Crossbow/gun and whitetail population

[nodeerhere]

What will or deer herds and buck growth be if they allow this weapon fully during bow?what will happen to the compound,recurve, and long bow. 

[BizCT]

What will or deer herds and buck growth be if they allow this weapon fully during bow?what will happen to the compound,recurve, and long bow. 

To the best of my knowledge, it Hasn't had any negative effect in other states (NJ, PA, CT, OH, etc.). I believe full inclusion for xbows exists in around 30-35 states already.


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[wolc123]

Ohio might offer you a pretty good clue on what it will be.   As far as I know they rank well above NY in deer hunter satisfaction and they were the first state to have full inclusion.    There is plenty of evidence out there that it will make things better and none that indicates "the sky will fall".    The poll that was posted on this site in the bow-hunting section was indicating that NY bowhunters on this site support full inclusion by nearly a 2:1 margin over leaving it like it is, when it "disappeared" because it must not have fit "someones" agenda.   That "someone" was no doubt part of the elitist , selfish minority of bowhunters who are desperately trying to hold the line using any means possible.   Had that poll showed a majority in opposition you had better believe it would not have gone away.    

[nodeerhere]

How ever isn't Ohio a 1 buck state? 

[Bowshotmuzzleloader]

33 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

Ohio might offer you a pretty good clue on what it will be.   As far as I know they rank well above NY in deer hunter satisfaction and they were the first state to have full inclusion.    There is plenty of evidence out there that it will make things better and none that indicates "the sky will fall".    The poll that was posted on this site in the bow-hunting section was indicating that NY bowhunters on this site support full inclusion by nearly a 2:1 margin over leaving it like it is, when it "disappeared" because it must not have fit "someones" agenda.   That "someone" was no doubt part of the elitist , selfish minority of bowhunters who are desperately trying to hold the line using any means possible.   Had that poll showed a majority in opposition you had better believe it would not have gone away.    

One major difference is Ohio has a  completly different regular season and muzzloading season and If I remember correctly one buck per season

http://wildlife.ohiodnr.gov/hunting-trapping-and-shooting-sports/hunting-trapping-regulations/season-dates-and-bag-limits

Edited December 24, 2016 by Bowshotmuzzleloader

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It very well do more harm than good if they don't make other changes with it. To add it and not add a new season of its own would not hurt really. It will put more deer in the harvest book and no doubt it will add a pile of bucks to the grand total along with many big ones. Ny shows we have some great deer now in certain parts of the state. Now add some changes and many other parts of the state would see the same!

[skiop]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

 There is plenty of evidence out there that it will make things better   

In what aspect and what evidence are you citing

[wolc123]

They have it in Ohio where things are better.  Can you name any state where it made it worse?  If the vast majority of NY state bowhunters support full inclusion, as was indicated by the "dissapearing" poll  on this site then why shouldn't we have it?  I could understand how you might have missed that one, but can you present a single piece of evidence how it would make things worse.  I just provided 2 how it would make things better.  Just admit it, all you got is selfish elitism.

[skiop]

Define better. No one is prevented in participating in archery season so not sure how you make that selfish statement

You don't think the one week gun season in Ohio is the result of whatever you consider 'better" is

 

[Trial153]

I have hunted Ohio and Kansas for years, both archery seasons are worse off since cross bows are allowed.

[skiop]

26 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

 Just admit it, all you got is selfish elitism.

Your argument would prove to be quite the opposite in that someone's choice of participation is because it's not how you/they want it

[nyslowhand]

Probably have the same effect as when compound bows or in-line MLs were developed & introduced into the array of deer hunting implements, many moons ago. Think that didn't cause an uproar...!?! Pretty sure there's still a devout group of long bow &/or cap/flintlock hunters that continue using their weapon of choice. AND.. are simply viewing modern weapons as the changing times! Not like the introduction of Xbows into the full (SZ) bow season will eventually put whitetails in NYS on the endangered list. Case in point, when they introduced rifles in many SZ counties, it didn't dramatically increase the harvest numbers. IMHO, do NOT see the validity for all the "arm waving" anti-Xbow alarmism among that group of hunters. Putting any of these more effective weapons in the hands of the hunting community doesn't automatically make them better or more productive hunters!!! Just my opinion, take it or ignore it!

[Doc]

The only reason that bow season has the advantages in seasons, regs and bag limits that it does is because NYB and their predecessor convinced everyone that the difficulty and the "handicap" of using a bow for harvest was such that additional easing on season lengths and regulations warranted it. The harvest numbers bear out the validity of those assumptions. BUT.... as success rates continue to climb, there are many today that are starting to question if those benefits afforded to bow hunters are really warranted. I don't think you have to go to far to find attitudes like Stubby's that are fueling a growing division and battle between gun hunters and bow hunters over these benefits that the bowhunting organizations worked very hard to get. I suspect the addition of crossbows and whatever chain of technical advances that will now come from that addition will likely cause even deeper divisions in the hunting community than we already have. There likely will come a day when these divisions will yield changes to bow seasons and regulations that will not be real welcomed by the bowhunting community.

Also, there seems to be a growing DEC willingness (eagerness) to slide firearms into bow seasons. To a certain extent, it has already happened actually. Those intrusions are generally opened up by creeping precedents. Back when compounds were first legalized, some very wise bowhunters argued that compounds would present the precedent to allow other weapons into bow season. And who can deny that that is exactly what happened when the crossbow inclusion argument came along. And even today, that very same path of creeping bowhunting evolution is being overlooked with the inclusion of yet another precedent (crossbows). Every change fosters future changes. It's just the way of things. Now couple that with the DEC's desire to implant muzzleloaders and other firearms into time slots that we worked very hard to secure exclusively for archery, and I think it starts to show the pattern of the future. It really is quite obvious to those who are willing to look at it.

[wolc123]

Did anyone else notice that the dissapearing poll on this site in the bowhunting section was showing that bowhunters supported full inclusion by 2:1 over leaving things like they are.  ?   To me, that say's it all and clearly indicates that it is just a small minority of selfish elitists who are preventing it.    

As far as the "selfish elitist" term goes, the first time I saw or heard that applied to that minority of bowhunters, was from Babe Winkleman on one of his hunting or fishing shows.    Certainly not "politically-correct" but spot-on in describing the reason they don't want the crossbow in "their" season.   Why should people who are too weak, or don't have the time to become proficient with a "real" bow be able to hunt at the same time as them?   If the hordes of handicapped, very old, women and children are allowed into the woods during their "special time", it will make things more difficult for them.   Big, tough, strong guys should get a time when they can have all the deer to themselves, right ? 

It sure appears that they are fighting a loosing battle, but I give them some credit for putting up a good fight.   Much like the Brits during the Revolution, the Rebs during the Civil war, or the Axis during WW 2, they have won quite a few battles, but are clearly on the wrong side in the War.   The minority never prevails over the majority in the long run and the cream always rises to the top, no mater how much you shake the milk.  

Merry Christmas everyone and bring on the Cross-bow.   Certainly we know what side my buddy Jesus would be on with this one, and the side He supported has never and will never loose a War.    Listening to the dying gasps of the loosers is certainly entertaining though, so lets keep it up for a few more pages anyhow.  What else have you got tough guys?              

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by wolc123

[Trial153]

Did anyone else notice that the dissapearing poll on this site in the bowhunting section was showing that bowhunters supported full inclusion by 2:1 over leaving things like they are.  ?   To me, that say's it all and clearly indicates that it is just a small minority of selfish elitists who are preventing it.    
As far as the "selfish elitist" term goes, the first time I saw or heard that applied to that minority of bowhunters, was from Babe Winkleman on one of his hunting or fishing shows.    Certainly not "politically-correct" but spot-on in describing the reason they don't want the crossbow in "their" season.   Why should people who are too weak, or don't have the time to become proficient with a "real" bow be able to hunt at the same time as them?   If the hordes of handicapped, very old, women and children are allowed into the woods during their "special time", it will make things more difficult for them.   Big, tough, strong guys should get a time when they can have all the deer to themselves, right ? 
It sure appears that they are fighting a loosing battle, but I give them some credit for putting up a good fight.   Much like the Brits during the Revolution, the Rebs during the Civil war, or the Axis during WW 2, they have won quite a few battles, but are clearly on the wrong side in the War.   The minority never prevails over the majority in the long run and the cream always rises to the top, no mater how much you shake the milk.  
Merry Christmas everyone and bring on the Cross-bow.   Certainly we know what side my buddy Jesus would be on with this one, and the side He supported has never and will never loose a War.    Listening to the dying gasps of the loosers is certainly entertaining though, so lets keep it up for a few more pages anyhow.  What else have you got tough guys?              
 

WWII and Jesus comparisons? Really ? Go away you freak.

[Core]

It is a logical absolute that full inclusion of crossbow would impact deer numbers, activity, etc. It is beyond question, absolutely unequivocal. To claim otherwise is to claim that this change...had no change; why do some want full inclusion if at the same time they claim it won't impact anything. Of course it will impact; you can't increase deer harvest numbers during bow without impacting the number of deer that exist by gun. There will be less.

The question is to what degree. I don't have the answer. But I can say as I have said that with crossbows now approaching 500 FPS their lethality and ease of use has already eclipsed compound bows by spades, and these advancements in the platform will only continue. How many guys can take a deer at 60 yards with a compound? Damn few. How how many can do it with a 470 FPS crossbow? A heck of a lot more.

[Core]

46 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

we know what side my buddy Jesus would be on with this one, and the side He supported has never and will never loose a War.    Listening to the dying gasps of the loosers is certainly entertaining though, so lets keep it up for a few more pages anyhow.  What else have you got tough guys?            

I genuinely don't believe Jesus has much of an opinion on crossbow inclusion in new york. Frankly, that marginalizes Him in a pretty silly way.

[wolc123]

Please keep them Jesus bumps coming guys.   We just can't get too much of Him as His Birthday is fast approaching.  The more help I can get from you other folks the better.   

[BigVal]

I understand having faith and somewhat bringing it up in an attempt to sway others. But come on man Jesus supports crossbow hunting in nys? I believe there's some other issues to focus the faith on above full inclusion in nys.

[cnymuzguy]

No more impact than allowing the use of rifles in what use to be shotgun areas. Now there are tons of "hunters" sitting field edges and taking shots at 200-300 yds. Including the DH that shoots across a field toward the hillside I hunt on!

[Core]

24 minutes ago, cnymuzguy said:

No more impact than allowing the use of rifles in what use to be shotgun areas. Now there are tons of "hunters" sitting field edges and taking shots at 200-300 yds. Including the DH that shoots across a field toward the hillside I hunt on!

Where I hunt there are no fields really so it wouldn't impact it, but I can see how overall it would for sure. There are definitely a ton of fields full of deer. Anybody know how rifle has impacted harvest number?

[wolc123]

Getting back to the OP's question after the timely Jesus diversion:

I think more deer will be harvested during bow season after full inclusion for two reasons: First, more hunters will be able to participate.  Second, if we assume the crossbow is slightly more effective than the compound, then the harvest success percentage of the participants may increase a bit.  I will admit a little selfishness of my own on this one, as I would love it if my 12 and 13 year old daughters could help me fill the freezer and not just empty it.  I was not able to fill 2 of my 4 DMP's this season and I think I could have easily done that if we had full inclusion.    

I don't see an increased harvest of deer during bow season as a bad thing.  Venison supplies most of my family's protein and less of it usually gets wasted by arrows (or bolts), than it does from bullets.    Also, the warmer weather during bow season makes it more comfortable, especially for the kids.    I live in a zone (9F) that is grossly overpopulated with deer and letting the crossbow in would make it a lot easier to get the herd in balance.   The deer go nocturnal here real fast after the guns start going off.  

As far as what will happen to the longbow, recurve, and compound, I fully support their continued use, after full inclusion, as long as the users put in the time and effort rquired to become profficient in their use.   It is a lot easier to get a bad hit with any of those than a crossbow, which can be fired off a rest, using telescopic sights, and does not need to be drawn with the deer in close.     

Edited December 24, 2016 by wolc123
addition

[greg54]

What is a crossbow/gun? Is it a crossbow with a gun attached to it? 

[nodeerhere]

51 minutes ago, cnymuzguy said:

No more impact than allowing the use of rifles in what use to be shotgun areas. Now there are tons of "hunters" sitting field edges and taking shots at 200-300 yds. Including the DH that shoots across a field toward the hillside I hunt on!

Why more impact. Every gun hunter can pick up a cross gun and go not the woods and kill a deer. U will have lots more people in the woods because it's a point an am and squeeze type of deal. Leave bow hunting alone. I've already heard this year from a few of my buddy's who were hunting with there bows that cross gun hunters were just walking around like they had shotguns. I'm not saying u can't hunt from the ground with a reg bow but ur not walking. Ur sneaking. 

[wolc123]

Is it an over/under or side/side.   If God intended for us to shoot over/unders He would have put our eyes that way.

Edited December 24, 2016 by wolc123