Crossbow/gun and whitetail population

[nyantler]

11 hours ago, skiop said:

It brings out those same unsavory characters that gun season does

I know of just as many "unsavory" bow and muzzleloader hunters... the weapon has little to do with anything... it can't pick the idiot that decides to use it in an unsavory manner.

Edited December 28, 2016 by nyantler

[skiop]

2 hours ago, nyantler said:

I know of just as many "unsavory" bow and muzzleloader hunters... the weapon has little to do with anything... it can't pick the idiot that decides to use it in an unsavory manner.

You must run with a tough crowd. If the weapon has nothing to do with it why are the reports overwhelmingly involving a firearm and increasingly the  crossbow. I would consider the muzzleloader part of the gun season

 

DEC Region 5 Environmental Conservation Police 2014 Hunting Season Report

New York State Department of Environmental Conservation Police Officers (ECOs) ticketed numerous poachers for violating hunting and firearm laws and regulation during the big game hunting season.

"Enforcing hunting and trapping laws helps to ensure suitable populations of deer, bear and other wildlife in the region and throughout the state," said Regional Environmental Conservation Police Captain Daniel Darrah. "It also ensures that the large majority of law abiding hunters are provided are fair opportunity to pursue game that these poachers are taking. DEC and the Environmental Conservation Police appreciate the thousands of hunters who consistently adhere to hunting regulations and guidelines, and who pass on the traditions of safety, responsibility and conservation to the next generation."

ECOs charged 152 individuals with a total of 270 total charges. The charges included 91 misdemeanors and 179 violations. The breakdown of the charges include:

• 44 charges pertaining to the illegal taking of big game (m);
• 10 possession of firearm during bow or muzzleloader season (m);
• 8 discharges within 500 feet of a dwelling (m);
• 3 Criminal possession of a weapon 4th (m)
• 31 firearms related charges (loaded gun in a motor vehicle, shooting from roadway) (m and v);
• 81 tickets related to tagging, reporting and licensing (v);
• 39 charges for hunting with bait or placing salt (v);
• 30 trespass on posted property (v);
• 6 spotlighting (4 m, 2 v); and
• 4 loaded crossbows in a motor vehicle (v).

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/100234.html

 

Saratoga County

On November 15, 2011, Justin J Carr, 26, of Saratoga Springs was charged with use of a spotlight from a motor vehicle while in possession of an unsecured firearm, a misdemeanor. He was issued an appearance ticket for the Town of Northumberland Court. Carr faces maximum possible penalties of $1000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail.

On November 15, 2011, Christopher M Columbe, 26, of Saratoga Springs was charged with use of a spotlight in a motor vehicle while in possession of an unsecured firearm, a misdemeanor. He was issued an appearance ticket for the Town of Northumberland Court. Columbe faces maximum possible penalties of $1000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail.

On November 19, 2011, John H Gilchrist, 60, of Ballston Spa was charged with possessing a loaded firearm on a motor vehicle, a misdemeanor. He was issued an appearance ticket for the Town of Milton Court. Gilchrist faces maximum possible penalties of $1000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail.

On November 19, 2011, Casey D Sawyer, 31, of Ballston Spa was charged with possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle, a misdemeanor. He was issued an appearance ticket for the Town of Milton Court. Sawyer faces maximum possible penalties of $1000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail.

On November 20, 2011, Rodney P. Woodard, 39, of Queensbury was charged with possessing a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle, a misdemeanor. Woodard was issued an appearance ticket for the Town of Northumberland Court and paid a $200 fine.

On November 21, 2011, Lance K. Matter, of Milton was charged with a misdemeanor for illegally taking deer, and two violations - hunting over bait and feeding deer. Matter was issued appearance tickets for the Town of Milton Court and paid $750 in fines.

On November 24, 2011 Douglas S Chamberlain, 49, of Broadalbin, was charged with possessing a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle, a misdemeanor. He was issued an appearance ticket for the Town of Providence. Chamberlain faces maximum possible penalties of $1000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail.

On November 27, 2011, Leo A. Bouleris, of Clifton Park was charged with possessing a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle. He was issued an appearance ticket for the Town of Stillwater Court. Bouleris faces maximum possible penalties of $1000 in fines and up to three months in jail.

On November 27, 2011 Justin J Derusha, 20, of Gansevoort was charged with a misdemeanor for discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling and two violations - unlawful possession of a turkey and failure to tag deer. He was issued appearance tickets for the Town of Northumberland. Derusha faces maximum possible penalties of $1500 in fines and up to 120 days in jail

On December 4, 2011, Jason D Kelly, 30, of Greenfield Center was charged with possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle, a misdemeanor. He was issued an appearance ticket for the Town of Greenfield. Kelly faces maximum possible penalties of $1000 in fines and up to 90 days in jail.

On December 5, 2011, Jeffry H. Klein, 59, of Clifton Park was charged with discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling and illegally killing a deer, both misdemeanors. He was issued appearance tickets for the Town of Clifton Park Court. Klein faces maximum possible penalties of $3000 in fines and up to 15 months in jail.

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by skiop

[cnymuzguy]

 

Quote

You only get one shot with a crossbow, just like a vert bow, then it's empty.

Actually I can knock an arrow in my compound within seconds. I've missed and then killed a deer with a second shot. There is very little chance of a second shot with the noise of a crossbow (both shooting and re-cocking). Advantage bow.

 

Quote

...the reports overwhelmingly involving a firearm and increasingly the crossbow.

Plenty of violations with regular bow. Mostly they involve shooting before or after legal shooting hours or baiting. Since you can't hear the shot, does anybody know what time the arrow was really released? BTW, when is a bow "loaded"? I know of numerous people who shoot at first light and dark, neither of which is sunrise or sunset. Fewer people in the woods, no noise, how are the CO's going to catch them? The person would have to admit to the violation to make it stick.

I use a compound no problem, but have no issue with crossbows. Like I said before, it is no different then being allowed to use rifles in what used to be shotgun only areas.

[nyantler]

8 hours ago, skiop said:

You must run with a tough crowd. If the weapon has nothing to do with it why are the reports overwhelmingly involving a firearm and increasingly the  crossbow. I would consider the muzzleloader part of the gun season

The biggest reason would be that there are more gun related laws that can be broken. None of those weapons loaded themselves or asked to be present when the idiot made his decision to break the law. Do you blame the weapon for terrorist killings as well? Because that would make airplanes responsible for the largest mass killing in the US... you getting how silly your logic sounds yet?

[cnymuzguy]

Just because people aren't getting caught, doesn't mean there aren't violations. I believe someone once said "In football, a penalty is only a penalty if it's called..." There several variations on cheating and illegalities.

[Nomad]

Never had much interest in crossbows , largely because I've never found it much of a challenge to kill a deer with a compound,( which is lighter , smaller and easier to,use out of trees ) frankly I find bow easier then gun because of the greater opportunity at relaxed deer just walking around each day . Let's face it today's archery equipment is light years ahead of what was out there when we first got a " bow season ."

As I age and the injuries pile up ( arthritis in hands and feet, two inpinged shoulders , frozen shoulder, pinched nerve in neck, hip and knee pain ) the crossbow has some appeal , even if it's some big ,heavy ,clumsy contraption  that almost seems to be a hindrance in some fashion .

Most deer I've killed in bow were in the 10 to 20 yard range , my farthest was 25 yards so I stand little to gain from  its ability to shoot longer ranges , others may I guess , to which I say good post a picture !

[gjs4]

Exactly- 
 
Full inclusion will happen in NY - breaking the hearts of the true bow hunters 
 
 

Surely you are right- death to the skilled and rise of the lame and lazy. Get em boys !


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[grampy]

10 minutes ago, gjs4 said:

 

Surely you are right- death to the skilled and rise of the lame and lazy. Get em boys !


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I may be a bit lame because of some health issues. But in no way am I lazy when it comes to hunting. I don't like the insinuation, because someone may choose to hunt differently than you. If it's legal, just hunt. It's all good man.

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

In the coming years there will be a lot people that will need to change there screen names when they jump ship and buy a crossbow.

 

 

 

[cnymuzguy]

Quote

Surely you are right- death to the skilled and rise of the lame and lazy.

You must feel ALL fish should be caught on a dry fly. too??? What does your choice and skill level have to do with someone else? Not sure, does elitism breed ignorance or is it the the opposite???

[gjs4]

Is is legal to tag a dead deer and let it rot as well but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. A genuine apology to anyone who has physical restraint that would not allow the use of a vertical bow but would a crossbow. As for the remainder- yup; lazy. Elitist? Nope. Try archery, then bow hunting and then deal with the tribes of NY gun hunters that want more time trashing the woods. You'll get it.


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[wolc123]

If we could hear just one good reason against full inclusion that did not involve selfish elitism, or see any evidence that the majority of NY's deer hunters (or even bow-hunters) does not support it,  then you anti's might have a fighting chance.  As it stands right now, you seem to have just about had it.   Doc's decision to side-step my pointed questions is a pretty good indication of that.      

Here they are one more time Doc (or any other anti who is brave enough to take them on):

Since you like answering questions: Are you a NYB member?    How many deer have you hit but not recovered with your vertical bows?  Have you ever missed any clean?  If you were to go over to the dark side, and use a crossbow, would you expect your success percentage to increase to decrease?  Can you fire a rifle more accurately from a rest or off-hand?   Does a telescopic sight help or hurt your accuracy?     

    

In case you turn the selfish thing back on me as you have done repeatedly:

If and when full-inclusion happens:  

1.) I will welcome you and others to use a compound, recurve, or longbow during any open deer season.   What weapon you choose is none of my business, as long as it is legal and you develop proficiency with it prior to use on deer.

2.) If a gun, or ML hunter push to get into archery season I will fight it, because the noise will backfire causing the deer to go nocturnal sooner.  They might not know that so my fight is really for their own good.   I will politely suggest that they take the archery course (I do feel that should be required for crossbows and vertical bows), and purchase one or the other if they want to partake in OUR "special" quite time.        

[nodeerhere]

They will be doing deer drives with xbows!! I can see it already!!!! 

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

17 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

They will be doing deer drives with xbows!! I can see it already!!!! 

Ive done deer drives with a compound bow. It would be no different and unsuccessful although it was mainly to entertain ourselves but it is possible..

To anyone who hasnt hunted with a crossbow accuracy goes way down without a rest or offhand as they are front heavy, they are and can be difficult to maneuver in a tree stand situation with the horizontal limbs,, they are not miraculous killing machines that people think they are..

They offer distinct advantages and disadvantages in certain situations..

[nodeerhere]

Of course u have.

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

11 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

Of course u have.

With a screen name like nodeerhere I would think you would be all for the crossbow,, they come with special magic  charms that also make the deer appear in front of you when you say abracadabra..

[nodeerhere]

9 minutes ago, Bowshotmuzzleloader said:

With a screen name like nodeerhere I would think you would be all for the crossbow,, they come with special magic  charms that also make the deer appear in front of you when you say abracadabra..

Yep! Never even shot one.

[skiop]

3 hours ago, nyantler said:

The biggest reason would be that there are more gun related laws that can be broken.

Like the same law that applies to both gun and bow with all these people getting citations for spotting deer with loaded guns in the car.

 

None of those weapons loaded themselves or asked to be present when the idiot made his decision to break the law.

True and at no point did I state it was the weapons fault....your words. I merely indicated it entices

 

Do you blame the weapon for terrorist killings as well? Because that would make airplanes responsible for the largest mass killing in the US... you getting how silly your logic sounds yet?

Not so silly if you don't make sh!t up

 

[nyantler]

11 minutes ago, skiop said:

 

Yeah makes sense to me to spotlight a deer from truck then wait for the perfect shot to kill it with a bow... then park the truck and get out to track an arrow hit deer with a flashlight as it runs farther from the vehicle for however long it takes to die... usually on posted property... then drag it un-gutted as fast as I can back to the truck... all before anyone comes by wondering what the truck is doing parked on the side of the road and why there is a guy with a flashlight dragging a deer in the dark on posted property. Think about this for a second until it sinks in... then you'll have no problem understanding why a gun is a much better choice for the idiot spotlighting and shooting deer. Unless you think I'm making up the part about maybe the poacher wanting to get things done and get out of Dodge as quickly as possible. Or did you mean I made the part up about the airplanes? Because that part is true.

[DirtTime]

16 hours ago, Doc said:

I hope the single-shot argument never becomes a criteria for inclusion into bow season, or we will have the muzzleloaders, and single-shot rifles and shotguns alongside us (But that would make us unselfish....lol). But using only one shot is no strange concept for a whole lot of us gun hunters. In fact many very popular rifles and shotguns are single shot.

I suspect the number of bowhunters who would really give a damn about being booted out of the regular gun season could be counted on one hand with fingers left over ..... lol.

You missed the point on the single shot. My comment was, the hunters who feel the need to empty a gun at running deer would never use a crossbow because they would only get one shot. I do not think you will get the over zealots from the gun season in the bow season, even if they could use a crossbow.

 

As for the second part......Not so sure about that, but, we all have opinions and an opinion is never right or wrong as it's just an opinion.

[gjs4]

What is one good reason we need full inclusion beyond your own selfish motives? Why should crossbows be an option if you're physically capable of using a bow? Would you be as adamant if it was a one buck rule? So how do you feel about more crossbow but at the cost of less gun season? Why is anyone who loves archery automatically part of NYB or an elitist? Why should she determine when you can use a weapon like a crossbow?

Typical fist pumping close mindedness of a HuntingNY thread - so why not throw it back? Bottom line is this place is filled with salty dogs who can't stand anything that could benefit their likelihood to kill deer easily after 40 years of doing it their way slip through their fingers. You've only thought about yourselves the whole journey- give it a rest and exit stage right. Let someone else have a chance They earned to do it their way and better.


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[gjs4]

Ive done deer drives with a compound bow. It would be no different and unsuccessful although it was mainly to entertain ourselves but it is possible..
To anyone who hasnt hunted with a crossbow accuracy goes way down without a rest or offhand as they are front heavy, they are and can be difficult to maneuver in a tree stand situation with the horizontal limbs,, they are not miraculous killing machines that people think they are..
They offer distinct advantages and disadvantages in certain situations..

You are the Wikipedia of NY Hunting Facts and Strategy. This post is high in Nitrogen content.


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[reeltime]

2 hours ago, wolc123 said:

If we could hear just one good reason against full inclusion that did not involve selfish elitism, or see any evidence that the majority of NY's deer hunters (or even bow-hunters) does not support it,  then you anti's might have a fighting chance.  As it stands right now, you seem to have just about had it.   Doc's decision to side-step my pointed questions is a pretty good indication of that.    

if it was fully supported it would already be included, the DEC wants deer killed period. the largest factor that saves deer that they have no control over is hunter access.  will crossbows be legal at some point, yes they will so at that time you can jump up and down and pat yourself on the back and say see I told ya so. 

talk to some pa, ohio, and a number of other crossbow states game wardens and the crossbow is rapidly becoming the poachers tool of choice.

Here they are one more time Doc (or any other anti who is brave? enough to take them on):

Since you like answering questions: Are you a NYB member?     yes, a life member, as well as life member of pa bowhunters association as well as the NRA... are YOU? these organizations work to gain season lengths and keep members informed of legislation changes and DEC changes.  I suppose you think anyone a member of those organizations makes them an elitist?

How many deer have you hit but not recovered with your vertical bows?  in 39 years of bowhunting  117 harvested  only 1 lost and it still haunts me to this day.  this is relevant how?  do you really believe that every deer shot at with a crossbow will be recovered if hit?  

Have you ever missed any clean?  yes, and what is the point of this ? a clean miss is much better than a hit and lost.

If you were to go over to the dark side, and use a crossbow, would you expect your success percentage to increase to decrease? would likely stay the same and actually my shot opportunities would likely go down as the crossbows are much harder to maneuver in a stand.  I do not take low percentage shots nor do I take long range shots. I have a great amount of respect for the animals I hunt and do not treat them as being there for my target practice.

Can you fire a rifle more accurately from a rest or off-hand?  this is relevant how? I read this as you compare the crossbow more to a rifle than a freely held verticle bow.

  Does a telescopic sight help or hurt your accuracy?    again with the comparison to a gun, only a fool would think your not as accurate with a scope, never saw a sniper rifle without a scope. 

    

In case you turn the selfish thing back on me as you have done repeatedly: pot calling the kettle black?

If and when full-inclusion happens:  

1.) I will welcome you and others to use a compound, recurve, or longbow during any open deer season.   What weapon you choose is none of my business, as long as it is legal and you develop proficiency with it prior to use on deer.

YOU will welcome us to use compound, recurve or longbow?? how generous of you seeing how they were already legal implements.

2.) If a gun, or ML hunter push to get into archery season I will fight it, because the noise will backfire causing the deer to go nocturnal sooner.  They might not know that so my fight is really for their own good.      

so you will become a selfish elitist because it will affect YOU.  I would suggest you getting used to the term because early doe/muzzleloader season in October is not far into the future. They have been doing so in pa in some fashion for over 10 years and it hasn't harmed the archery take.   The DEC wants deer killed and even your all sacred magical deer slaying crossbow isn't going to satisfy their numbers so they will bring in the guns to kill doe.     

I will politely suggest that they take the archery course (I do feel that should be required for crossbows and vertical bows), and purchase one or the other if they want to partake in OUR "special" quite time.

and I would politely suggest that those that want to partake in our quite time put forth the time and effort to become proficient with a vertical bow.  see it works both ways. 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by reeltime

[stubby68]

22 minutes ago, reeltime said:

talk to some pa, ohio, and a number of other crossbow states game wardens and the crossbow is rapidly becoming the poachers tool of choice.

Yes because we all know that it is easier to shoot a deer with an arrow then track it with a flashlight then to use a gun and kill it where it stands. If they use crossbows then why wouldn't they use compounds. Oh wait a bow hunter would never do anything illegal. Only guys with guns or crossbows.

[reeltime]

15 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

Yes because we all know that it is easier to shoot a deer with an arrow then track it with a flashlight then to use a gun and kill it where it stands. If they use crossbows then why wouldn't they use compounds. Oh wait a bow hunter would never do anything illegal. Only guys with guns or crossbows.

simple,  they shoot the deer it runs out of the field or back into the woods, then they drive away and come back later drop off a person to track and retrieve under cover of darkness and either take the deer then or come back the next day to retrieve their "prize".   Bows are used as well,  I never once said a particular weapon choice person, I said the crossbow is fast becoming the poachers weapon of choice, whether they are gun hunters, crossbow hunters, or bow hunters makes no difference as they are all classified the same POACHERS when wild game is killed outside the lines of the law.

gunshots at night attract a lot of attention, sure poachers still use guns, much greater chance of getting caught using a loud gun and then having to jump out grab an ungutted deer and get it to and into the vehicle before someone shows up.