Anti xbow question

[gjs4]

I can't take any more deer than any other year. Same amt of tags just a slightly different weapon....and who cares what I use...it shouldn't matter if it ethicly kills the target animal....some want high power bb guns I don't support that but that's another topic...I support more hunters in this sport....I support right to chose how you take your game....I support anyone who chooses a xbow rifle or inline just as much as anyone else....getting close enough to kill any target animal is hard enough ...so unless magicly I'm going to get more tags the deer pop will not fluctuate much...Especially bc the archery class will be REQUIRED that alone will stop many that were out last year. The dec don't want numbers as low as possible otherwise I'd get a tag for my house and I can't (3 pref required) they want numbers low where the pop is high. They are pushing this voluntary AR all over state for past 3 years...they can only do so much especially when guys are fighting about xbows snares and other pointless fights....if we all quit fighting dumb stuff and worked together on pressing issues maybe they get something right

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Edit...BTW never noticed your avatar...sweet pic if the trapped yote my 5 yr old got to experience that for first time this year....

That's my point- you're following tag numbers not actual deer numbers. You hunt in an area with no deer of course they can't kill what's there. You're point on separation holds some merit - your zone and area is nothing like the west. When you have the dec making up population numbers, handing out 60000 dmps in regions and you have a Hunter saturated area the addition of a gun Hunter derived weapon is a totally different deal. Too many closed minded folks think convenience in weapon or their entitlement- not that deer are an animal and resource....let alone one that's easily depleted. Spend one week in the woods as a vertical bow archer and your crusade here would've never surfaced.

As for the yotes my kids too. Then again showed them how a trap won't break your hand and how coyote start by eating the hams of a live animal- nothing is fair in this world but being uneducated is a choice.

Just remember that great force that I you're praising for strides w xbows and doe numbers says yotes have a negligible impact on the herd. Kool Aid tastes different now doesn't it?

[G-Man]

That's my point- you're following tag numbers not actual deer numbers. You hunt in an area with no deer of course they can't kill what's there. You're point on separation holds some merit - your zone and area is nothing like the west. When you have the dec making up population numbers, handing out 60000 dmps in regions and you have a Hunter saturated area the addition of a gun Hunter derived weapon is a totally different deal. Too many closed minded folks think convenience in weapon or their entitlement- not that deer are an animal and resource....let alone one that's easily depleted. Spend one week in the woods as a vertical bow archer and your crusade here would've never surfaced.

As for the yotes my kids too. Then again showed them how a trap won't break your hand and how coyote start by eating the hams of a live animal- nothing is fair in this world but being uneducated is a choice.

Just remember that great force that I you're praising for strides w xbows and doe numbers says yotes have a negligible impact on the herd. Kool Aid tastes different now doesn't it?

The actual result is only 20% of doe tags are filled, the question is why? how many doe are passed up by hunters waiting for a buck or people they get the tags report a harvest when no harvest occurs because they are against killing doe so dec harvest no become inflated so they is sure less tags, the brown and down mentality isn't a bad thing in areas of high numbers, even people that can shoot a doe sat out 1st to week in a doe area because they didn't want the temptation of passing a nice buck.. but they spout off passing up deer to let them grow, guess what if you pass a 3 yr old they get older as well and bigger, not just yearlings..

[stoneam2006]

That's my point- you're following tag numbers not actual deer numbers. You hunt in an area with no deer of course they can't kill what's there. You're point on separation holds some merit - your zone and area is nothing like the west. When you have the dec making up population numbers, handing out 60000 dmps in regions and you have a Hunter saturated area the addition of a gun Hunter derived weapon is a totally different deal. Too many closed minded folks think convenience in weapon or their entitlement- not that deer are an animal and resource....let alone one that's easily depleted. Spend one week in the woods as a vertical bow archer and your crusade here would've never surfaced.

As for the yotes my kids too. Then again showed them how a trap won't break your hand and how coyote start by eating the hams of a live animal- nothing is fair in this world but being uneducated is a choice.

Just remember that great force that I you're praising for strides w xbows and doe numbers says yotes have a negligible impact on the herd. Kool Aid tastes different now doesn't it?

I've been vert hunting sense 14 and was in 3rd leagues with my dad at 12 I love archery and for me that includes xbow...my dad can't draw a compound anymore not bc he's old or disabled but for other medical reasons that make it not worth the problems it could have....personally I am trying to save to buy the new no cam Matthew's htr this year even of full inclusion...but some spots some days I will have my xbow....my dad will always have his xbow and I want nothing more than for him to get out in the begging of Oct when the weather is nice and it's more comfortable and the only way that happens is xbow inclusion....

My kid just moved to setting 1.5s on his own witch is real cool first time he caught his hand you would have thought he was dying lol now it's no big deal to him....

I don't bite into the coyote destroying the herd kool-aid....they have a little impact but then again I'm not in a area with a huge population out of control so I haven't experienced what some here have....

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[stoneam2006]

The actual result is only 20% of doe tags are filled, the question is why? how many doe are passed up by hunters waiting for a buck or people they get the tags report a harvest when no harvest occurs because they are against killing doe so dec harvest no become inflated so they is sure less tags, the brown and down mentality isn't a bad thing in areas of high numbers, even people that can shoot a doe sat out 1st to week in a doe area because they didn't want the temptation of passing a nice buck.. but they spout off passing up deer to let them grow, guess what if you pass a 3 yr old they get older as well and bigger, not just yearlings..

I imagine it's alot of tag holders don't put in the time some of us do or don't care to....I also think some dmp are taken by people with no desire to take doe just to stop someone else from getting it..

Personally last season or season before that I'd have to look at book....anyway I shot a doe 5 min into my day on some stateland in the doe only area in the fingerlakes went back out spent all day and shot another one and donated both....I'm a hunter I love the outdoors I hunt for meat for me and others and love the chase....some guys just want bone on the wall and don't help the dec when they ask for it and send wonder why crazy rules come up

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[Five Seasons]

The actual result is only 20% of doe tags are filled, the question is why? how many doe are passed up by hunters waiting for a buck or people they get the tags report a harvest when no harvest occurs because they are against killing doe so dec harvest no become inflated so they is sure less tags, the brown and down mentality isn't a bad thing in areas of high numbers, even people that can shoot a doe sat out 1st to week in a doe area because they didn't want the temptation of passing a nice buck.. but they spout off passing up deer to let them grow, guess what if you pass a 3 yr old they get older as well and bigger, not just yearlings..

A hunter shouldn't be punished or criticized for not shooting doe, or if he shoots a small buck etc. as long as it's legal. Like many bow hunters I will harvest a doe or 2 during gun or muzzleloader. I prefer not to disrupt my stands or shoot a doe in warmer weather or the expense of a broken carbon arrow and an expensive rage head. A dead doe is a dead doe irregardless of the season she's harvested in.

Opening day gun 2015

Edited April 2, 2016 by Belo

[gjs4]

The actual result is only 20% of doe tags are filled, the question is why? how many doe are passed up by hunters waiting for a buck or people they get the tags report a harvest when no harvest occurs because they are against killing doe so dec harvest no become inflated so they is sure less tags, the brown and down mentality isn't a bad thing in areas of high numbers, even people that can shoot a doe sat out 1st to week in a doe area because they didn't want the temptation of passing a nice buck.. but they spout off passing up deer to let them grow, guess what if you pass a 3 yr old they get older as well and bigger, not just yearlings..

Hunting and area is pressure there, your path in and your downwind plume. Killing a deer leaves even more residual scent, especially in light of an arrow hit deer running into thicker cover often. Doe bedding areas become chase phase prime areas at the start of November. Pressure is displacement of deer- why this crossbow thing bugs the heck out of me is crossbows are more like guns than vertical bows and their users will hunt the same way (let alone the recovery and safety factor).

The state can't manage budgets and we both can be rest assured they can't do it for deer/Hunter numbers. Note where the big doe push areas are and how they relate to urban and infrastructure layout.

[gjs4]

I imagine it's alot of tag holders don't put in the time some of us do or don't care to....I also think some dmp are taken by people with no desire to take doe just to stop someone else from getting it..

Personally last season or season before that I'd have to look at book....anyway I shot a doe 5 min into my day on some stateland in the doe only area in the fingerlakes went back out spent all day and shot another one and donated both....I'm a hunter I love the outdoors I hunt for meat for me and others and love the chase....some guys just want bone on the wall and don't help the dec when they ask for it and send wonder why crazy rules come up

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The dec needs lots of help alright. Picture a woman on a shopping spree without knowing her bank account balance.

They're following PA to save the woods and running our herd into the ground. More weapons- more people- more kills early- less satisfaction for deer movement- orange army driving at sunup in November. Kill em all.

[gjs4]

I've been vert hunting sense 14 and was in 3rd leagues with my dad at 12 I love archery and for me that includes xbow...my dad can't draw a compound anymore not bc he's old or disabled but for other medical reasons that make it not worth the problems it could have....personally I am trying to save to buy the new no cam Matthew's htr this year even of full inclusion...but some spots some days I will have my xbow....my dad will always have his xbow and I want nothing more than for him to get out in the begging of Oct when the weather is nice and it's more comfortable and the only way that happens is xbow inclusion....

My kid just moved to setting 1.5s on his own witch is real cool first time he caught his hand you would have thought he was dying lol now it's no big deal to him....

I don't bite into the coyote destroying the herd kool-aid....they have a little impact but then again I'm not in a area with a huge population out of control so I haven't experienced what some here have....

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Your dad, kid or disabled neighbor aren't my pariah. The average joe who has a gun season starting during chase phase, running the same length as archery season, is the issue. We do not need more of that mentality in the woods or altering the herd structure or harvest.

Glad you enjoy archery, and your avatar has my think you enjoy older deer.... This conversation is about preserving that. All of these jackasses that claim they're the same are wrong and if we want to make it equal opportunity let's follow ohios one and done plan...but then all of the cross I advocates would sing a new song.

Cool on your kiddo w steel.

I would guess the yotes take out over 50% of the fawn crop annually. This was nowhere near the case 5 or 10 years ago. They're gaining on the predator side of the cycle. When our nasty snow gets an ice crust they're on adults. We also have had some brutal winters. I believe with all my heart they're doing the dec s dirty over harvest work and are the ideal apex predator for such a small parcel environment as wNY.

[G-Man]

A hunter shouldn't be punished or criticized for not shooting doe, or if he shoots a small buck etc. as long as it's legal. Like many bow hunters I will harvest a doe or 2 during gun or muzzleloader. I prefer not to disrupt my stands or shoot a doe in warmer weather or the expense of a broken carbon arrow and an expensive rage head. A dead doe is a dead doe irregardless of the season she's harvested in.

Opening day gun 2015

I never said punish them ,I simple stated a fact that people pass does when they have a tag in their pocket for them, that mentality needs to change especially in high deer population areas. Waiting for a buck that may be following a doe is a common practice, as is waiting till.late season to take a doe as they will bring in the huck when they come into heat.

Proper.management will allow for a shorter more intense rut as sex ratios will be closer than they are.. bucks don't have to move if 30 does 100 feet from then Com into heat.

What I am saying , hunters, all hunters trophy hunters included need to take doe at every possibility when they have a tag for them. If your truly into conservation and habitat management you understand this, a few years of effort and the hunting gets better!

I accomplished this with a few neighbors, in the early.90's we saw 30 to 40 doe in a herd, bucks were uncommon, several years of double digit doe harvest using permits and more bucks seem to chase harder to find doe, hearing a buck fight in the wood is now almost common. The body weights of.all deer increased by 20 to 25 lbs in all age groups. Today a pop and young buck is always taken and many more seen, and a possibility of 140 in plus racks have shown up , as bigger deer are seen the hunters volantary pass 2 and 3 year old looking for 140 plus bucks and 2 of 3 years one is killed.

Management is a group effort...

[G-Man]

Hunting and area is pressure there, your path in and your downwind plume. Killing a deer leaves even more residual scent, especially in light of an arrow hit deer running into thicker cover often. Doe bedding areas become chase phase prime areas at the start of November. Pressure is displacement of deer- why this crossbow thing bugs the heck out of me is crossbows are more like guns than vertical bows and their users will hunt the same way (let alone the recovery and safety factor).

The state can't manage budgets and we both can be rest assured they can't do it for deer/Hunter numbers. Note where the big doe push areas are and how they relate to urban and infrastructure layout.

I am still confused that your worring about recovery and safety factor, the bow hunting course will be mandatory! At least when i took the course 30+ years ago recovery , tracking, proper shot placement , were all highly stressed and i am sure they are today! I dont see any similarity between a gun and a crossbow other than the stock, it must be drawn(guns dont) loaded with arrow( guns dont use arrows) kenitic energy of a 200 lb pull crossbow is only the same as a 5 or 70 lb pull bow,unlike the thousands of foot pounds produced by gun. Distance is only limited by shooter skill with any weapon.

as for more pressure if there are 250 bow courses available through out the year and 50 students per class thats only 12500 more ehunters entering the woods and that is a high estimate as class sizes are smaller on average.. plus you have to remember hunting losses in hunters that give up the sport for 1 reason or another every year some permant some temporary. if a new hunter walks through the woods with a xbow trying to hunt like gun hunting deer will get up and move which can be a good thing in warmer weather..

[Five Seasons]

I never said punish them ,I simple stated a fact that people pass does when they have a tag in their pocket for them, that mentality needs to change especially in high deer population areas. Waiting for a buck that may be following a doe is a common practice, as is waiting till.late season to take a doe as they will bring in the huck when they come into heat.

Proper.management will allow for a shorter more intense rut as sex ratios will be closer than they are.. bucks don't have to move if 30 does 100 feet from then Com into heat.

What I am saying , hunters, all hunters trophy hunters included need to take doe at every possibility when they have a tag for them. If your truly into conservation and habitat management you understand this, a few years of effort and the hunting gets better!

I accomplished this with a few neighbors, in the early.90's we saw 30 to 40 doe in a herd, bucks were uncommon, several years of double digit doe harvest using permits and more bucks seem to chase harder to find doe, hearing a buck fight in the wood is now almost common. The body weights of.all deer increased by 20 to 25 lbs in all age groups. Today a pop and young buck is always taken and many more seen, and a possibility of 140 in plus racks have shown up , as bigger deer are seen the hunters volantary pass 2 and 3 year old looking for 140 plus bucks and 2 of 3 years one is killed.

Management is a group effort...

Couldn't disagree more. My family will eat 3 deer easy, my dad is down to my mom and him. All they need is one. So he should just drop a doe early and be done? And I understand there's an argument for donation, but where I hunt it's a whole day affair to pull a deer out of the woods. I don't kill what I won't eat.

A hunter can hunt for what he wants, and should not be made to feel bad because he has a tag and didn't use it.

[G-Man]

Couldn't disagree more. My family will eat 3 deer easy, my dad is down to my mom and him. All they need is one. So he should just drop a doe early and be done? And I understand there's an argument for donation, but where I hunt it's a whole day affair to pull a deer out of the woods. I don't kill what I won't eat.

A hunter can hunt for what he wants, and should not be made to feel bad because he has a tag and didn't use it.

You are a management tool, many will take a deer, with dwindling numbers if you are in a high population area you need to take doe, donate them if you have too! You lose the right to complain if seasons are changed to anterless only ,or x bow become included in all of archery, the dec is mandated by the state to control deer numbers , they have to use what is available to them if that doesn't work changes are made.. you as an individual have a role to play and Untill people's attitude changes about taking and donating to a person or group, the dec will keep making changes.. game management is more than making a hunter happy. He has to realism he/she becomes a tool for management.

[G-Man]

congrats on the hero thread.

I agree- it will pass soon. Why? Because the DEC want deer numbers as low as possible. What better way to accomplish that than a group of selfish tail following fools with not even a scrap of conservation ethic? Too closed minded to know, or notice, until its too late.

I'm not an elitist archer, I am an elitist hunter who got here through giving a crap about the animals, the environment and the activity. If you cared- your contribution would be closer to comparing your crossbow to a rifle not to that of a vertical bow or admitting the lack of dedication and vigor able bodied who want crossguns have.

If you cared about the animal you hunt, you would shoot doe in high population areas, not wait for a chance at a big buck to walk by, yes the dec has a mandate to control population, and hunting is that tool, archers in general pass many deer waiting for a good buck. That is the real reason why crossbows are being pushed, numbers have to increase to incase the take for management purposes, if archers would have taken more anterless deer in the past there would be no reason to try and increase hunter numbers.

I am guilty of it as well, the number of doe I passed to take a buck ,and I mean easy shots. But I have come to realism that I have a part to play in management, and I fill my anterless and doe tags in bow, I give the deer to friends that want it ,or I could donate it to a group,but I know enough people that will take a deer. Untill the mentality of archers change the dec will continental to make changes and as doc has said you will see muzzleloader season in or before bow season as numbers need to be taken to control population with less and less hunters participating every year.

Personally an anterless only season for a year or two in high population areas followed by earn a buck would be much more effective, imagine no buck shot for 2 or 3 years and then to hunt that area all you have to do is shoot a doe 1st!! Dow would fall to the ground quick as book bucks would be much more common, like when deer season 1st open in the state, and the lucky buck was taken.

[ncountry]

If you cared about the animal you hunt, you would shoot doe in high population areas, not wait for a chance at a big buck to walk by, yes the dec has a mandate to control population, and hunting is that tool, archers in general pass many deer waiting for a good buck. That is the real reason why crossbows are being pushed, numbers have to increase to incase the take for management purposes, if archers would have taken more anterless deer in the past there would be no reason to try and increase hunter numbers.

I am guilty of it as well, the number of doe I passed to take a buck ,and I mean easy shots. But I have come to realism that I have a part to play in management, and I fill my anterless and doe tags in bow, I give the deer to friends that want it ,or I could donate it to a group,but I know enough people that will take a deer. Untill the mentality of archers change the dec will continental to make changes and as doc has said you will see muzzleloader season in or before bow season as numbers need to be taken to control population with less and less hunters participating every year.

Personally an anterless only season for a year or two in high population areas followed by earn a buck would be much more effective, imagine no buck shot for 2 or 3 years and then to hunt that area all you have to do is shoot a doe 1st!! Dow would fall to the ground quick as book bucks would be much more common, like when deer season 1st open in the state, and the lucky buck was taken.

 

I like the earn a buck program idea for high doe population areas. Doe only   will not work, imo. If they changed the areas I hunt to doe only, I would most likely not go there to hunt anymore. I  am almost always hunting for a nice buck. I just happen to take those gimme shots on does when they present themselves . . As a general rule I have taken more than 1 doe before a nice buck comes along. But without being able to take that buck would change the whole experience.

As far as mzl in bow season, that sucks. It has been that way up here for years. effectively giving us a 2-3 week bow season. Once the banging starts the deer are much harder to hunt.. Unfortunately its very effective. Our deer numbers have still not recovered. And I am willing to bet that we will always have this muzzleloader season.

[Fredbear2]

Wow crossbow hunters are just like gun hunters! Lazy ! I just don't understand people and there thoughts.i keep my real thought about that to my self!

[stoneam2006]

Couldn't disagree more. My family will eat 3 deer easy, my dad is down to my mom and him. All they need is one. So he should just drop a doe early and be done? And I understand there's an argument for donation, but where I hunt it's a whole day affair to pull a deer out of the woods. I don't kill what I won't eat.

A hunter can hunt for what he wants, and should not be made to feel bad because he has a tag and didn't use it.

Then don't complain about 2 weeks doe only

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[Five Seasons]

You are a management tool, many will take a deer, with dwindling numbers if you are in a high population area you need to take doe, donate them if you have too! You lose the right to complain if seasons are changed to anterless only ,or x bow become included in all of archery, the dec is mandated by the state to control deer numbers , they have to use what is available to them if that doesn't work changes are made.. you as an individual have a role to play and Untill people's attitude changes about taking and donating to a person or group, the dec will keep making changes.. game management is more than making a hunter happy. He has to realism he/she becomes a tool for management.

I have a right to complain if I want. It's access that is our problem and beating around that bush is a waste of typing.

[DirtTime]

I have a right to complain if I want. It's access that is our problem and beating around that bush is a waste of typing.

Not really. You are are not technically a resident of NY anymore. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

You can't ask for an opinion, then get one and tell me it's wrong. But yes if the "competition" is wounding and spooking deer then yes that's what I mean. It's a quiet peaceful time in the woods with deer traveling naturally. Of course I don't want a target buck on edge. There is no debate that the archery hunter is a more dedicated, harder working hunter. He HAS to be.

And what's stopping a non-disabled crossbow hunter from hunting with a compound like the rest of us?

 

Correct, and the crossbow hunters will have to be as well, since their effective range is no more than a compound bow in the hands of a skilled shooter. So what are you worried about? More dedicated, hard working hunters in the woods?

[fasteddie]

I have only shot a crossbow once at 40 yards . I wouldn't hesitate to take a 50 yard shot at a deer with a crossbow . Dial one in with less than a dozen shots and you're ready . 

I wouldn't try to shoot a deer at that distance with a compound . 

 

According to an interview with Ottie Snyder who is or was a Representative of Horton , a non archer could be proficiant with a crossbow in a 1/2 hour's time . Minimal practice required . 

[WNYBuckHunter]

I have only shot a crossbow once at 40 yards . I wouldn't hesitate to take a 50 yard shot at a deer with a crossbow . Dial one in with less than a dozen shots and you're ready . 

I wouldn't try to shoot a deer at that distance with a compound . 

 

According to an interview with Ottie Snyder who is or was a Representative of Horton , a non archer could be proficiant with a crossbow in a 1/2 hour's time . Minimal practice required . 

 

There are plenty of guys out there that would and do take 50 yard shots at deer with compounds. Takes alot more practice than shooting 50 yards with a crossbow, but its entirely doable.

[Fredbear2]

Exacacly said right!

[stoneam2006]

I have only shot a crossbow once at 40 yards . I wouldn't hesitate to take a 50 yard shot at a deer with a crossbow . Dial one in with less than a dozen shots and you're ready .

I wouldn't try to shoot a deer at that distance with a compound .

According to an interview with Ottie Snyder who is or was a Representative of Horton , a non archer could be proficiant with a crossbow in a 1/2 hour's time . Minimal practice required .

Yes that's probably accurate....but how much practice is required to become efficient with trad equipment?

The answer I'm assuming is why you use a compound. It's all about technology making it just a little easier...

In my hunting time alone I went from regular pins on my compound to a sight with levels and mini lights and better releases....it's all and bout ease...shooting the animal is the easy part.....getting it close enough and finding it is the challenge

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[Five Seasons]

Not really. You are are not technically a resident of NY anymore.

Even if I hunt here every year? And as of today maybe I am?

[Five Seasons]

Correct, and the crossbow hunters will have to be as well, since their effective range is no more than a compound bow in the hands of a skilled shooter. So what are you worried about? More dedicated, hard working hunters in the woods?

Why isn't he in the woods now? Remembering my stance on the elderly and disabled.