes, and agree with your assessment of their intelligence. But, I think there are many, myself included, who don't share that same love. It is not for lack of understanding of coyotes, or lack of respect for nature. I would guess people have their own, well founded reason for not liking them. In my case, for years I have personally watched them cruising my fields for fawns. It is one of the reasons I let my field go wild and stopped haying them. I figured it made it safer for the fawns and nesting turkeys. I think it did help with the deer, but not so sure it made any difference with the turkeys. 

I also had them come in on my beagles several times while rabbit hunting, and one actually had them kill one of my beagles. I have several friends who faced the same problem while running rabbits with beagles. We all began running our beagles with bells on their collars to try to keep the coyotes at bay.

On a couple of occasions I had coyotes barking  at my big  female dog at dusk in our front yard, trying to lure her over to them, and I thankfully was there to call her back to the house. They will have one coyotes bark and act all playful to lure your dog close, and then others waiting behind and out of sight will bolt out to ambush your dog if it takes the bait. A dairy farmer neighbor once had a coyote trying to take his black lab down by its back leg, in his barnyard. Luckily, he got out there in time to run it off. 

I have heard neighbors complain of losing livestock to coyotes, but myself just got into chickens and have not had that issue so far. 

Without exaggeration my property and the surrounding area is thick with coyotes, and the eruption of several different packs all going off at the same time right behind my house I find hair raising, and certainly not pretty, at least to my ear. It would please me and my wife to no end, if one of the folks in my area who like to hunt them, by any means, would rid my property of every one of them.  Unfortunately, I know that is not realistic, and agree it is entirely possible coyotes like cockroaches will likely be that last critters on earth. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by New York Hillbilly
spelling

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, land 1 said:

ok all articles I found said he  was not charged , at the time wolfs were not under federal protection , that has changed since, NY state advised since he thougt it was a coyote and at that time they did not believe there were wolfs in NY, and coyote season was open  he will not be charged

Can you supply a link with that info?  Last I heard they were prosecuting because wolves are Federally protect all over the country.

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Grouse

[Grouse]

I don't mind yotes around, if there are few of them.  I want more deer around, and when there are lots of yotes there are few deer around.

So I think the idea is to keep the yote numbers way down and work on increasing the deer numbers, at least around here.  There certainly aren't enough deer around my area.  Not even close to being a problem.  So I will always look to eliminate any reason deer numbers are down.

[chrisw]

I can respect your enthusiastic appreciation for coyotes, and agree with your assessment of their intelligence. But, I think there are many, myself included, who don't share that same love. It is not for lack of understanding of coyotes, or lack of respect for nature. I would guess people have their own, well founded reason for not liking them. In my case, for years I have personally watched them cruising my fields for fawns. It is one of the reasons I let my field go wild and stopped haying them. I figured it made it safer for the fawns and nesting turkeys. I think it did help with the deer, but not so sure it made any difference with the turkeys. 
I also had them come in on my beagles several times while rabbit hunting, and one actually had them kill one of my beagles. I have several friends who faced the same problem while running rabbits with beagles. We all began running our beagles with bells on their collars to try to keep the coyotes at bay.
On a couple of occasions I had coyotes barking  at my big  female dog at dusk in our front yard, trying to lure her over to them, and I thankfully was there to call her back to the house. They will have one coyotes bark and act all playful to lure your dog close, and then others waiting behind and out of sight will bolt out to ambush your dog if it takes the bait. A dairy farmer neighbor once had a coyote trying to take his black lab down by its back leg, in his barnyard. Luckily, he got out there in time to run it off. 
I have heard neighbors complain of losing livestock to coyotes, but myself just got into chickens and have not had that issue so far. 
Without exaggeration my property and the surrounding area is thick with coyotes, and the eruption of several different packs all going off at the same time right behind my house I find hair raising, and certainly not pretty, at least to my ear. It would please me and my wife to no end, if one of the folks in my area who like to hunt them, by any means, would rid my property of every one of them.  Unfortunately, I know that is not realistic, and agree it is entirely possible coyotes like cockroaches will likely be that last critters on earth. 

Again, animals are animals. Coyotes are trying to survive the same as a tree blocking undergrowth. They are not malicious or have bad intentions. I'm not in "love" with coyotes, I don't like seeing a fawn eaten either but it is nature and nature has a better handle on things than man ever will. Anecdotal evidence is not science. Do coyotes cause issues at times? Sure. So do feral cats, beavers and raccoons. There are people out there who will cry wolf (no pun intended) because their "observations" are so different than seemingly anyone else's that certainly their problem must be greater than the average. It's easy to look out on a mountain range and think "what a peaceful place." When in reality everything is trying to kill everything else for its own survival, coyotes are no exception, neither are humans. To hate one species and glorify the others is not conservation. You don't have to like them, but you should respect them.

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[Grouse]

Since they are definitely a factor affecting deer populations, I have no issue with shooting them.  I can respect them, just like I respect sharks, but that does not mean I want them around me.  They have a place in the system, but they too can become overpopulated and cause problems.  And since they do not seem to have any problem surviving, I think I should be part of their struggle to survive.

[Doc]

Much like mosquitos and ticks, we have no choice but to accept their presence. There really is no natural population control for the critters other than hunters, trappers, and disease. But in all honesty, I have not seen where the deer population has suffered at all from growing coyote populations. In fact with deer hunter numbers and activity on the decline, perhaps another source of deer population control may be looked on quite favorably in the future. I guess my attitude is that they are just another furbearer to hunt and trap.

 

[land 1]

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

Can you supply a link with that info?  Last I heard they were prosecuting because wolves are Federally protect all over the country.

 

Just do a search on "Hunter NY Wolf Prosecuted" and at that particular time when it was shot they  were not under federal protection but that has changed and are once again federally protected. The wolf hide was seized but nothing criminal

[Shoots100]

Nature has a better handle on things than man ever will.

 Nature has no time constraints, but mankind does and that leads to overreaction when dealing with nature.

I've been hunting coyote all over for decades and in states that have no season for them, their numbers are better kept in check and not because people hate them.

Most of the places I get asked to hunt are homesteads that let the problem get out of control or are in areas that don't allow hunting.

Coyote are far from stupid and sometimes their too smart for their own good.

Those are the ones I like to hunt.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Shoots100

[First-light]

So yesterday while taking the dogs out a hawk swooped into my corn field and got a rabbit. It squealed for about 10 seconds really bad then nothing. I didn't think twice about getting a gun and shooting the hawk. Now if a yote had a deer in my yard I would run for the shot gun. There is no difference except the value of the deer to each of us.