Leasing Ruins Conservation

[DirtTime]

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I'm not knocking any of these posters for keeping their property exclusive or only allowing a select few acquaintances to hunt it.  But there is no question that there is a huge difference between the hunting pressure deer face on public land and on  private land when it comes to western and central NY.

It's not just WNY or CNY, it's all of NYS! Hunting pressure is hunting pressure. The farther you venture from the burbs, the less pressure you will see. You want less pressure? Go hunt up north. You may have 2000 acres all to yourself! That's seclusion. Hit the Catskills away from the masses. There is public land that's not pressured much at all. The issue with public land is DEC does not do their part on most lands to log or make the land more conservation friendly.

Anyone who has to hunt strictly public land will have a little envy of those with private land. It is what it is. You make the best of the land you do have access too like it or not. I hunted some really crappy public woods last deer season ( I think I saw one other hunter in there ), thick as hell and tough waking if you left the trails. I still hunted it the best I could. I didn't like it, but it was better then crying I don't have a place to hunt. 

I have close to 200 acres of private land most years in the NZ. But, I have that permission because I have known the family for almost 20 years, and they got the rights for me to hunt the neighbors land. I didn't ask them to, they just did it. They are some of the best people on the planet! Every time I walk on that land to hunt or camp, I know I am lucky to have that property to hunt, and I make sure I show them appreciation. If they need something and I can do it, it's a done deal. The only stipulation is, I cannot bring a friend/s with me. Except the g/f. She is as welcome on that land as I am.

[Buckmaster7600]

I freely and proudly admit that hunting pressure is low on my properties. I've busted my butt my whole life and sacrificed plenty to make it that way. And I won't apologize for doing what "I" want to do with what I have.

Exactly, I live without so I don't have to worry about someone else ruining one of my hunts.

Yesterday at work a guy was bragging about his awesome new in ground swimming pool and showing pictures of it when another guy and I were talking about hunting and showing cam pics the guy with the new pool asked me when I was going to let him come hunt my land. When I said never he got pissy I then told him that there was 100acres down the road for sale, he laughed and said he couldn't afford it. It made my dip in my 199$ pool from Walmart so much more enjoyable watching deer in MY back field from it.


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[Zag]

When you break this all down to its simplest form the answers simple.... its a free country not an entitled country.

I feel like people just expect things instead of working for them. If you really want something find a way to make it happen.

If someone wants to lease and spend tons on leasing, stands, all the gear so be it. I know someone who spends a couple grand on a lease each yr. He would be better off buying tenderloin all year from wegmans (it would be less per pound I bet), but that's his free choice.

I'm fortunate my dad purchased land and its our FREE right to let or not let other people on our land.

[Core]

9 hours ago, zag said:

I know someone who spends a couple grand on a lease each yr. He would be better off buying tenderloin all year from wegmans (it would be less per pound I bet), but that's his free choice.

I think that's the case for everyone here! Even if you have access to land you paid nothing for, after time in the woods, time spent preparing, gear costs, processing costs, I bet most of us would hate to know how much money per pound of meat we are spending. Unless you're hunting off your back deck with the same gun you bought 20 years ago and you process it yourself odds are you're spending far more on deer meat than comparable cow 

[growalot]

This is the one I just love..my final word on this ,it just makes me ill.

Hey ,when do you want me to come over and help you out shooting those deer and When can I come over and help you out trapping those coons yotes and fox?

How many times have any of you heard....... Hey, when can I help you out with your taxes so I can enjoy hunting a season or  Hey,when can I help out with your taxes, so I can enjoy some trapping and make money for my self off your land.

Because obviously you can't do it as well as me...

Edited September 7, 2016 by growalot

[Buckmaster7600]

I think that's the case for everyone here! Even if you have access to land you paid nothing for, after time in the woods, time spent preparing, gear costs, processing costs, I bet most of us would hate to know how much money per pound of meat we are spending. Unless you're hunting off your back deck with the same gun you bought 20 years ago and you process it yourself odds are you're spending far more on deer meat than comparable cow 

"I bet most of us would hate to know how much money per pound of meat we are spending. "

That's the difference right there! Those of us who own land know exactly how much we pay because the Gov. Sends us a bill!


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[Merlot]

If I had to lease some property, I would do so in order to hunt, as long as the price isn't steep. I spent $3000 on a hunt to Montana a few years back , on private property and really enjoyed it.. My guess is lease costs would be far less if spread around between 2 or 3 poeple and still hunt quality property. Money talks. 

[BigVal]

My dad owns 175 acres in Catt county. I can hunt it he hunts it and 7 of our friends hunt it. For us it's about keeping the tradition alive and enjoying every minute out there. No he would never have a stranger who knocked on the door or called him hunt it. And keeping up with all the trespassers and poachers is enough. 

[Padre86]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

This is the one I just love..my final word on this ,it just makes me ill.

Hey ,when do you want me to come over and help you out shooting those deer and When can I come over and help you out trapping those coons yotes and fox?

How many times have any of you heard....... Hey, when can I help you out with your taxes so I can enjoy hunting a season or  Hey,when can I help out with your taxes, so I can enjoy some trapping and make money for my self off your land.

Because obviously you can't do it as well as me...

This thread has turned into the McCarthyism of the hunting community, in large part thanks to your antagonistic responses.  

No one is demanding that landowners open up their land to other hunters.  No one is even asking you specifically for permission to hunt your land.   The only detailed suggestions I've seen made are that we discuss possible government and free-market initiatives to incentivize land sharing....and even mentioning that we've had someone spew some BS about how that is stealing money from the taxpayer.  We already spends millions of taxpayer $ on a wide variety of conservation efforts and wildlife management.  There should be nothing controversial about this topic...but somehow the outrage and name-calling has persisted throughout this thread.

[growalot]

You do realize...You could have simple...not responded to my posts, if you thought I was being too antagonistic towards you, don't you? But I'll take the high road on just this one. I'll let you once again, blame someone else for your disappointing experience.

[phade]

Pretty sure the DEC already incents landowners for access to creeks/streams for fishing.

[growalot]

That is actually what the CPR program and pheasant rearing programs do ,don't they? But this thread really isn't about conservation....

[phade]

19 hours ago, growalot said:

 

Please enlighten me as to these lands you speak of. Also to the number of days and hours you hunt near said lands so I can get a better picture of the minimal pressure you have adhered to them.

 

Grow -

We hunt in two such places. One place borders over 1,000 acres of non-hunting ground - opening day of regular season is about as quiet as quiet gets from the typical volleys of gunshots in the morning. The second, is an area of around 40 acres that four hunters hunt surrounded by three parcels (one large private land owner, one corporation, one farm) totaling well over 2,500 continuous (minus the ~40 in the middle) acres of agricultural land and/or quarry land. That area around the 40 is hunted by three hunters.

 

[Buckmaster7600]

This thread has turned into the McCarthyism of the hunting community, in large part thanks to your antagonistic responses.  

No one is demanding that landowners open up their land to other hunters.  No one is even asking you specifically for permission to hunt your land.   The only detailed suggestions I've seen made are that we discuss possible government and free-market initiatives to incentivize land sharing....and even mentioning that we've had someone spew some BS about how that is stealing money from the taxpayer.  We already spends millions of taxpayer $ on a wide variety of conservation efforts and wildlife management.  There should be nothing controversial about this topic...but somehow the outrage and name-calling has persisted throughout this thread.

So because we already spend millions on "conservation" why not add to it and have to pay more for something only a few will use!

I have a way better idea how about the state starts issuing rage based on acreage owned. You don't own land you get the bare minimum. You get X # of doe and buck tags for a given acreage. That would solve this conservation issue.


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[phade]

8 minutes ago, growalot said:

That is actually what the CPR program and pheasant rearing programs do ,don't they? But this thread really isn't about conservation....

I argue it is - but you see different.

I am with Padre on this one as to a real challenge to conservation (with deer hunting specifically) being that private lands are being locked up and creating an imbalance with the public lands available. Incenting landowners to open their lands up to hunting is precisely supporting the current wildlife conservation model because it'll allow for the necessary management of the resource. The DEC has specifically said that this is one of their top barriers to effectively managing the resource (conservation). While I don't like a lot of things the DEC does or takes action on - they're spot on with this.

Monroe County has a bare minimum of public lands to hunt deer on. Just because it is "city" or "suburb" compared to your area doesn't make it any less deserving of the same conservation end goals and efforts.

There's a difference between incenting and mandating. We incent people to buy their homes (FHA, tax credits), we incent people to buy a better door or windows for their house (to reduce energy consumption), we incent people to buy electric cars and solar panels. We incent people to start businesses, even female owned ones. We incent farmers to not crop their lands.

And we're worried about who would pay to incent landowners to open up their lands to hunting so the resource can be better managed for our generation and future generations of hunters? Cry me a river. I can think of a billion other less productive ways for our tax dollars to be spent.

[growalot]

So what is going on with the first parcel..1,000 acres??? What is it, who owns it and have you attempted to gain access? To know why no one is there.  Now when mentioning a quarry...I could make a very long list of legal/safety  reasons that  shouldn't be hunted

 With the second parcel the 40 has 4 hunters...so one for every 10 acres. Surrounded by a private land owner, what corporation? and a farm.

 I can see corporate lawyers saying absolutely NO to allowing hunting...am I wrong on that Moog? The farm you didn't mention if they use damage permits during the summer or if any one has tried to gain access. the large land owner ..do you know the deal on that?

[Padre86]

24 minutes ago, growalot said:

You do realize...You could have simple...not responded to my posts, if you thought I was being too antagonistic towards you, don't you? But I'll take the high road on just this one. I'll let you once again, blame someone else for your disappointing experience.

Really?  Mr. Opinion himself takes umbrage to someone else expressing an opinion?  And what is with this professional victim-hood?  I'm not blaming you for anything.  I'm expressing the opinion that there are better, more civil ways to engage in this type of discussion versus what you have been doing.  Your accusations that "whining Democrats" are somehow conspiring to steal your land, or gain access to it, has totally derailed this thread from its original intent.

21 minutes ago, growalot said:

That is actually what the CPR program and pheasant rearing programs do ,don't they? But this thread really isn't about conservation....

What is the CPR program?  And how is that and the pheasant-rearing program related to this conversation?

Edited September 7, 2016 by Padre86

[phade]

4 minutes ago, growalot said:

So what is going on with the first parcel..1,000 acres??? What is it, who owns it and have you attempted to gain access? To know why no one is there.  Now when mentioning a quarry...I could make a very long list of legal/safety  reasons that  shouldn't be hunted

 With the second parcel the 40 has 4 hunters...so one for every 10 acres. Surrounded by a private land owner, what corporation? and a farm.

 I can see corporate lawyers saying absolutely NO to allowing hunting...am I wrong on that Moog? The farm you didn't mention if they use damage permits during the summer or if any one has tried to gain access. the large land owner ..do you know the deal on that?

Grow - you can't even comprehend what I wrote. You associate the quarry with the first parcel when very clearly I wrote that it is associated with the second. This is why it is hard to have any dialogue with you. The spin is mind-boggling.

I'm done entertaining the stories you tell yourself. You only read and hear what you want.

[growalot]

Well lets see that last question wasn't addressed to you and I see I reversed the letters so  CRP program ...feel better?

Now that's MRS. Opinion to you, and not once did I ever say;

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Your accusations that "whining Democrats" are somehow conspiring to steal your land, or gain access to it,

 But I can understand in your frustration over the real reasons you feel private land owners should open their lands to strangers to hunt...isn't actually conservation...but more for a better quality hunt for your self. You really did make that clear the more you typed.

Now this thread really never got off course..for if you go back people had already concluded why the original poster wrote what he did...Granted ,perhaps speculation but some speculations pan out...sour grapes over loosing a hunting spot...

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by growalot

[Padre86]

 

34 minutes ago, growalot said:

Now that's MRS. Opinion to you, and not once did I ever say;

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Your accusations that "whining Democrats" are somehow conspiring to steal your land, or gain access to it,

 But I can understand in your frustration over the real reasons you feel private land owners should open their lands to strangers to hunt...isn't actually conservation...but more for a better quality hunt for your self. You really did make that clear the more you typed.

 

You've made the implication, numerous times, that my posts are advocating that landowners be forced to open up their lands to other hunters.  In fact, the post above contains that very implication.  And you've mentioned previously that you think myself, and several others expressing similar ideas, are Democrats who want want others have, as seen below:

On 9/6/2016 at 7:46 AM, growalot said:

The "haves and haves nots" This entire thread explains exactly why this election is so screwed up! There are no "republicans " left...your all Democrats hiding under the republican name...

 

So, I may have paraphrased, but you've certainly expressed these ideas in previous posts.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Padre86

[growalot]

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Monroe County has a bare minimum of public lands to hunt deer on. Just because it is "city" or "suburb" compared to your area doesn't make it any less deserving of the same conservation end goals and efforts.

Phade, I won't disagree with you on the above points ...That said for the areas your talking it just won't happen...I really want Moog to chime in on this for I could be wrong...but in the area  you speak of you have corporations ,state and private college lands and county own,city owned vacant lands that lawyers are, I'm sure saying, no way. For one thing you are not going to get the DEC to do any over site on such lands for hunting...Easier to pay sharpshooters.Then there are the housing tracts... as far as the farms..well I addressed that in a previous post...

Edited September 7, 2016 by growalot

[growalot]

Wow Phade...So I miss understood where the quarry was in your post and you respond  in that manner? You give example of little used large expanses of land around where you hunt, stating:

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is about as quiet as quiet gets from the typical volleys of gunshots in the morning.

So I ask you questions to better understand why this is what you experience. Then your response was:

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This is why it is hard to have any dialogue with you. The spin is mind-boggling.

Well I'd apologize but I'm not quiet sure what it would be for...

Let me add this though...according to the OP and Padre...you and your leases are a big part of the problem, remember that.

Edited September 7, 2016 by growalot

[Padre86]

23 minutes ago, growalot said:

Phade, I won't disagree with you on the above points ...That said for the areas your talking it just won't happen...I really want Moog to chime in on this for I could be wrong...but in the area  you speak of you have corporations ,state and private college lands and county own,city owned vacant lands that lawyers are, I'm sure saying, no way. For one thing you are not going to get the DEC to do any over site on such lands for hunting...Easier to pay sharpshooters then there are the housing tracts... as far as the farms..well I addressed that in a previous post...

This just reinforces what I've suspected all along...you have no on-the-ground knowledge of many of these areas you keep referencing.  State and private college lands?  Those lands account for a minuscule percentage of the total land in Monroe.  City-owned vacant lots?  You really think there is a deer overpopulation in those areas?

And pay sharpshooters?  What sharpshooters?  You mean DEC officers?  I highly doubt they'd use firearms in Rochester, or its suburbs, to cull deer #'s, if they were to do any culling at all.

There is a deer population problem starting to develop in Monroe, but the vacant city lots or college campuses aren't the epicenter of that problem.  It's places like Mendon Ponds and other municipal parks, where hunting is prohibited, and the suburban and still-existing farm areas where the deer have really started to sprout up.  And issuing special permits for bow-hunting would no doubt put a serious dent in the problem, but there is a lot of political redtape around such initiatives.  

As I've said before Grow, you really owe it to yourself to get out and actually walk these places on foot before you make statements like these.  And my offer to take you out hunting on public land still stands.  It's anywhere from an 1-1.5 hours drive from my place to the nearest piece of land that I can hunt with a firearm.  I make that drive 5-6 times every hunting season without complaint; it is what it is.  But this rosy picture you've tried to paint about how it easy and accessible public land hunting is for western New Yorkers is quite separated from reality.  

Edited September 7, 2016 by Padre86

[kpkot]

Lol oct can't come soon enough. cant wait to see some expired deer pics instead of reading this stuff.

[Core]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

This is the one I just love..my final word on this ,it just makes me ill.

Hey ,when do you want me to come over and help you out shooting those deer and When can I come over and help you out trapping those coons yotes and fox?

How many times have any of you heard....... Hey, when can I help you out with your taxes so I can enjoy hunting a season or  Hey,when can I help out with your taxes, so I can enjoy some trapping and make money for my self off your land.

Because obviously you can't do it as well as me...

I think I can speak for a lot of people here: I'm not actually sure who you are talking to anymore in this thread.