Antler restrictions

[Culvercreek hunt club]

8 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

 the lack of consideration of ARs being a valid game management tool has to stop 

Why? If there are hunters in any part of the state that could give two craps about how big a buck is. Who are you or me or anyone else to tell them that they need to modify THEIR yard stick for a successful season so it matches ours? Who the hell are we?

[dbHunterNY]

24 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Do I need to list the WMU's that do NOT issue antlerless permits? Or the ones that are very restrictive in issuing? 

As I have said before that AR's will not impact the way I hunt. My personal standards are higher than anything they would ever impose. I will tell you this. If they decide on a state wide AR I would fight tooth and nail against it and if it was going to go through, push that ALL antlerless was done through the lottery system. NO MORE Antlerless or either sex for bow/ML. Give the gun hunters across the state the same opportunity to have a shot at an antlerless as the bow/ML hunters. 

you know damn well i know what the WMU's are.  go ahead one of them is mine.  i think they can work anywhere but i don't think they need to be every where and probably shouldn't be.  maybe some people we know push state wide but if it was "state wide" chances are they wouldn't even be in your area or the adirondacks.  you can fight tooth and nail all you want but maybe we should fight tooth and nail for our regions alone as we know them best and be open to others being different.  if you push for all antlerless to be done through lottery like the DMPs are and no doe tag can be universally taken anywhere.  more accountability in doe harvest would happen and i'll fight right there with you.  we both know we're on the same team anyway.  DEC relies too much on cautious speculation of deer take when it comes to doe harvest.

[Buckmaster7600]

you know damn well i know what the WMU's are.  go ahead one of them is mine.  i think they can work anywhere but i don't think they need to be every where and probably shouldn't be.  maybe some people we know push state wide but if it was "state wide" chances are they wouldn't even be in your area or the adirondacks.  you can fight tooth and nail all you want but maybe we should fight tooth and nail for our regions alone as we know them best and be open to others being different.  if you push for all antlerless to be done through lottery like the DMPs are and no doe tag can be universally taken anywhere.  more accountability in doe harvest would happen and i'll fight right there with you.  we both know we're on the same team anyway.  DEC relies too much on cautious speculation of deer take when it comes to doe harvest.

So you are only concerned with it helping you in your area? So all your arguments about it helping herd quality are just to help pass your selfish agenda?


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[dbHunterNY]

22 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Why? If there are hunters in any part of the state that could give two craps about how big a buck is. Who are you or me or anyone else to tell them that they need to modify THEIR yard stick for a successful season so it matches ours? Who the hell are we?

not talking hunter management i'm talking herd management.  deer out here aren't in the same situation as the deer out your way.  believe it or not we could use it out this way.

[dbHunterNY]

5 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

 

So you are only concerned with it helping you in your area? So all your arguments about it helping herd quality are just to help pass your selfish agenda?


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no... i'm trying to remain respectful so please do the same.  if you knew me, you'd know i'm by far not in it for myself and know with absolute certainty how much that statement burns my a**. certain regions ARs would work very well.  for others the improvements might not be worth it to offset any negatives.  they can be taylored and make a difference anywhere but know when someone says statewide regardless of who they are you should take that as assessing them in various regions throughout NYS.  some will get them and some won't as it should be.  Right now people seem to have this notion of they fix everything or they don't work at all.  that's ridiculous.  i just want people to accept the fact that they can work when state mandated.  don't try to disapprove they'll work or not work here because of an exact situation that's different VT, PA, Michigan, Missouri, etc.  we're not them.  they'll effect areas in NY how they'll effect them.

[Buckmaster7600]

no... i'm trying to remain respectful so please do the same.  if you knew me, you'd know i'm by far not in it for myself and know with absolute certainty how much that statement burns my a**. certain regions ARs would work very well.  for others the improvements might not be worth it to offset any negatives.  they can be taylored and make a difference anywhere but know when someone says statewide regardless of who they are you should take that as assessing them in various regions throughout NYS.  some will get them and some won't as it should be.  Right now people seem to have this notion of they fix everything or they don't work at all.  that's ridiculous.  i just want people to accept the fact that they can work when state mandated.  don't try to disapprove they'll work or not work here because of an exact situation that's different VT, PA, Michigan, Missouri, etc.  we're not them.  they'll effect areas in NY how they'll effect them.

The problem is your definition of it working is different than mine as well as many others. That is my whole argument against them. To me hunting is about enjoying the outdoors and enjoying the harvest. If the harvest is a spike and it makes you or anyone else happy, awesome! What I hate most about modern hunting is the fact that people seem ashamed of killing a small buck and the "he's not a monster but..." Crap that kills me.


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[BigVal]

It would be really hard to enforce a lot of what is being said and suggested here. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

25 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

The problem is your definition of it working is different than mine as well as many others. That is my whole argument against them. To me hunting is about enjoying the outdoors and enjoying the harvest. If the harvest is a spike and it makes you or anyone else happy, awesome! What I hate most about modern hunting is the fact that people seem ashamed of killing a small buck and the "he's not a monster but..." Crap that kills me.


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Thats because deep down they want to kill a big deer but do not have the will power to hold off the trigger. Now make it a law and that problem is solved. Cant tell ya how many times i hear the same thing from other hunters. Thought he was bigger or he was running or a million others.  Your right that if thats what they want then do it but when they make an excuse for doing it then that shows a whole different picture.

[The_Real_TCIII]

I'd be for a one buck rule including BB, and it would have ended my season opening morning when I shot this guy by mistake. I realize only 5% of hunters kill two bucks but what happens to that number if BB are included? Or spikes less than 3"


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[dbHunterNY]

10 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

The problem is your definition of it working is different than mine as well as many others. That is my whole argument against them. To me hunting is about enjoying the outdoors and enjoying the harvest. If the harvest is a spike and it makes you or anyone else happy, awesome! What I hate most about modern hunting is the fact that people seem ashamed of killing a small buck and the "he's not a monster but..." Crap that kills me.


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and the problem i have is the notion that where they're justified for use will destroy so much opportunity and they're set in stone forever.  it also bothers me that no matter how much the soap box gets worn out all the disagreement of ARs leads back to antler size first and i first and the deer second.  in reality experiences with deer in field and the ability to just sit back and enjoy things sky rockets.  if you put the deer first then you ensure the hunting tomorrow will be the best it can be.  most people reading this realistically won't truely know what i'm getting at.  you have to experience and see better hunting unfold to understand.  otherwise it's just words on the screen.  if hunters are conservationists, since when did enjoying the harvest and hunter desires trump doing better for the deer, just enjoying encounters with deer, and enjoying experiences to be had in the outdoors?  if we can't shoot any deer of our choice that's there, are they less important?  if we can't shoot what we choose are conservation efforts better left elsewhere?

[dbHunterNY]

28 minutes ago, BigVal said:

It would be really hard to enforce a lot of what is being said and suggested here. 

DEC had an educated plan for AR implementation at the ready.  it got the axled due to politics and fear of the possible chance it could fail.  thing is without failure we'd never learn anything and things wouldn't continue to be better.

[upstate]

2 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

that's one of the major points of AR's for a region within a state.  it's less likely they'll do much in areas of adirondacks and areas from niagara to rochester and just below.  they really shine for areas in the southeastern 2/3 of the state.  it makes the small acreage little guy empowered to feel he doesn't have to take only what he/she gets walking into their little piece of heaven.  it's only getting worse too.  big acreage is leased to help pay some taxes and upon each generation it gets subdivided and/or sold off.  we have over 80 land owners in our QDM co-op only bound by handshakes between landowners, by far most of them are less than 80 acres.

Then you're doing QDM the only way it can be done properly, with big plots (total!!). 

 

It's not working if there's not many deer there and it is not only about the bucks. 

 

This can work. I'm not sure it should be mandatory anywhere in NY because the aim is to manage the herd. 

 

Access to hunting lands is the biggest threat hunting faces, not AR. 

 

 

[dbHunterNY]

15 minutes ago, The_Real_TCIII said:

I'd be for a one buck rule including BB, and it would have ended my season opening morning when I shot this guy by mistake. I realize only 5% of hunters kill two bucks but what happens to that number if BB are included? Or spikes less than 3"


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i think the "one buck only" rule's only saving grace is that hunters will pass up opportunity due to anticipation something better might come along.  most i know already do this voluntarily even in areas with lower buck numbers.  those who are for it would probably have valid concern if they have higher numbers of bucks per square mile that would allow for the likelihood of getting  enough opportunity to take more than one buck without thinking twice about it.  another benefit might be that bucks taken later versus sooner due to anticipation might allow more competition and better breeding ecology.  in some areas it wouldn't do a damn thing.  puts more emphasis on concept that a best solution for an region (buck regions DEC already came up with) is different from that for the next region.  what i think.

[growalot]

3 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

to be clear, i think anyone can buy a tag to hunt doe anywhere in the state except WMUs that are NYC and city of Buffalo.  in some areas you're talking about you just can't hunt them with the most efficient weapons.

 

2 hours ago, growalot said:

A difference between either or tags and the DMP that most if not all are referring to.

 

2 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

those either or tags are a big portion of antlerless take throughout the state.  not every place in the state is blessed with HIGH DMP tag allocations like where you hunt.  many rely on preference points or a tax id for 50+ acres of land.  "most if not all referring to" is an assumption on your part.

I'm sorry you need to tell me what  doe tags you were referring to that anyone can hunt anywhere in the state other than either or..Because If I'm making and assumption the the guys here, other than your self where talking about DMP's and not either  or tags than show me this. I tell you I was wrong.

[adkhunter71]

42 minutes ago, Four Season Whitetails said:

Thats because deep down they want to kill a big deer but do not have the will power to hold off the trigger. Now make it a law and that problem is solved. Cant tell ya how many times i hear the same thing from other hunters. Thought he was bigger or he was running or a million others.  Your right that if thats what they want then do it but when they make an excuse for doing it then that shows a whole different picture.

It's comments like these that make people feel ashamed or feel like they have to make excuse for killing bucks that they otherwise would be happy with.  Get off your frigging high horse and let others enjoy their experiences.  They have nothing to do with you.  When everyone hunts the same areas as you, is able to put in the time that you do, and loves horns as much as you, then you can criticize them.  

Everyone's situation is different and there is no one size fits all solution that will make everyone happy, other than voluntary ARs.

[dbHunterNY]

9 minutes ago, upstate said:

Then you're doing QDM the only way it can be done properly, with big plots (total!!). 

it's true in a sense that if you want help from DEC you have to be 1000 acres of contiguous property.  otherwise i've seen properties as small as yours do just fine.  I've seen a few properties together do with much better than a whole group spanning across a couple townships.  i have 10 acres my house sits on that i practice QDM with.  surrounding area is "if it's brown it's down".  i see a vast majority of bucks use my property at some point during the season.

It's not working if there's not many deer there and it is not only about the bucks. 

QDM is just a set of principals that evolves to your situation.  you can increase or lower the population.  shooting or not shooting deer is only a part of it. 

This can work. I'm not sure it should be mandatory anywhere in NY because the aim is to manage the herd.

one of the cornerstones of QDM is herd management.  i can do on a co-op what DEC can't do and DEC can do what i can't do on a co-op.  just different goals in a different prioritized order.  hunting still gets better though.

Access to hunting lands is the biggest threat hunting faces, not AR. 

i completely agree.  that's why it's important to allow small parcels to provide hunting opportunity as much like bigger ones as possible.  otherwise hunters will think it's useless and lose drive or interest all together in pursuing deer each hunting season.

 

 

[chrisw]

So what do the hunters do in areas where there are very few or no antlerless permits issued? 

There is state land in every county of the state, put in for an area with doe permits. If you have to travel a bit further so be it. I drive an hour each way to hunt. I don't sit on my 10 acres complaining. Go where the deer are.

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[growalot]

Here's a question I would like answered...How many of you saw buck this year with all or part of their racks broken off in bow season? Now why ask that question? Because of herd health...How healthy is it to have a herd where the breeding competition puts the best of the breeders in  fight to near death competitions. When you see these bucks walking around with only one side or many broken tines,ever ask yourself just how much power it takes to do that. What it does to deplete their energy reserves . This on top of the rigors of chasing and breeding doe. Then mind you, the possibility of severe weather setting in,  in the near future with little chance of rebuilding those reserves. I saw 3 half rack 8's and several broken up younger buck..even my little guy had broken tines...Now if you'd like, hit those questions with this little topping...mortal wounds  and infections how many go down from those before the possibility of starvation....

See the utopia that the AR's guys are begging for  has these little side effects... You nearly never hear them mention these things...just something to think about...

[Buckmaster7600]

and the problem i have is the notion that where they're justified for use will destroy so much opportunity and they're set in stone forever.  it also bothers me that no matter how much the soap box gets worn out all the disagreement of ARs leads back to antler size first and i first and the deer second.  in reality experiences with deer in field and the ability to just sit back and enjoy things sky rockets.  if you put the deer first then you ensure the hunting tomorrow will be the best it can be.  most people reading this realistically won't truely know what i'm getting at.  you have to experience and see better hunting unfold to understand.  otherwise it's just words on the screen.  if hunters are conservationists, since when did enjoying the harvest and hunter desires trump doing better for the deer, just enjoying encounters with deer, and enjoying experiences to be had in the outdoors?  if we can't shoot any deer of our choice that's there, are they less important?  if we can't shoot what we choose are conservation efforts better left elsewhere?

I am in a camp in the Catskill where there has been AR for 5 or so years. I have seen little to no difference. 15 years ago it was awesome hunting now it sucks. On our 400acres we haven't saw a difference, maybe another 5 years is what it needs down there.

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[growalot]

14 minutes ago, chrisw said:

 

There is state land in every county of the state, put in for an area with doe permits. If you have to travel a bit further so be it. I drive an hour each way to hunt. I don't sit on my 10 acres complaining. Go where the deer are.

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That could be said to the guys pushing for AR's..there is State land in all the areas where big buck are doing well in NYS...go find them...How many time have you heard that State land isn't being hunted nearly as hard as some believe and there have been some fine state land bucks shown on many sites

[Steuben Jerry]

35 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Oh you....just go sit in the corner with that license you bought, be quiet and wait a couple years. They promise you won't even notice the two years for the magic to happen. 

LOL!!

By the way, I was watching a little 5 acre field surrounded by woods on the afternoon of the rifle opener, and at one point had 14 does in the field. My wife, at about the same time had 7 does in front of her 500 yds away from me. And we're both left wondering why the DEC says our population of does is dangerously low. I've never seen that many does on our property at one time.

Maybe those were all the does in 8T, and there are no more. 

 

[dbHunterNY]

14 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

 

I am in the Catskill where there has been AR for 5 or so years. I have seen little to no difference. 15 years ago it was awesome hunting now it sucks. On our 400acres we haven't saw a difference, maybe another 5 years is what it needs down there.


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i've talked to a lot of people who hunt down there.  everything with the buck situation seems to be better i'm told.  i've even asked about high grading down there.  nobody seems to tell things are any worse in that respect.  it would make sense that with a property like yours where you're already voluntarily passing yearling bucks you wouldn't see much difference.   the ARs only protect a portion of yearlings.  deer numbers seem to be going down the crapper though i'm told.  in some WMUs doe tag allocation is ridiculously through the roof.  maybe that's it?  15 yrs there could definitely a trickle effect with a WMU draining numbers from neighboring ones.  i mean 4 times the DMP tags (for growalot) that we get up here per WMU and we have lots of ag ground to back up browse that'd be otherwise hammered more by the deer.  if that's the reason you say it now sucks then 5 more years isn't the fix.

[chrisw]

That could be said to the guys pushing for AR's..there is State land in all the areas where big buck are doing well in NYS...go find them...How many time have you heard that State land isn't being hunted nearly as hard as some believe and there have been some fine state land bucks shown on many sites

I'm not arguing, there are 2 sides to that coin also. I hunt state and I do just fine on bucks and does. But to the people who just hunt behind their house and complain that they can't get doe tags for their area so they shoot the small bucks, there are plenty of good areas to hunt does on public land. The people who say I'm just a meat hunter will sit in the woods and have a 4pt and a huge doe walk up to them and they will shoot that small buck Everytime. These are often the people who say "you can't eat horns." Then if meat is the priority to them, why shoot the small buck? It's as if the word "buck" is magical and when you talk to your buddies just saying the word buck bumps you up on the hunting totem pole. As I stated before, I'm on both sides of this argument. I just don't care to see hunters passing up does in order to shoot a 1.5yr old buck because "it's a buck." I'm sure this next statement will ruffle a few feathers but I feel that most of the guys that bash people for wanting bigger bucks and the typical "I'm a meat hunter" (the one who kills a little buck every year) lack the patience, skill or determination to successfully kill larger, older bucks so they justify their killing of little bucks every year by saying "you can't eat the horns." I kill 2-3 does every year for meat, after that if it's not going on the wall I don't kill it. That's my personal rule. I'm not saying it's right or logical but that's my outlook on it. Don't kill a buck just to say you got a buck.

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[Culvercreek hunt club]

46 minutes ago, chrisw said:

 

There is state land in every county of the state, put in for an area with doe permits. If you have to travel a bit further so be it. I drive an hour each way to hunt. I don't sit on my 10 acres complaining. Go where the deer are.

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So if you want a big buck and don't have them where you are, hop in the car and go get one. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

32 minutes ago, Steuben Jerry said:

LOL!!

By the way, I was watching a little 5 acre field surrounded by woods on the afternoon of the rifle opener, and at one point had 14 does in the field. My wife, at about the same time had 7 does in front of her 500 yds away from me. And we're both left wondering why the DEC says our population of does is dangerously low. I've never seen that many does on our property at one time.

Maybe those were all the does in 8T, and there are no more. 

 

I hunted in 8 H all bow season. An area that they pulled the ability to shoot a buck the first two weeks last year, becasue the population is so high and out of control. I passed on  12 different 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks, saw three i would have loved to been able to take and one doe. Yup.....one doe and I let her go becasue she had a buck on her heels and he ended up being a small one. So here I am an area that is supposedly supper high in doe population and couldn't buy one...lol