Antler Restrictions - voluntary or otherwise

[Curmudgeon]

Have any studies been done to determine how the mandatory ARs affect the number of bucks harvested AFTER several years? Is it as high as when every buck with a 3" antler was legal?

 

Coonhunter - There are a lot of Amish in Edmeston. Have you seen any change in deer numbers that might be because of them? There was a separate thread on Amish. Some suggested they kill too many deer.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[nyantler]

Have any studies been done to determine how the mandatory ARs affect the number of bucks harvested AFTER several years? Is it as high as when every buck with a 3" antler was legal?

 

 

 

From DEC report to 2010

 

The number of 2.5+ year old bucks in the harvest has increased since implementation of ARs. However, the increase has not fully compensated for the reduction in yearling harvest, and total buck take has generally remained >20% below pre-AR levels. WMU 3H was the only unit where total buck take has returned to the level immediately prior to AR.

[Five Seasons]

I personally won't shoot anything smaller than a six. On the land I hunt but others shoot whatever walks by

 

not always points. I've shot some small basket 8's and some big 6's. I think in NY it's pretty easy to tell a 2.5 from a 1.5. At my stage in my life I try for 2.5's or bigger and if I need meat I'll stick a doe. My father has been doing it much longer and he's at the 3.5 or 4.5 only rule. That's why I'll continue to say let the youth shoot whatever

 

I don't like points. Too hard. I do like Mississippi's system. Allows for the small points but mature deer.

 

[bubba]

I would challenge anyone who thinks that statewide ar is the answer to come and hunt where I do.  I get a dmp every 4 or 5 years as preference points are needed.  So far this year I have seen 3 deer 2 does and a fawn.   it is very easy to say let the small bucks go and stick a doe, if you can get a handful of dmp's to do so.  Then you get the crowd who is also against planting a plot or two to keep the deer in the area and you get called a baiter.  Anyone who wants to come and show me how it is done, come on up. You can stay at camp for free, I will feed you and hunt away.   Just a bunch of armchair quarterbacks. I personally have never cared about covering my wall with antlers just to stroke my ego.  I would take a large bodied 6 over a smaller bodies 8 anytime.  

Edited November 13, 2014 by bubba

[josephmrtn]

self imposed limits have to be followed by all hunters in the area or they don't work. I always say let the youth shoot what they can though.

 

It's a heated topic but mostly because we're all so passionate about it. Not a bad thing. Depending on the size of your property all you can really control is your land. Make it appealing to deer. Have some sanctuary bedding areas that you don't hunt. Some good food sources (apples, food plots etc) and water. Keep it logged to avoid the hard woods that deer avoid when the guns go off. that can help hold them.

Not entirely true belo, in our area im the only one who has "self imposed limits" and yet im seeing bigger deer every year, the neighbors are happy to keep shooting spikes and im happy to keep my collection of 8pts growing on our farm even tho i havn't killed one yet The thing that made the difference was kicking all the #### Poachers off our land! But lets save that for another thread

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I don't like points. Too hard. I do like Mississippi's system. Allows for the small points but mature deer.

 

 

 

I have never seen a mature buck in NY that had small points, in size or number. With rare exceptions you aren't going to see a mature 4 point or a mature spike...lol. Actually a mature 6 is about on par with Hens teeth.

 

Mississippi's rules would still not protect many many 1.5's in NY, especially WNY. Everything else considered if you want to shoot a deer that is over 1.5 the BODY is the best indicator. Study the characteristics, spend time comparing deer in the off season. Once you start to see the differences it sticks with you. There will always be the spit second decisions and the ooops that will happen because things can happen in a spit second, another reason not a fan of mandatory.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Five Seasons]

I have never seen a mature buck in NY that had small points, in size or number. With rare exceptions you aren't going to see a mature 4 point or a mature spike...lol. Actually a mature 6 is about on par with Hens teeth.

 

Mississippi's rules would still not protect many many 1.5's in NY, especially WNY. Everything else considered if you want to shoot a deer that is over 1.5 the BODY is the best indicator. Study the characteristics, spend time comparing deer in the off season. Once you start to see the differences it sticks with you. There will always be the spit second decisions and the ooops that will happen because things can happen in a spit second, another reason not a fan of mandatory.

 

there is no perfect system of course, only those that help. I guess my stance is that there is no perfect systems. I've seen some incredible 4 points. Some because of broken tines and others just have that genetic. I just think that something is better than nothing. Below are some of my own examples

 

a young 8

 

and what we believe to be a 2.5 year old 6.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Belo, did you jaw age them? That bow buck though is a perfect example of what I was trying to describe earlier. Tough to tell on the ground like that but I would believe it was 1.5, great deer. If we decide we are going to take deer like that, what is the difference, really, in taking that one and taking a spike? (I know, I know, 6 points).

I know what you mean about broken points. can really put a monkey wrench in the equation. One of the biggest bucks my Father ever shot, we will forever wonder about. Last weekend of gun, snow, her comes this monster doe, bang!!. I go to follow it up and there is lies. a Monster and even that late in the season, it scaled and 196# dressed. Had horn. both broken at an 1' to 1-1/2" long but the bases looked like Coke cans. Wish I saw him with his antlers on.

[jjb4900]

they're working wonders in my area, instead of a few small 6pts, 4pts and spikes, now we have a lot.......

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Not entirely true belo, in our area im the only one who has "self imposed limits" and yet im seeing bigger deer every year, the neighbors are happy to keep shooting spikes and im happy to keep my collection of 8pts growing on our farm even tho i havn't killed one yet The thing that made the difference was kicking all the #### Poachers off our land! But lets save that for another thread

There was a big 9pt taken within a mile of your place just this morning.. I could name at least 10 guys in your area that will not take anything less than a mature buck. You have a handful in that area that ruins a great hunting area for all involved.  Wives and kids tags. Unlimited bucks. You name it and they have it covered.

[Five Seasons]

Belo, did you jaw age them? That bow buck though is a perfect example of what I was trying to describe earlier. Tough to tell on the ground like that but I would believe it was 1.5, great deer. If we decide we are going to take deer like that, what is the difference, really, in taking that one and taking a spike? (I know, I know, 6 points).

I know what you mean about broken points. can really put a monkey wrench in the equation. One of the biggest bucks my Father ever shot, we will forever wonder about. Last weekend of gun, snow, her comes this monster doe, bang!!. I go to follow it up and there is lies. a Monster and even that late in the season, it scaled and 196# dressed. Had horn. both broken at an 1' to 1-1/2" long but the bases looked like Coke cans. Wish I saw him with his antlers on.

 

I would most likely not shoot that 8 at this point in my life, but like you said he would be legal and the spike would not be. Both 1.5 year olds...

 

Similar comments to broken racks can be make for half racks. I saw a hunting show last night where it was a late Ohio hunt and 180 class buck had already shed his antlers. I don't know the rules but is he now illegal?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

If they have an antlerless tag in NY the buck that shed is legal on that permit. A broken one is legal too al long as they aren't 3" long.

 

personally I wouldn't have an issue taking a half rack if he was an older buck. the rack isn't what make him any wiser. You still got to beat him on his own turf IMO

[coonhunter]

Curmudgen, we have Amish on the other side of the road. We have had no issues other than a few trespassing incidences. They did not allow us on their land for any reason, and the favor was returned. After a very cold start to neighborly relations, it has become much better. This year I helped an Amish boy out with an old set-up of mine, and he was able to kill a big, fat doe. He is a lifer for bow hunting now. They do a ton of shooting the first couple Saturdays, and then they go back to work. I have heard of other areas where the deer seem to disappear in a few years when they move to the area, but hasn't been an issue here.

[YFKI1983]

I hunt 4o. They put the restriction in about 3 years ago and the last 2 years I've seen some pretty nice bucks. A bunch on camera and a couple while hunting. Before that, all spikes and small bucks. I don't know if it's antler restrictions, me getting a little better or just getting luckier.

My problem with it is (as someone mentioned before). I love the meat but I can only get a doe tag every 2-3 years. So i have to let whatever smaller bucks pass and all the does...too much tag soup. I think if they do go with statewide restrictions they should start opening up the doe permits more. I don't have a son yet but when I do id love for him to get into hunting. I don't know if a kid could get excited knowing they have to let every deer walk.

[ItalianHunter5]

We're using our money for a buck tag so obviously we should be able to shoot whatever makes us happy. It could be a spike for a hunter like myself, or wait all season for a "shooter" that may never come by. Voluntary is the answer.

[jjb4900]

We're using our money for a buck tag so obviously we should be able to shoot whatever makes us happy. It could be a spike for a hunter like myself, or wait all season for a "shooter" that may never come by. Voluntary is the answer.

or buck tags in mandatory antler restriction zones should be deeply discounted.....why should we pay the same and have restrictions on our tags while others still have a free for all and can shoot any legal buck on their tag?

[burmjohn]

or buck tags in mandatory antler restriction zones should be deeply discounted.....why should we pay the same and have restrictions on our tags while others still have a free for all and can shoot any legal buck on their tag?

Same reason DMP tags vary by area. Every area has to be managed differently.

[jjb4900]

Same reason DMP tags vary by area. Every area has to be managed differently.

true, but I'm not forced to buy one if I chose not to in order to go deer hunting........and unless I'm mistaken, DEC said AR's are more of a hunter request than something that is needed for sound deer management.

[burmjohn]

true, but I'm not forced to buy one if I chose not to in order to go deer hunting........and unless I'm mistaken, DEC said AR's are more of a hunter request than something that is needed for sound deer management.

Yeah the DEC has made incorrect statements in the past.

[jjb4900]

Yeah the DEC has made incorrect statements in the past.

they should mix it up a little in those areas, you get a doe tag as your regular tag and have to pay extra for a chance at a buck tag..........now that would be interesting.

[Five Seasons]

I would challenge anyone who thinks that statewide ar is the answer to come and hunt where I do.  I get a dmp every 4 or 5 years as preference points are needed.  So far this year I have seen 3 deer 2 does and a fawn.   it is very easy to say let the small bucks go and stick a doe, if you can get a handful of dmp's to do so.  Then you get the crowd who is also against planting a plot or two to keep the deer in the area and you get called a baiter.  Anyone who wants to come and show me how it is done, come on up. You can stay at camp for free, I will feed you and hunt away.   Just a bunch of armchair quarterbacks. I personally have never cared about covering my wall with antlers just to stroke my ego.  I would take a large bodied 6 over a smaller bodies 8 anytime.  

 

just like dmp's ARs should be based on zone/wmu. notice the ARs i posted from Mississippi are different as the delta generally grows bigger deer so their ARs are greater.

 

 

We're using our money for a buck tag so obviously we should be able to shoot whatever makes us happy. It could be a spike for a hunter like myself, or wait all season for a "shooter" that may never come by. Voluntary is the answer.

 

economics 101. supply and demand. shoot too many small bucks and some hunters give up and stop buying tags. grow big bucks and more hunters buy tags and even your out-of-state sales go up. No better examples then the mid-west for your proof.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Belo

[jjb4900]

just like dmp's ARs should be based on zone/wmu. notice the ARs i posted from Mississippi are different as the delta generally grows bigger deer so their ARs are greater.

 

 

 

economics 101. supply and demand. shoot too many small bucks and some hunters give up and stop buying tags. grow big bucks and more hunters buy tags and even your out-of-state sales go up. No better examples then the mid-west for your proof.

so far I know two hunters who no longer hunt due to antler restrictions, older guys who routinely made the trip to NY from FL every November to deer hunt.......I'm willing to bet it'll discourage a lot of new hunters and older hunters who have to pass on what they would have been thrilled to kill before we see a turn around of guys running to NY and dumping money into the economy because of the monster deer that may or may not eventually be around.............just my thoughts.

[Doc]

Seems logical that anything that causes frustration and failure on the overwhelming portion of antlered deer will result in more bucks and older bucks. So the question gets to be, do you want regulations that frustrate hunters. How far do you want to go with mandating frustration? 2 points on a side? .... 3 points on a side .... 5 points on a side?  Just keep upping the restrictions until even more hunters quit? To my way of thinking, a hunter who holds back on taking yearlings because it is their idea, probably is achieving older deer and also not being frustrated because the restriction is his own self imposed limitation. We really are getting regulation-happy these days. It seems to be everybody's answer to everything......Pass a law.

[bowaholic]

so far I know two hunters who no longer hunt due to antler restrictions, older guys who routinely made the trip to NY from FL every November to deer hunt.......I'm willing to bet it'll discourage a lot of new hunters and older hunters who have to pass on what they would have been thrilled to kill before we see a turn around of guys running to NY and dumping money into the economy because of the monster deer that may or may not eventually be around.............just my thoughts.

there is plenty of other places to hunt in NY that don't have AR's.  If they quit because of the ARs they in my opinion didn't have a passion for hunting here.

[jjb4900]

there is plenty of other places to hunt in NY that don't have AR's.  If they quit because of the ARs they in my opinion didn't have a passion for hunting here.

these guys are in their 70's, I don't think they have the resources or are in the best of health to go out and scout new places.........let me know when you get to that age how you would feel about it...and let's not bank on passionate hunters keeping the hunting tradition going in this state, my guess is the amount of casual hunters far outnumbers the amount of truly passionate / die hard deer hunters.

Edited November 13, 2014 by jjb4900