How to tell a friend he isn't doing it right.

[chas0218]

So I have a buddy that told me he only gets about 30lbs. of meat off a deer (110lbs. dressed)  and needs around 8 deer to make it through the year. I shot 2 deer this year and I yielded around 90 lbs. of venison maybe a little more. So I average 45lbs. of venison a deer. I didn't go into the specifics with him but I feel like 30lbs. is really low when you aren't talking yearlings. I mean maybe I strip the deer a little more but I don't take the rib meat mainly the hind quarters, front legs, back straps, and neck. I don't think there is that much waste in the rest of the carcass. I haven't ever saw him cut up a deer so I don't know how much he actually wastes. He is also that type of guy that knows everything like his 300 win mag is no different than my .270 for deer hunting. Do i just let him keep doing his thing but rape his property of deer every year? I mean in 2013 they shot 7 deer 2014 they shot 4 deer off his property this year 9 all including yearlings. He says he wants bigger deer but they shoot everything that walks on 4 legs. I hunt on his property and am very particular with the deer I shoot usually has to be a wall hanger in order for me to pull the trigger of my gun or release. I'll add he it is a 300 acre tract of land so it should hold some deer but for the whole property to hold 6 deer on average is pretty dismal.

[Five Seasons]

2 thoughts.

The first is regarding meat yield. There's a chance he might just be weighing his chops and steaks and not including ground. There's a chance he doesn't ground at all and that could be the difference. There's a lot of meat in the neck and front shoulders that some guys waste, and of course can be lost buy shot placement.

Second thought is that this guy sounds like a killer. And honestly that's his choice. If it's his land and his tags he can do what he wants. But someone who shoots yearlings isn't after big deer. They may "want" big deer, but they're not committed and honestly it makes me think the meat excuse is just an excuse to kill. I don't have an issue with a 300 win mag being used. If I had the money I'd own both a 300 win mag and a 270 so I could have better rounds for deer and bear, but I don't so I went with the 06. The thought that he thinks they're the same is not so far off as in both will kill deer about the same in the right hands. The reason guys pick the 270 over the mag is simply comfort and if they develop a flinch from the mag, accuracy. So the right guy using a win mag isn't any worse off then the 270. Both will do enough damage to the shoulder to lose about the same amount of meat.

Finally, if he's asking for advice I'd give it. if he isn't, let him do his thing.

[grampy]

As a guest, you have to walk the tightrope if you are hunting his land. But you could offer to help cut up his next deer, and see how he goes about it. And offer a tip or two on how to get the most meat out of his deer. Telling a landowner what they should or should not shoot is not the place of a guest. But if you are close, a gentle suggestion or two may be accepted. Phrased, " I was just thinking, what if we did......? What do you think?" But you always have to remember, it's his land to do as he see's fit. Like it or not. Hope it all shakes out well for ya! And I'm no gun expert, but there is quite a difference between a 300 Win mag and a 270! But both will kill a deer very effectively.

[Pygmy]

One thing I have learned in my old age , Grasshopper....

" Few things in life are LESS welcome than unsolicited advice ".....

[dbHunterNY]

i have an assumed easy solution.  offer to bring over some beer and help him cut up a few deer.  then we you see him doing something wrong jokingly bust his balls and say you'll take what meat he's wasting if he's just going to toss it.  when he sees the pile when you're done and it's almost the size of his he'll change.  quietly and not admitting to anything but he will.  you never know what he's doing though to cause it and could be processing it completely right.  say he takes that win mag and shoots the deer in the neck or too foward into the shoulders and then splits the rib cage right up to high in the chest.  right there could be 18 lbs at least on a middle aged buck.  i've gotten anything from 80 lbs to 40 lbs with the exception of a car hit button buck.  i trim everything OCD like probably more than most.  i hate it when i catch guts on a quartering shot.  that means everything inside has to be trimmed and i don't pull rib meat.  seems to happen a lot too.

[growalot]

There's a ballistics chart and yes depends on how he cuts and what he wants...there is ABSOLUTELY no fat nor "silver" on /in my deer cuts I do not fool around with any part of the leg but the Hams...I will not cut and grind ,I cut to grind the day I defrost. So there are no little pieces saved..I thoroughly clean out the neck roasts...those are the only cuts to have any "junk" attached. never use rib meat...So if he is picky..He will get a lot less meat...If he has dogs and feeds them nothing goes to waste. As far as his statement on the guns...looking at that chart...it depends on how far he personally shoots...that may have been his thought behind the statement.

For me personally...I do the work on our land...Even Mr B knows to tread so very lightly on any comments or suggestions.

 

Quote

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by growalot

[dbHunterNY]

9 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

One thing I have learned in my old age , Grasshopper....

" Few things in life are LESS welcome than unsolicited advice ".....

true but you haven't seen something done right and then you quietly change the way you do something like you've been doing it that way the whole time? haha

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, grampy said:

As a guest, you have to walk the tightrope if you are hunting his land. But you could offer to help cut up his next deer, and see how he goes about it. And offer a tip or two on how to get the most meat out of his deer. Telling a landowner what they should or should not shoot is not the place of a guest. But if you are close, a gentle suggestion or two may be accepted. Phrased, " I was just thinking, what if we did......? What do you think?" But you always have to remember, it's his land to do as he see's fit. Like it or not. Hope it all shakes out well for ya! And I'm no gun expert, but there is quite a difference between a 300 Win mag and a 270! But both will kill a deer very effectively.

Yeah I don't want to come off like telling him he is an idiot and usually that is how he takes criticism. So I was thinking of just letting a lying dog lay. He knows I'm picky when it comes to deer and if I take one on his property. He bust my balls all the time "How you going to to have any meat if you don't shoot something" or the best is "I love having you hunt over here because you don't shoot anything." 

1 hour ago, Belo said:

2 thoughts.

The first is regarding meat yield. There's a chance he might just be weighing his chops and steaks and not including ground. There's a chance he doesn't ground at all and that could be the difference. There's a lot of meat in the neck and front shoulders that some guys waste, and of course can be lost buy shot placement.

Second thought is that this guy sounds like a killer. And honestly that's his choice. If it's his land and his tags he can do what he wants. But someone who shoots yearlings isn't after big deer. They may "want" big deer, but they're not committed and honestly it makes me think the meat excuse is just an excuse to kill. I don't have an issue with a 300 win mag being used. If I had the money I'd own both a 300 win mag and a 270 so I could have better rounds for deer and bear, but I don't so I went with the 06. The thought that he thinks they're the same is not so far off as in both will kill deer about the same in the right hands. The reason guys pick the 270 over the mag is simply comfort and if they develop a flinch from the mag, accuracy. So the right guy using a win mag isn't any worse off then the 270. Both will do enough damage to the shoulder to lose about the same amount of meat.

Finally, if he's asking for advice I'd give it. if he isn't, let him do his thing.

Yeah, he does flinch and might be why he shoots the deer where he does. I have noticed down here in the Southern Tier there are a lot more brown it's down hunters and it's "cool" to fill every tag you and your family have. I haven't ever hunted like that and a lot of our same friends don't but definitely more in this area than back at my families farm. He has got better over the years and passes yearlings now that he knows the difference between them and 2.5 year old. Still likes to age 2.5 year old as a 4.5 but he is getting there. Like you said he "wants" big deer but with his habits he isn't going to see many. I do think he likes the killing aspect more than see the deer. I don't make fun of the deer he shoots because I'm just not like that you kill what you want I kill what I want. His property his rules, my property my rules.

51 minutes ago, Pygmy said:

One thing I have learned in my old age , Grasshopper....

" Few things in life are LESS welcome than unsolicited advice ".....

Yes I think this is the best option although he does complain about next to no meat on deer.

50 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

i have an assumed easy solution.  offer to bring over some beer and help him cut up a few deer.  then we you see him doing something wrong jokingly bust his balls and say you'll take what meat he's wasting if he's just going to toss it.  when he sees the pile when you're done and it's almost the size of his he'll change.  quietly and not admitting to anything but he will.  you never know what he's doing though to cause it and could be processing it completely right.  say he takes that win mag and shoots the deer in the neck or too foward into the shoulders and then splits the rib cage right up to high in the chest.  right there could be 18 lbs at least on a middle aged buck.  i've gotten anything from 80 lbs to 40 lbs with the exception of a car hit button buck.  i trim everything OCD like probably more than most.  i hate it when i catch guts on a quartering shot.  that means everything inside has to be trimmed and i don't pull rib meat.  seems to happen a lot too.

I have been thinking about this because we most definitely bust balls. Some of our friends are just brutal to him when it comes to deer hunting. They rip on him anytime he shoots a small buck he has got better about the yearlings he can identify them and does pass on them. He does grind his deer and just more recently started mixing pork with his burger per my wife's suggestion to his wife. I thought about throwing my grinder in the truck and bringing it over he uses one of those kitchen aids to grind his meat and supposedly takes forever. My grinder you can almost fit your fist into and will grind about 15lbs./minute.  A little overkill but it works well. I think that might give me an in. haha all about strategy.

Edited January 5, 2017 by chas0218

[NFA-ADK]

I hear guys who say they want larger deer but shoot everything also.  Not much will change the way they hunt especially when you talk about restrictions or passing young deer.   

With the meat issue I would ask if he needs help one day like stated above and see how he does it.  Then if he does not take all the meat you can show him what he is missing.

Sounds like he will never be a big buck hunter as his trigger finger is itchy.  Real easy to say I want larger bucks but hard to accomplish when anything that hits the property is shot. 

[chas0218]

9 minutes ago, NFA-ADK said:

I hear guys who say they want larger deer but shoot everything also.  Not much will change the way they hunt especially when you talk about restrictions or passing young deer.   

With the meat issue I would ask if he needs help one day like stated above and see how he does it.  Then if he does not take all the meat you can show him what he is missing.

Sounds like he will never be a big buck hunter as his trigger finger is itchy.  Real easy to say I want larger bucks but hard to accomplish when anything that hits the property is shot. 

I have shot some nice deer and have a few mounts. Every time he comes over he always makes comments "They don't get that big around here" I shot one of them off his property and he knows. I usually respond with "They do if they live long enough" not trying to be smart but kind of give him a subtle hint. He usually follows with the amish excuse or something.

[Five Seasons]

3 hours ago, chas0218 said:

I have shot some nice deer and have a few mounts. Every time he comes over he always makes comments "They don't get that big around here" I shot one of them off his property and he knows. I usually respond with "They do if they live long enough" not trying to be smart but kind of give him a subtle hint. He usually follows with the amish excuse or something.

does he bow hunt? that's when I see the big guys. They really only get shot with gun if they're bumped or a hot doe.

[diplomat019]

Here is how you tell him....

 

"Bro. Your not getting enough meat off the deer.   You should be getting 10-15 lbs more than you say you are. Tighten your butcher game up dude"

[chas0218]

26 minutes ago, Belo said:

does he bow hunt? that's when I see the big guys. They really only get shot with gun if they're bumped or a hot doe.

He does and passes deer with the bow but nothing with gun kind of weird. He hunts some of his families other properties that he has no problem passing small bucks and does but on his dad's property he shoots everything.

9 minutes ago, diplomat019 said:

Here is how you tell him....

 

"Bro. Your not getting enough meat off the deer.   You should be getting 10-15 lbs more than you say you are. Tighten your butcher game up dude"

Haha yeah he can be sensitive at times he is the only one that knows how to butcher right compared to the places you can take your deer...

[NYBowhunter]

Im sorry but if you cant have an honest conversation with this guy without him getting bent out of shape, im not quite sure hes a true friend? Just my opinion.

[chas0218]

Haha very true. I'll just tell it how it is, I'm usually like that anyway why should he expect anything different?

[NYBowhunter]

 

11 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Haha very true. I'll just tell it how it is, I'm usually like that anyway why should he expect anything different?

Same here, i was never one to sugar coat anything regardless of who im talking to.

[Doc]

This forum is a valuable learning tool, and the one lesson that can be readily observed here has to do with telling people they are doing something wrong. People do not always take that sort of thing the way it is intended. So perhaps we have amassed enough info here that shows that people like to do everything right, but seldom want to hear such advice from those offering it. You may want to arrange an actual visit during a butchering session. Perhaps there may be something obvious going on where you may make a casual suggestion phrased very carefully.

[Elmo]

Not a true friend if you can't criticize them or make fun of them.

[growalot]

The more I read the replies the more I'm inclined to say ...why bother worrying about saying anything to him...His land his views and if as you say people razz him  when he shoots a young deer...perhaps he is saying what OTHERS want to hear. Then I think, are these guys razzing him  hunting his land and doing so?...Talk about not being much of a friend...yes the more I think about this the more I think something else is going on...He has no problem passing deer on other peoples property. Why should anyone care what he shoots on his? This isn't directed toward you chas, just thoughts on what I'm reading...no one, I mean no one! Should be chastised for what ever animal they choose to shoot and be put on the defensive...ESPECIALLY off their own hunting grounds.

[NYBowhunter]

15 minutes ago, growalot said:

The more I read the replies the more I'm inclined to say ...why bother worrying about saying anything to him...His land his views and if as you say people razz him  when he shoots a young deer...perhaps he is saying what OTHERS want to hear. Then I think, are these guys razzing him  hunting his land and doing so?...Talk about not being much of a friend...yes the more I think about this the more I think something else is going on...He has no problem passing deer on other peoples property. Why should anyone care what he shoots on his? This isn't directed toward you chas, just thoughts on what I'm reading...no one, I mean no one! Should be chastised for what ever animal they choose to shoot and be put on the defensive...ESPECIALLY off their own hunting grounds.

I dont think most comments on here atleast mine had nothing  to do with this guys hunting ethics, i for one could care less what he shoots on his own property.  However as a friend chas should be able to approach this friend and offer up butchering advice without this guy getting defensive. If he does posture up, again not sure hes a true friend.  I for one would have no problem telling one of my firends if they were butchering a deer incorrectly and possibly wasting meat.  Like Elmo said a true friend should have no problem handling meaningful honest feedback.

[growalot]

I never mention ethics, not once. Elmo didnt say meaning ful honest feedback. He said : not a friend if you can't criticise and make fun of them. World of difference in those two statements...Elmo not trying to throw you under the bus here,just correcting his statement.

So to that, my opinion stands more to it than it seems and what he is saying maybe a reaction to this criticism. My personal view..A true friend doesn't need to assume their friends need assistance and have to be told how to do things "better"...A true friend lives by example and allows their friend to take from said examples as he sees them. Personally perhaps if Chas invited him to his house for a beer while butchering..Then if his friend has questions about what he sees he can ask if he wants.

I Can imagine being ribbed and What was that...They are BRUTAL to him about what he shoots...Gosh Golly Gee whiz! Why would anyone ever think he'd become defensive about most stuff hunting related after reading this. 

[Lawdwaz]

My question to the OP is "how important are those 300 acres to you"?

 

[chas0218]

15 hours ago, Lawdwaz said:

My question to the OP is "how important are those 300 acres to you"?

 

Haha, Not entirely but he prefers me up there to others from the past. If I lost the ability to hunt up there it wouldn't be the end of the world by any means, but I sure don't want to loose a friendship over something silly. I like the kid and help up as much as I can, food plots and similar just lacks a little knowledge. 

 

@growalot I get where you're coming from. I almost thought because I hunted there he shot everything because he didn't want me to shoot it but during bow season he does pass on deer on that same tract of land. He is genuinely happy for me if I decide to shoot something on there and hasn't ever made a comment about shooting deer. One year he got a little bent out of shape because I didn't tell him I shot something until after I found it. Not sure if he was having a bad day or something but I made the point to say why would I text him trail cam pictures of wall hangers if I wanted to hide shooting deer. The last people that hunted his property shot whatever and never told him so i thought I was doing him a favor by telling him.

Edited January 6, 2017 by chas0218

[growalot]

Perhaps the shooting anything is a reaction to those guys that are "brutal" to him. His way of saying I won't be intimidated on my own land. If it were me .....I'd have booted them down the drive and been done with it...

Some people tend to cut off their nose to spite their face...

As far as butchering...invite him.over for a beer and to keep you company while you cut up.one of your own before having dinner with him....

Edited January 6, 2017 by growalot

[Five Seasons]

21 hours ago, NYBowhunter said:

Im sorry but if you cant have an honest conversation with this guy without him getting bent out of shape, im not quite sure hes a true friend? Just my opinion.

I agree and disagree. Are you blunt with your wife when she asks if she looks fat in her dress? Point is, despite what we say, dudes can be sensitive. There's not a whole lot of things more manly then killing and butchering a deer. So a guy that might not be doing it right can be touchy. Someone new to something and asking for help will be receptive. A veteran hunter can be very set in their ways and bluntly showing him he's been doing it wrong all these years might not be the route I take. I agree with the ball busting/subtle hint approach.

For example. You're both drinking beers and he's skinning his 4 pointer. You see he leaves a big chunk of meat somewhere. "hey bro, look at all that meat there. Let me show you my trick". He might tell you to f off, but I bet next time he skins one alone he remembers that method.