Retrieving Deer Question

[DirtTime]

well, I would guess that if you stumble upon a dead deer and feel like sticking your tag on it you can? not sure why you would but to some the meat is more important then the kill....

I wouldn't. If I came across someone tracking I would tell them where it was. But,, that's just me.

[jjb4900]

I wouldn't. If I came across someone tracking I would tell them where it was. But,, that's just me.

oh, I'm not talking about taking a deer that was freshly shot and running over and throwing a tag on it to claim it....

[DirtTime]

I have yet to come across a fresh deer that died of "natural causes" in the woods.

[jjb4900]

I have yet to come across a fresh deer that died of "natural causes" in the woods.

I've found deer that were killed by hunters and were still there the next day and eventually wound up as predator food....stuff happens. But by the time you find out that no one is coming for them it's too late to salvage.

[jjb4900]

when I was with Deer Search and had my tracking dogs, I once tracked a hunters deer right to the other guy who was dragging it out......he apparently watched the deer die in front of him in the morning and at the end of the day climbed down from his stand and tagged it. He gladly turned it over to the guy who shot it.....I don't think there were any ill intentions on his part other than not wanting to see it go to waste.

[Paula]

Walk away

Edited October 29, 2015 by Paula

[WNYBuckHunter]

I found it hard to believe the DEC is going to respond by email and tell you it's legal to tag a deer you didn't shoot.

 

What happens when you report the Deer kill? Wouldn't you be lying ?

 

I don't think the DEC cares if you tag a deer you didn't shoot, and I think it happens plenty of times. But that doesn't make it legal. 

 

Just my opinion

 

You arent reporting that YOU killed it, you are reporting that it was killed. I dont think they are going to email something that isnt legal.

[WNYBuckHunter]

well, I would guess that if you stumble upon a dead deer and feel like sticking your tag on it you can? not sure why you would but to some the meat is more important then the kill....

 

Thats another situation I have been involved with. We were hunting state land,someone shot a doe, it ran and ended up dying right in front of my buddy that was in a stand. He left the deer and waited for someone to come along tracking it. Noone did in 3 hours. We went looking for the guy, then went back to camp and called an ECO. He told us to tag it if we wanted it. My buddy hadnt gotten a deer in his freezer yet, so he tagged it and took it with him.

[shawnhu]

So Joe Landowner that doesn't hunt, walks out onto his property and finds a deer that just died. what can he do legally?

I walk onto my property and find a recently dead deer and I do hunt, what can I do legally?

Shoot the dead deer and tag it!

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[Doc]

See, that's why I use fishing arrows to hunt deer. If they go into posted property, I can drag them back without ever setting foot on that property.

[GreeneHunter]

See, that's why I use fishing arrows to hunt deer. If they go into posted property, I can drag them back without ever setting foot on that property.

LOL

[Five Seasons]

Thats another situation I have been involved with. We were hunting state land,someone shot a doe, it ran and ended up dying right in front of my buddy that was in a stand. He left the deer and waited for someone to come along tracking it. Noone did in 3 hours. We went looking for the guy, then went back to camp and called an ECO. He told us to tag it if we wanted it. My buddy hadnt gotten a deer in his freezer yet, so he tagged it and took it with him.

 

just out of curiosity, did you reverse blood trail it all? Makes me wonder if someone didn't put in enough effort or if it just didn't bleed.

[Jmny]

You buy a license that gives you the ability to shoot a deer during season(s). Part of the license ( the harvest tag) also gives you the right to possess ( harvest) a dead deer. In 99.9 % of the cases it is the same person ID# is on both tags.

Two scenarios:

1) you shoot a deer that goes onto private land, upon requesting permission, it is denied. What's happens? More than likely nature will take its course. Other wild animals, birds, insect will live off of it. You might consider it a waste but Mother Nature doesn't . Or the land owner or friend of his can legally take possession with a proper filled out harvest tag. Or the landowner might illegally take the deer without a harvest tag. How do you know which takes place? You don't! So calling the DEC is basically a waste of their time. The only thing that they could address is the taking of the deer without a harvest tag by the landowner. And how would they establish reasonable grounds to enter private land? Your suspicions ? that he will actually spend his time trying to track down a wounded deer. Remember. He apparently has no interest in venison or hunting verified the fact he didn't want to spend less than $50 to Purchase his own license. So the only direct evdence you could have of this landowner possessing an illegal deer is something you saw or recorded while trespassing on the farmers land?

Suggestions acquire permission in advance of the hunting season with adjoining land. Then restrict your hunting area to the areas of land that you have neighboring permission to retrieve. Common courtesy would be to place a call to the owner of the land and advise him that the necessity to enter his land to retrieve a deer has occurred.

Now your hunting state land, shot a deer but don't believe you actually made good kill shot, so you decide to wait 4-8 hours before tracking your shot deer. Another hunter in his stand( ground, tree etc,) sees the deer die within 100 yards of his stand. He waits 3 hours with apparently no hunter pursuing the blood trail of the deer. So he decides to not let the deer go to waste( nature take its course). And goes over to the deer and as required by law begins to complete the harvest tag to legally possess the deer. After doing so, you finally catch up with your deer, and inform him that you shot the deer four hours ago. What would you do? Realize that you didn't find your deer until he has already filed out his harvest permit for the deer. So, to be a nice guy and give the deer to you, negating his ability to take a deer of is own( harvest tag all ready used). Awful big price to pay for not wanting the deer to go to waste . So many hunters give up tracking a poorly shot deer to early.

Possible solutions to avoid this circumstance::

practice with the weapon you choose to hunt.

Discipline yourself to take only kill shots ( shot that you decide not to pursue tracking for 3-4 hours really is not a great kill shot. To many hunters are influeneced by these Tv shows that review the shots on the camera to see the location of the shot. And then make a decision whether to track or back out and track 4-6 hours later or the next day. UNDERSTAND they have that Liberty to do so. They are hunting private land of probably 300-1000 acres or more. The only thing they have to worry about is the weather dissipating the blood trail or coyotes getting to the deer

My questimate would be 80-90 % of the hunters don't own a parcel of land that size that they hunt..

So, if you think my thought process is incorrect, it will only take a minute to verify with the DEC. Realize that this is only my educated( limited) opinion. What I believe to be the correct application of the hunting licence and the harvest permit. If you think it is wrong. please submit name and number of DEC contact that instructed you that this is not the case.

I'm stating this is a reasonable suggestion, but to verify with DEC, before accepting as factual. Your negative comments would attempt to mislead the followers of this thread as FACTUAL information without the courtesy of supplying either the location or person/ # where the factual information can be verified.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Jmny

[WNYBuckHunter]

just out of curiosity, did you reverse blood trail it all? Makes me wonder if someone didn't put in enough effort or if it just didn't bleed.

 

Yes, thats what I meant by we went looking for the person. It was shot a little far back and traveled about 500 yards, but it bled more than enough for a successful track.

[bubba]

I worked doubles all weekend.  I spoke with our local region 6 captain today.  We have been emailing back and forth.  When I get the answer from the legal dept, I will post it.  BTW the captain said emailing legal questions to the people who just answer the emails, is not a reliable way.  he suggested contacting an officer, not office personnel.  

 

 

Mr. Merrifield, I have referred your question to our legal department.  They will put together a written response for you.  It may take a little while for our legal staff to draft your answer. 

 

Your question does not have a simple cut & dry legal answer.  There are several variables that need to be taken into consideration.  There are also ethical concerns that might need to be considered.  I appreciate your patience while we work on answering your question. 

 

Captain Todd Richards

NYS Environmental Conservation Police

 

"Richards, Todd J (DEC)" <[email protected]> wrote:

Your question may be easier to explain via a telephone conversation.  If you would like to give me a call, my phone number is (315) 785-2231. 

Captain Todd Richards
NYS Environmental Conservation Police


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2015 4:06 PM
To: dec.sm.information.R6
Subject: Question

Hello I have a question regarding a scenario at my hunting camp.  I own land in Parishville NY.  My property borders state land.  A person on state land shoots  a deer or bear and it comes onto my property.  If I deny them access to retrieve the animal, can I legally tag it since I
did not hunt it or harvest it?   Any input would be appreciated.

Thank you

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Edited November 3, 2015 by bubba

[SteveB]

I would think they should only be concerned with the legal aspects.

Ethics only considered as they apply to the law.

[bubba]

I agree but to get the correct answer from the legal dept I can take the ethical lecture too

[Caveman]

I'm not sure a cop is the best source of legal info.  One of my favorite professors once said "don't take legal advice from a cop any quicker than you would take dental advice from an auto mechanic."  Sure, a cop can offer insight into how such a situation might be handled in the field, but that's a often a poor indication of the correct answer as a matter of law.  Just a thought.

 

EDIT: Just saw that your question is being sent to the legal dept.  If that means administrative attorneys, I retract the above.  

Edited November 3, 2015 by Wildcats160

[jjb4900]

I'm not sure a cop is the best source of legal info.  One of my favorite professors once said "don't take legal advice from a cop any quicker than you would take dental advice from an auto mechanic."  Sure, a cop can offer insight into how such a situation might be handled in the field, but that's a often a poor indication of the correct answer as a matter of law.  Just a thought.

 

EDIT: Just saw that your question is being sent to the legal dept.  If that means administrative attorneys, I retract the above.  

yeah, but the cop's the one who's gonna be writing the ticket or applying the handcuff's...not sure I would write them totally off...you'll  get one who will try to mediate and solve the problem without any further action, and the next will just write the ticket or make the arrest...either way is 100% right.

Edited November 3, 2015 by jjb4900

[bubba]

But the office staff who answers email are certainly not reliable

[Jmny]

Interesting question and I appreciate the DEC assistance in getting a legal response.

But I'd like to attempt a response based on my beliefs and knowledge of the law( which probably is very limited), see how far off my train of thought actually is.

I would say that if the owner or a friend of the owner has a valid carcass tag they may harvest the animal. The harvest (carcass) tag validates the person being in possession of the animal legally. The back tag part of the license would allow a person to hunt (shoot) an animal.

Normally the person that kills the animal harvests ( remove from the woods) the animal. But in this example I believe the landowner or his friend with a legal

carcass (harvest) tag would meet the legal requirements to possess the animal.

Might have to eat my words, But it won't be the first time.

[bubba]

As explained to me, they did not hunt the deer. If that was the case anyone could tag a deer someone velse took just because they have a legal carcass tag. I could shoot a deer and let anyone I chose tag it because they have a legal tag.

[jjb4900]

As explained to me, they did not hunt the deer. If that was the case anyone could tag a deer someone velse took just because they have a legal carcass tag. I could shoot a deer and let anyone I chose tag it because they have a legal tag.

I'm going out on a limb and guess they could grant permission on a case by case basis, but to just put out a blanket "yeah, you can tag any deer you want" probably isn't the everyday answer.......but I could be wrong.

[Doc]

There's a problem with relying on personal conversations with ECOs or telephone conversations. Neither provide you with a permanent written record as to what you were told. It is amazing how memories of conversations can change or fail when you need to explain where you got the idea that something was legal. It is also amazing how two people of authority can have contradictory answers on the same law. Heck, even judges and such can have varying opinions and interpretations of the same law. So, I am not sure how binding it would be or how much good it may actually do, but I would think if you had a printed response that showed that you did due diligence in trying to find an answer and tried to abide by official interpretations, it would have to go a long ways in helping your case. If you have a recollection of a conversation that cannot be backed up, there's no doubt you would be officially screwed at court.

[Jmny]

There in is the ethics/ sportsmanship of the deer hunter.

Place yourself in the position of the DEC officer/ or any law enforcement officer. You receive a call from hunter A stating that he shot a deer and hunter B tagged it with his carcass( harvest) tag. Let's assume hunter B lies and says he shot it. How do you as a dec/ law enforcement officer determine who is telling the truth? Be realistic, The DEC/ law enforcement officer isn't going to attempt to research the path th deer took or the areas that both you a hunter B were supposedly standing when shots were fired. Maybe conduct an autopsy to see which type of broadhead or bullet was the kill shot, and hopefully both hunter A&B were using different ones

So, you see the reason that I believe the carcass ( harvest) tag is the determining factor. This mandates that the prospective hunter makes a good kill shot on the deer. If you did, the need to wait more than 15-30 minutes should be unnecessary to track.. It's bad enough some of these cowboys that take running shots at deer with guns, but you know some do the same with their arrows.

Bottom line. If it was me,as the officer, possession would be determined by the carcass(harvest) tag. I hesitate to use these words but it " makes common sense"

Take goodness, for the 99.9 % of ethical hunters In the woods.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Jmny