SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[Buckmaster7600]

But we'll stated,even though I believe in choice.

Have you ever proofread a post?

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[growalot]

Buckmaster.. not going to get into it with you ,other to say, Growalot  heads each of my posts. If you have a problem with them,please feel free to skip reading them.

[Nomad]

1 hour ago, growalot said:

Buckmaster.. not going to get into it with you ,other to say, Growalot  heads each of my posts. If you have a problem with them,please feel free to skip reading them.

I'm going out on a limb here , and saying that post was not proof read .....

[wolc123]

2 hours ago, Death From Above said:

 

To summarize...

If AR are never put in place in NY, hunting will go on as it is, and many like myself will continue to make trips out of state to chase older deer and potentially witness a different rut intensity with what may be an older herd.

IF AR is put in place in NY, it is my hope that those opposed will give it a chance and just might find things will turn out just as it was before, or maybe a bit more exciting due to more deer/bucks viewed per hunt.  This hope/suggestion is once again based on what I have seen/heard from fellow hunters who lived through this very discussion in PA.

Wow, that was a long post. 

You make some good points for the mandatory AR's.  I was previously opposed, but after reading that well-written post (in it's entirety) I think I could at least go along with them for the first half of archery season and the first half of gun season.   As long as I got 2 buck tags, and could still shoot a spike or four point in the second half, I would be happy.  As a pure meat hunter, I have never considered a season completely successful if I did not fill both buck tags.  It has been many years since I have shot one with less than six points anyhow (excluding the scrappy, 2-1/2 year old 5-point that I killed last year mid-rut, that started out as an 8-point).  I have enough shoulder mounts on the wall now, according to my wife.  She struggles a bit to keep them all well-dusted.  Those 2-1/2's give us the best combination of quantity and quality meat and the euro-mounts they are good for are easier for her to keep clean. They are also cheap, which frees up more of my spare cash for foodplots and ammo.  

With a past history in beef cattle, it is hard for me to feel good about killing does. I can't help but to see them more as the source of future-food, rather as food themselves.  Also, the antlers make it easier for me to age the bucks on the hoof.  They provide good grab-handles to drag the carcass to the loader, and nice reminders of successful hunts in years gone by.   I butcher most of my own, and the bucks are considerably faster for me to cut up, always having less fat to trim away.  I do recognize the importance of killing does, in overpopulated areas.  I do my part whenever an opportunity presents itself, as long as I have the tag.  My whole family loves venison, and it takes more than 2 deer to get us thru a year.  About half of the deer we eat are usually does.  When an antlerless harvest turns out to be a BB, it is a cause for celebration.   We were blessed with one of those last year.   Button buck liver, tenderloin and backstrap is about as good as food gets.     

Sorry about changing the subject a bit, but would you say the hunting has gotten better or worse in PA since they allowed full-inclusion of the crossbow a few years ago?   I am ok with the NY regs the way they are now.  The only little tweak I would really like to see is full-inclusion of the crossbow.    That would make it much easier for me to fill my antlerless tags.  In the grossly overpopulated zone where I live (9F), they tend to go fully nocturnal after a week or two of archery pressure.  It is tough for me to get them with a vertical bow, because the rarely travel alone.  Making that draw, around all those eyes, gets me busted most of the time.                    

Edited March 8, 2017 by wolc123

[Doewhacker]

1 hour ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Have you ever proofread a post?

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It's the Kindles fault. Always

[Doewhacker]

25 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

You make some good points for the mandatory AR's.  I was previously opposed, but after reading that well-written post (in it's entirety) I think I could at least go along with them for the first half of archery season and the first half of gun season.   As long as I got 2 buck tags, and could still shoot a spike or four point in the second half, I would be happy.  As a pure meat hunter, I have never considered a season completely successful if I did not fill both buck tags.  It has been many years since I have shot one with less than six points anyhow (excluding the scrappy, 2-1/2 year old 5-point that I killed last year mid-rut, that started out as an 8-point).                      

ARs are meant for guys like you that can't age a deer on the hoof, that 2-1/2 you killed was a 1-1/2, we all saw it posted here various times. It also didn't weigh 160 pounds but we have established that already. 

I'm going to change my position on mandatory ARs, maybe after implementing them and not getting the desired results we can get real change that might do something positive. Sometimes you have to let something burn to the ground before it can be rebuilt. Bring on the ARs!!

[growalot]

please read between the lines on this..." What ever.... "

[buckman4c]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

 Sorry about changing the subject a bit, but would you say the hunting has gotten better or worse in PA since they allowed full-inclusion of the crossbow a few years ago?   I am ok with the NY regs the way they are now.  The only little tweak I would really like to see is full-inclusion of the crossbow.    That would make it much easier for me to fill my antlerless tags.  In the grossly overpopulated zone where I live (9F), they tend to go fully nocturnal after a week or two of archery pressure.  It is tough for me to get them with a vertical bow, because the rarely travel alone.  Making that draw, around all those eyes, gets me busted most of the time.                    

wolc,

  I'm from Pa and have been hunting here for 35 years. I have seen many changes along the way and it's my opinion the deer hunting here has made tremendous strides. To answer your question, crossbow inclusion has not caused negative effects to the herd. In fact, it's also my opinion if the weapon makes the kill cleaner then by all means we should be using the weapon. Some are not as proficient with a bow and some because of age or aliment can't use a bow. The crossbow allowed more hunter participation. Does that mean more deer are killed in bow season than previous? Of course it does, but it's not "overkill" by any means.

  Death From Above did a great job explaining his observations both his visual and those he heard from others. To further this observation I can tell you the following: When I began deer hunting in the 80's, it was nothing to see 25 plus deer a day but often times you didn't see a buck. Any buck, not even a spike. During the 90's I observed a slow decline in deer numbers where I hunted, Again, you could see 10-15 deer in a day but bucks were ghostly. When AR and HR (herd reduction) were introduced, it was total chaos. Hunters bought in to the idea and hammered the doe population where I hunted. Obviously, the deer numbers declined but in virtually one to two years, you could see (in my areas) a change in the dynamics of the herd. At that point in time, you would see on average a handful of deer in a day but there was a very good chance one or more of those deer was a buck. I started seeing fewer doe and more buck. Additionally, not only did I see more bucks but most were branch antlered and not spikes. As the years passed, things stabilized in the areas I hunted. You would see roughly the same number of deer each season and a good percentage of these were bucks. I believe current day deer hunting in Pa is fantastic compared to years gone by. The PA Game Commission has actually begun allowing the deer numbers to increase for most areas of the State. I'm anxious to see the result of increased deer numbers combined with AR. Although, I'm skeptical about allowing this trend to carry on too long. The initial reasoning for AR and HR in Pa was because of habitat concerns and lack of age structure for bucks in the herd.

  Overall, I'm one of the happy guys in Pa. AR is pretty well accepted but HR is another story. Hunters in low deer density areas of the State continue to believe we are still in herd reduction despite the fact that doe tags and season length for doe has been reduced statewide. The problem in those areas is poorer habitat than other areas of the State, predation to some extent and believe it or not fewer hunters which results in those fewer deer being moved less.

  One last point, despite the naysayers in Pa. The PGC or should I say their Biologist have done tons of exhaustive research since the days of Biologist Gary Alt. I find this research mind boggling and anyone with a bit of common sense would realize the work that's gone into this scientific approach to managing whitetail deer. They will admit, it's not all perfect but it's better than throwing darts at the board.

   

Edited March 8, 2017 by buckman4c

[gjs4]

The biggest, if not only reason I support ARs is it should force gun hunters to validate their targets before shooting. Then again, I don't think it will ever happen and know our buck maturity won't change until there is a huge overhaul of the season structure/length and the dec has an actual idea of what is alive and killed annually.


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[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, buckman4c said:

  Death From Above did a great job explaining his observations both his visual and those he heard from others. To further this observation I can tell you the following: When I began deer hunting in the 80's, it was nothing to see 25 plus deer a day but often times you didn't see a buck. Any buck, not even a spike. During the 90's I observed a slow decline in deer numbers where I hunted, Again, you could see 10-15 deer in a day but bucks were ghostly. When AR and HR (herd reduction) were introduced, it was total chaos. Hunters bought in to the idea and hammered the doe population where I hunted. Obviously, the deer numbers declined but in virtually one to two years, you could see (in my areas) a change in the dynamics of the herd. At that point in time, you would see on average a handful of deer in a day but there was a very good chance one or more of those deer was a buck. I started seeing fewer doe and more buck. Additionally, not only did I see more bucks but most were branch antlered and not spikes. As the years passed, things stabilized in the areas I hunted. You would see roughly the same number of deer each season and a good percentage of these were bucks. I believe current day deer hunting in Pa is fantastic compared to years gone by. The PA Game Commission has actually begun allowing the deer numbers to increase for most areas of the State. I'm anxious to see the result of increased deer numbers combined with AR. Although, I'm skeptical about allowing this trend to carry on too long. The initial reasoning for AR and HR in Pa was because of habitat concerns and lack of age structure for bucks in the herd.

  Overall, I'm one of the happy guys in Pa. AR is pretty well accepted but HR is another story. Hunters in low deer density areas of the State continue to believe we are still in herd reduction despite the fact that doe tags and season length for doe has been reduced statewide. The problem in those areas is poorer habitat than other areas of the State, predation to some extent and believe it or not fewer hunters which results in those fewer deer being moved less.

    

Buckman4c,

Your expansion on what I wrote above are great, and I would agree with all of it.  The HR really did a doozy to the northern part of the state IMO, where it seems so many hunters migrate for the opening few days.  There were a couple years where we felt lucky to see a deer or two in a day.  Before that we might see 20-30, but you had to think hard about shooting a one horn spike (it was legal at that point), because if you passed him that might be the only buck you saw.  My how things have changed in PA.  Now I go expecting to see quite a few deer if the weather is decent and hunters get up and move around during the opening few days of the rifle season.  Probably saw 35-40 on opening day this past year, but the best part is not knowing what number and type of bucks you might see.  I have no problem passing up two-year olds in PA now, and quite often that patience pays off.  This year I shot a nice three year old 8 point, and stood next to a 12 year old as he shot his first buck (128" eight point).  Few years back I lucked out and harvested a 150" thirteen point.  Sure, its a lot of luck that goes into all those kills, but I can tell you that it is very unlikely that I would have had nearly the same opportunities back before AR.  There I go talking about big antlers and AR...after just saying above there is more to it than antler size.

Now that I live in NY I no longer bow hunt in PA like I use to.  The bow hunting is where I saw the big differences due to AR.  What a change in the southern part of the state in just a couple years (York County).  I grew up in the southern tier of NY, then really got into archery when I lived in PA.  I'm jealous of the long bow seasons in both of those areas, but it appears that you realize how good you have it now.  Its just hard to expect many bucks to live long enough to grow antlers up here where I hunt, when there is an 8 week gun season vs. a 2 week bow season.  Whenever my wife asks why I need to keep going to the Midwest to chase whitetails I just show here the multiple magazine articles that rank NY dead last in the country for deer hunting.  I love to hunt, always will, even in NY, but I believe that we manage much of this state worse for whitetails than anywhere else.  Guess the bright spot is that it allows me to convince my wife that I need to travel for hunting big bucks.  Its working so far.  Maybe I don't want AR in NY after all...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 hours ago, Doewhacker said:

ARs are meant for guys like you that can't age a deer on the hoof, that 2-1/2 you killed was a 1-1/2, we all saw it posted here various times. It also didn't weigh 160 pounds but we have established that already. 

I'm going to change my position on mandatory ARs, maybe after implementing them and not getting the desired results we can get real change that might do something positive. Sometimes you have to let something burn to the ground before it can be rebuilt. Bring on the ARs!!

Being a so called meat hunter a pic of all those..Trophy's..the wife keeps clean would be interesting?

[G-Man]

The problem is many are not beginning to hunt till they are late 20s or 30s and someone they work with introduce them to it.. Young hunters.. Yes they are just as new as a 14 or 15 year old.. Think of how many of you got small less than 4 a side bucks as your first deer or how many would be undersized. 

To remove a hunters own personal choice and growth experiences by mandating a size that needs to be taken is pretty selfish as older bucks are not needed to reproduce and continue the species. We are doing a good job thru education and it shows by harvest data( if you can trust what in for they get by a call in ..or spot checking 2 places in any opening day..)

I see no reason for this unless they want it in high hunter pressure areas...statelands perhaps...

[chas0218]

On 2/27/2017 at 7:44 PM, ....rob said:

First, is hasn't passed yet. Getting your under garnets of choice in a bunch won't do any good. With that said, it's NY, so it probably will pass. Do I agree with it, NO!

 

Second, look at this site! Most of the people on here won't shoot anything less then a 6 or 8. So why the uproar? Look at the posts, and how many people have stated "I let a real nice 6 pass today, waiting for the big boy I have on cam.". This plays right into hunters telling other others to let the little guys have a pass and only take mature bucks. So what's the big deal? Why complain about a possible law that will allow the smaller bucks to thrive?

As grampy hit on, it should be a choice.

But, people get ticked off even when things go their way. Go figure. 

Because there are more hunters in NY than what are on this site, I don't mind seeing the AR come through if it fails then they can rescind it like they did the anterless only zones. I think they should implement it the first 2 weeks of gun season and be done with it and allow the bow hunters to take what they want. Bow hunting is much more challenging than hunting with a gun and far fewer opportunities to take a deer. A 4 point rule in 8F and on the southern tier would most definitely benefit herd health. There are a ton of brown it's down hunters in the southern tier more than I have meet in other areas of NY.

[Two Track]

Allow bow hunters to take what they want?

Gee,  Bow hunters get to hunt first, have the longest exclusive season and then a 1 week late season, plus can continue to hunt with bow during regular gun season, and a lot have attitude about sharing another bow type (crossbow) in their season.  If you modify a long bow or compound to hold the arrow for someone with disabilities, doesn't it look like a rotated crossbow?

AR's should be for all seasons or none, not any exclusive hunting implement.

Since I do not bow hunt due to a shoulder issue, what if I said AR's are great but only in bow season and must have 4 point each side, excluding brow tines?  This would leave more deer options for me if i get to shoot anything.

It doesn't matter what implement you hunt with, you have to be at the right place and time for what implement you are using.  Ever year during gun season I have come up on other hunters in full camo (boots to full-hooded jacket and face paint) that also just gun(also in full camo - stock to barrel).  I would never be able to see them in the brush 60 + yards away.  So I have to hunt accordingly, no extreme shotgun distances.  So a good bow hunter and I both have the similar shooting ranges. Once i take a shot, bang, deer is down or gone - Archer may have second chance.

It there was a real deer over-population issue and they wanted to reduce doe numbers, it would be fair to say that your first deer has to be a doe, no matter what season you hunt.  Not only bow hunters, or only muzzleloaders, just gun hunters.  Just a flat rule across all hunting implements.

If we jostle for regulations that favor only our own favorite implement or method, we are interfering with other hunters rights and privileges.  If we do not support each other, where will this leave us in the end?

If AR's are needed is one item, not for a particular implement, but for all. 

Then it is where should AR's be regulated - state legislature, a slow tedious process to change anything, or by the DEC which actually is in the field to make observations and can make adjustments easier. How many persons in the NY assembly would actually go out to see what the herds look like and other concerns involving wildlife.  They have many other concerns in the state to consider.  For the most part, it is just another item to look at on print out of a bill to vote on for the legislators.

 

 

 

[chas0218]

Allow bow hunters to take what they want?
Gee,  Bow hunters get to hunt first, have the longest exclusive season and then a 1 week late season, plus can continue to hunt with bow during regular gun season, and a lot have attitude about sharing another bow type (crossbow) in their season.  If you modify a long bow or compound to hold the arrow for someone with disabilities, doesn't it look like a rotated crossbow?
AR's should be for all seasons or none, not any exclusive hunting implement.
Since I do not bow hunt due to a shoulder issue, what if I said AR's are great but only in bow season and must have 4 point each side, excluding brow tines?  This would leave more deer options for me if i get to shoot anything.
It doesn't matter what implement you hunt with, you have to be at the right place and time for what implement you are using.  Ever year during gun season I have come up on other hunters in full camo (boots to full-hooded jacket and face paint) that also just gun(also in full camo - stock to barrel).  I would never be able to see them in the brush 60 + yards away.  So I have to hunt accordingly, no extreme shotgun distances.  So a good bow hunter and I both have the similar shooting ranges. Once i take a shot, bang, deer is down or gone - Archer may have second chance.
It there was a real deer over-population issue and they wanted to reduce doe numbers, it would be fair to say that your first deer has to be a doe, no matter what season you hunt.  Not only bow hunters, or only muzzleloaders, just gun hunters.  Just a flat rule across all hunting implements.
If we jostle for regulations that favor only our own favorite implement or method, we are interfering with other hunters rights and privileges.  If we do not support each other, where will this leave us in the end?
If AR's are needed is one item, not for a particular implement, but for all. 
Then it is where should AR's be regulated - state legislature, a slow tedious process to change anything, or by the DEC which actually is in the field to make observations and can make adjustments easier. How many persons in the NY assembly would actually go out to see what the herds look like and other concerns involving wildlife.  They have many other concerns in the state to consider.  For the most part, it is just another item to look at on print out of a bill to vote on for the legislators.
 
 
 

Last i checked crossbow falls in bow season, get over yourself no reason gun season couldn't have AR the first 2 weeks. Gun season is almost 4 weeks long. You're not limiting all of gun season so what's the problem? That spike walking around on opening day will surely be there the day after AR are over so you can shoot him and his 4 point older brother. It just has those guys like yourself holding off for 2 weeks before you blast a yearling.

You think guns and bows are equivalent because that is what your arguing right now. Also since when did browtines not count? If it is longer than 1" it counts as a point. Your pulling stuff out your bung.

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[tuckersdaddy]

Last i checked crossbow falls in bow season, get over yourself no reason gun season couldn't have AR the first 2 weeks. Gun season is almost 4 weeks long. You're not limiting all of gun season so what's the problem? That spike walking around on opening day will surely be there the day after AR are over so you can shoot him and his 4 point older brother. It just has those guys like yourself holding off for 2 weeks before you blast a yearling.

You think guns and bows are equivalent because that is what your arguing right now. Also since when did browtines not count? If it is longer than 1" it counts as a point. Your pulling stuff out your bung.

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Heres the perfect reason for no ARs... I bought my licsens... And I dont need you or any poltician telling me that a 4 point isnt a trophy. If rack hunting is YOUR thing then go do it. Get off your butt, out of your stand and go find them. Big Bucks are there... State land, privite, doesnt matter. Dont cut my choices because you want 20 bulwinkles in front of your stand everyday. If you prefer to hunt in other states by...go. NY offers challenges you wont find any where else. Want to get lost for a week and possibly not see anything try out the ADk. Want to hunt farmland? Buy a lease in western NY. Want tags filled try CNY stateland... But you wouldnt know that sitting inyour stand blaming gun hunters and lack of ARs for not seeing Bullwinkle.

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[Buckmaster7600]

Heres the perfect reason for no ARs... I bought my licsens... And I dont need you or any poltician telling me that a 4 point isnt a trophy. If rack hunting is YOUR thing then go do it. Get off your butt, out of your stand and go find them. Big Bucks are there... State land, privite, doesnt matter. Dont cut my choices because you want 20 bulwinkles in front of your stand everyday. If you prefer to hunt in other states by...go. NY offers challenges you wont find any where else. Want to get lost for a week and possibly not see anything try out the ADk. Want to hunt farmland? Buy a lease in western NY. Want tags filled try CNY stateland... But you wouldnt know that sitting inyour stand blaming gun hunters and lack of ARs for not seeing Bullwinkle.

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I'm not for AR's but your argument isn't a valid one, the state already tells you what "isn't a trophy" a antlered deer has to have a 3" spike.


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[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, tuckersdaddy said:

Heres the perfect reason for no ARs... I bought my licsens... And I dont need you or any poltician telling me that a 4 point isnt a trophy. If rack hunting is YOUR thing then go do it. Get off your butt, out of your stand and go find them. Big Bucks are there... State land, privite, doesnt matter. Dont cut my choices because you want 20 bulwinkles in front of your stand everyday. If you prefer to hunt in other states by...go. NY offers challenges you wont find any where else. Want to get lost for a week and possibly not see anything try out the ADk. Want to hunt farmland? Buy a lease in western NY. Want tags filled try CNY stateland... But you wouldnt know that sitting inyour stand blaming gun hunters and lack of ARs for not seeing Bullwinkle.

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And I think your post is an example of exactly why we need ARs in NY.

You think that a supporter of antler restrictions supports the policy just so that YOU can’t shoot year old bucks, and so that HE/SHE can shoot more big bucks.  I say that you are missing the big picture. 

The DEC already regulates what we can harvest as hunters, and what we cannot.  If you aren’t sure what I mean, then please look at your tags closely and you will notice some are for antlered deer and some are for antlerless.   They don’t regulate the ratio of sex harvest based on what they think we want to shoot as hunters, but rather it is an attempt to maintain a healthy herd.  We need bucks and does to make fawns, right?  Did you ever think that through ARs they might be attempting to control what portion of the buck harvest is yearling bucks to keep a more natural structured deer herd?  Maybe AR in the state’s eyes is not about keeping you from shooting all those little bucks you so badly want to be able to kill, but maybe it is about trying to help restore the age structure in the deer herd to a more natural age range.  Do you think it is possible that we as NY hunters can influence the natural proportion of younger vs. mature bucks that survive year to year?  I think we do.

For the record, I hate when the government intrudes more and more in our lives in an attempt to help us live our lives in a way they feel might be better.  But maybe, just maybe, this scenario isn’t an attempt to help you live your hunting life, but help some deer live longer lives instead…therefor giving us a more natural age structure in our deer herd.   When I read posts like yours, and then I read about the DEC trying to “educate” NY hunters about how letting young bucks go will help the deer herd as well as potentially improving our hunting, I realize that asking hunters in this state to understand this and then implement it will likely never work.  IF the DEC really believes that our herd can be benefited by protecting young bucks, then they shouldn’t ask, they should act.  So many other states show through harvest regulations (in many different ways) that they feel this is important.  Unfortunately, sometimes we evaluate the success of measures such as these simply by looking whether we are able to shoot bigger bucks.  

I said in a post above, I respect opposing views.  However, its hard to hear all this me, me, me as the only reason why we shouldn’t consider implementing a policy that might improve the deer, deer, deer. 

Lastly, can’t help but also comment on your “get off your butt and go find them comment” concerning shooting bigger bucks.  We both know that if that was remotely true that you would be shooting big bucks each year, and you’d have no reason to shoot those little ones.  Then we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, would we?

[tuckersdaddy]

 

And I think your post is an example of exactly why we need ARs in NY.

You think that a supporter of antler restrictions supports the policy just so that YOU can’t shoot year old bucks, and so that HE/SHE can shoot more big bucks.  I say that you are missing the big picture. 

The DEC already regulates what we can harvest as hunters, and what we cannot.  If you aren’t sure what I mean, then please look at your tags closely and you will notice some are for antlered deer and some are for antlerless.   They don’t regulate the ratio of sex harvest based on what they think we want to shoot as hunters, but rather it is an attempt to maintain a healthy herd.  We need bucks and does to make fawns, right?  Did you ever think that through ARs they might be attempting to control what portion of the buck harvest is yearling bucks to keep a more natural structured deer herd?  Maybe AR in the state’s eyes is not about keeping you from shooting all those little bucks you so badly want to be able to kill, but maybe it is about trying to help restore the age structure in the deer herd to a more natural age range.  Do you think it is possible that we as NY hunters can influence the natural proportion of younger vs. mature bucks that survive year to year?  I think we do.

For the record, I hate when the government intrudes more and more in our lives in an attempt to help us live our lives in a way they feel might be better.  But maybe, just maybe, this scenario isn’t an attempt to help you live your hunting life, but help some deer live longer lives instead…therefor giving us a more natural age structure in our deer herd.   When I read posts like yours, and then I read about the DEC trying to “educate” NY hunters about how letting young bucks go will help the deer herd as well as potentially improving our hunting, I realize that asking hunters in this state to understand this and then implement it will likely never work.  IF the DEC really believes that our herd can be benefited by protecting young bucks, then they shouldn’t ask, they should act.  So many other states show through harvest regulations (in many different ways) that they feel this is important.  Unfortunately, sometimes we evaluate the success of measures such as these simply by looking whether we are able to shoot bigger bucks.  

I said in a post above, I respect opposing views.  However, its hard to hear all this me, me, me as the only reason why we shouldn’t consider implementing a policy that might improve the deer, deer, deer. 

Lastly, can’t help but also comment on your “get off your butt and go find them comment” concerning shooting bigger bucks.  We both know that if that was remotely true that you would be shooting big bucks each year, and you’d have no reason to shoot those little ones.  Then we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, would we?

No I understand. Im not sure you do. This guy scored a 152 and was shot.... with a gun on state land. He was watched from mid july and pursued all of bow season and into the 3rd week of regular season.... He was vary smart and i got vary lucky... Now before you go on about this could be the norm., What makes him special is the amount of time, energy, and patients that went in to taking him. They exsist if you get out of your stand. At this point in life I do not have the time for that type of pursuit nor the desire to put another on the wall, but still enjoy time afield with family and friends during the season... normally the only time I get to see some. Now to have someone dictate to me what the succsessfull hunt will be is unacceptable. If I choose to take a 4point then thats what I put my tag on, If I let him pass its my tag I eat. This whole notion that we can make it better and it will be the best for everyone is getting old. Now when I tag a 4 point, the small 8 becomes a bigger 10... Now to assume that every 1 1/12 yr old buck is shot during regular season sounds like the typical bow hunter response. Its absurd to think that all of them are being taken before they mature... If they did how did this one come about? Now the other part of the age equation I never here from all this AR crap is what about Does that are not 3 yrs or older being taken. All this nonsence is about a group who want to attemp to adjust the hurd to thier style of hunting rather then adjust your style of huntimg to the hurd.

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[tuckersdaddy]

I'm not for AR's but your argument isn't a valid one, the state already tells you what "isn't a trophy" a antlered deer has to have a 3" spike.


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Thats what DMP permits are for....

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[Death From Above]

1 hour ago, tuckersdaddy said:

No I understand. Im not sure you do. This guy scored a 152 and was shot.... with a gun on state land. He was watched from mid july and pursued all of bow season and into the 3rd week of regular season.... He was vary smart and i got vary lucky... Now before you go on about this could be the norm., What makes him special is the amount of time, energy, and patients that went in to taking him. They exsist if you get out of your stand. At this point in life I do not have the time for that type of pursuit nor the desire to put another on the wall, but still enjoy time afield with family and friends during the season... normally the only time I get to see some. Now to have someone dictate to me what the succsessfull hunt will be is unacceptable. If I choose to take a 4point then thats what I put my tag on, If I let him pass its my tag I eat. This whole notion that we can make it better and it will be the best for everyone is getting old. Now when I tag a 4 point, the small 8 becomes a bigger 10... Now to assume that every 1 1/12 yr old buck is shot during regular season sounds like the typical bow hunter response. Its absurd to think that all of them are being taken before they mature... If they did how did this one come about? Now the other part of the age equation I never here from all this AR crap is what about Does that are not 3 yrs or older being taken. All this nonsence is about a group who want to attemp to adjust the hurd to thier style of hunting rather then adjust your style of huntimg to the hurd.

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So big bucks exist if I get out of my stand?  Is that what I have been doing wrong all these years?

I don’t remember ever stating that I have not had the good fortune to harvest nice, or mature bucks in NY.  If I post a few pictures of several bucks hanging on my wall that might even score higher than the one on your wall does that mean that my preferred method to hunt (from a tree stand) is better than yours?  Or would it just serve to disprove that AR would help NY produce a healthier deer herd, all because I have shot some well scoring antlered bucks? 

I never said that deer like the one you posted didn’t exist.  Whether you would like to agree or not I am stating that NY could stand to have more of them out there like that though.  NOT just so more can be killed by the evil tree stand bow hunters, but so more are around to contribute to a healthier and more natural herd.  Won’t elaborate on any of that though, because I am fairly certain that you would dismiss it anyways as non-sense.  After all, it fits into that science crap you referenced to above.

We are all hunters, and maybe we aren’t all as proficient as you are at the art.  But to say that the only reason that some hunters want AR, or that states legislate AR just because bow hunters want to train the deer to walk by their stands so that they can be lazy is ridiculous - IMO.  But that is your opinion, you have made that clear.  Funny that so many rifle hunters in PA have argued that the bow hunters are to blame for killing too many of the bigger bucks prior to gun season opening.  Guess the deer in that state don’t hide in places that only gun hunters who get off their butts and out of their stands can find them.  OR...your theory may be correct and because PA now has AR the bucks have been properly trained to walk by bow hunters on stand...and AR screwed the gun hunters. 

Won’t even attempt to address your concern about why you never hear about 3-year old does from AR proponents.  If you can’t figure out why that is, then I certainly can’t help you.

Nice buck by the way!

[Buckmaster7600]

Thats what DMP permits are for....

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What's a dmp? We haven't gotten them in years, not even my landowners. My point is it's ok for the gov. To tell you it's got to have 3" spike but not 3pts? That doesn't make sense at all.


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[growalot]

What good are 3-4 points when all they have to be is an inch long? Been a few days since I read the new proposal ,I ,believe that's what I recall,am I wrong? I've past several over the years and last year that looked like long horns with points 1-3 " that would have been legal  in the 4 point area. All skinny lanky young buck that anyone could shoot and 21/2 year olds. See points or not when they start as spikes at 11/2 it takes time to grow those very long main beams with  bumps...21/2. How are they saved? How's it help the herd again?

Phade and do not agree on much, but he is so very correct as to the size of the holes in this.

 

[Doc]

I have to wonder how much of the diminishing hunter population is due to these kinds of arguments about what size or age of a deer is adequate for taking pride in a harvest. So many people think it is their duty to tell you what is a trophy, or what deer you are entitled to feel proud of shooting. I'm thinking hunters are getting tired of constantly being told that the deer that they were so proud to take is really more of a thing of shame than something that they should be proud of and enjoy the meat from. The sport is being taken over by elitist that are only too ready to criticize you for shooting this deer or that deer and then explaining to you, on and on ...ad nausea, how bad a hunter you are to take a deer that size. We used to do a version of that back in the old days, but it was done in a teasing and light-hearted way that was clear to be all in fun. Today these elitist hunters are quick to explain, in all seriousness, what a piece of crap you are for taking a small deer and then explain in detail exactly why you are to be considered to be scum. Frankly, I am getting sick and tired of it and I'm sure there are many who simply threw in the towel in disgust and left hunting completely. Who really wants to take up a sport that can in most places be damned tough at best, and then when you are finally successful, you are mocked and ridiculed about what a bad hunter you are for shooting the deer that just a few minutes before you proudly thought represented success?

Yes, some are more than happy to be driving hunters out of the sport with this nonsense (more deer for them), but they are taking a very short-sighted view of the phenomenon of shrinking hunter population and the political ramifications of the future of hunting. 

[growalot]

Another area of the state has been added to the night time baiting sharp shooting list...shooting deer up to March 31.  Why that date?, because it's a time of year they are most likely to come into the BAIT piles. I'm thinking they don't have racks to count points on...just killing deer... So here we have the state of NY under a spot light showing their lack of concern over two big hunter restrictions...baiting and what may become antler restrictions. There really is no way to explain this glaring contradiction.