2010 Deer take

[Pygmy]

I agree, Bubba... 1.5 year old 8 points are very common in my area...

[SteveB]

Observation here:

If we can't accept the 45% stat as reliable, how can we accept the claims of 60% + of the

1.5 bucks being taken every year? Same formula used for both? How is one any more accurate then the other?

[growalot]

Did I miss it? while estimating how many ppl didn't report there kills...I always do...I also always hang our deer on a pole in our hedge row..clearly visible by two different roads..nothing to hide...But I know for a Fact that there are guys around here and I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut...Also across the state that shoot deer.... don't report then go out to shoot a "Bigger" deer to report...Then hide them in barns garages and even idiot friends garages....Did the EC add these guys to their #'s?....Also every single hunter I know butchers their own deer...and not everyone taking a big buck goes out and has it mounted...what good are any of their #'s?

[steve863]

Statistics can be quite accurate, but I really don't think they are when it comes to the NYS deer kill.  Just way too many assumptions on the DEC's part in my opinion.  Those that don't get reported by hunters cannot be made up by visiting butcher shops.  As others have mentioned, there are way too many variables and things that the DEC can't possibly get a good statistical fix on.  Plus, I've heard so many people complain over the last couple of years that they aren't seeing or shooting nearly as many deer, so how could hunters be shooting as many or more deer this past year than earlier years??  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the DEC's kill totals are off by as many as 50,000 deer.  Plus, I sure know that there are many fewer hunters actually out hunting these days compared to yesteryear, so who exactly is doing all this killing?  These days you see guys hunting the first couple of days and then they hang it up.  And with fewer deer management permits being given out over the last few years, how could fewer hunters be killing just as many deer?  Just doesn't add up in my opinion. 

[nyantler]

I can see where fewer hunters could be killing more deer... there are quite a bit more tags available than there ever was when i was growing up.. but, that said.. with the dismal number of reports each year... I also find it hard to see how statistics could possibly help to get accurate numbers... usually good statistics are based on solid numbers and probabilities... neither of which th DEC has...

[MountainHunter]

What is incredibly unfortunate is the management decisions that are being based on these numbers that have no validity!

[gjs4]

What is incredibly unfortunate is the management decisions that are being based on these numbers that have no validity!

License sales are all that are even attempted to be managed in this state.

[G-Man]

not to get off the subject of deer,but i asked the dec why there is not a 2 bird fall limit on turkeys statewide specfically wny, their response was that they sell a lot of turkey tags... so of course i asked how many actually hunt fall turkey as archery season is open for deer,duck season was open, ect... their response was we have no idea.. if they can't even tell how many fall turkey hunters are out there (i bet a lot less than deer hunters) they don't stand a chance of getting any numbers right for the take of any game!!!

[Larry]

Prove their numbers are wrong. Do you have better numbers?  If you have numbers you can prove are right maybe you can get a job as deer management program leader. Then you can be told you don’t know what you are doing by people with little or no knowledge of wildlife management.

If their numbers are wrong then blame the 55% of us who are POACHING by not reporting are kill.

[MountainHunter]

Proving them wrong is easy. Look how they compile their data. What else do you need to know?

You don't have to be a biologist to do what they do. Perhaps a mathematician, and not very good ones at that.

[growalot]

Years ago after someone messed up 8m and they started to drastically reduce doe  tags ...I started to see huge increases in 8N's doe tag #'s....I called the DEC and said I wanted to do deer reports...because they weren't taking into account that 8M guys were loading up on 8N tags now. They needed to see what was happening before they screwed up 8N as well....What I got was reports saying to monitor 8H that's were it was needed....Here we are....they had to cut the # of doe tags in half last year in 8N...they kept sending me things to do reports for 8H and I just kept scratching out and sending back 8N info

When they feel they have no need to listen to the ppl out in the field ...for me daily and I'm sure many others...ie loggers that hunt..hell even UPS guys that hunt...then they are doomed to consistently have to play the "Oooppsss fix it game"

[gjs4]

Prove their numbers are wrong. Do you have better numbers?  If you have numbers you can prove are right maybe you can get a job as deer management program leader. Then you can be told you don’t know what you are doing by people with little or no knowledge of wildlife management.

  If their numbers are wrong then blame the 55% of us who are POACHING by not reporting are kill.

prove the people who get paid to compile them even have a clue (let alone any data) then we can get back to the grassroots/better undertsanding version if the other posts havent painted that picture for you yet....

[erussell]

If you can't prove it with facts baffle them with bullcrap approach  ;D

[nyantler]

Prove their numbers are wrong. Do you have better numbers?  If you have numbers you can prove are right maybe you can get a job as deer management program leader. Then you can be told you don’t know what you are doing by people with little or no knowledge of wildlife management.

  If their numbers are wrong then blame the 55% of us who are POACHING by not reporting are kill.

I think we already have an idea who has little or no knowledge of wildlife management... I think it might be the deer management program leader...

[wztirem]

Does anyone know how many deer die from coyote predation,disease,old age and from motor vehicles. Even if hunter reporting rates were 100% would it make any difference in the DEC deer management policy. I would think that habit degradation due to overbrowsing by deer is the most important statistic when it comes to deer management and this important topic is never discussed or considered.

The DEC has a tough job. Consider dwindling hunter numbers and the fact the majority of land available for deer hunting (excluding the ADAKS) lies in private handes. The DEC cannot control deer populations in those areas.

Alas, they are in a no win situation.

[Doc]

The DEC has some black magic, statistical management schemes. Those schemes all have "deer take" as a fundamental input. The whole system is based of that input. If we even partially believe that they have any clue as to what they are doing, we definitely are not helping what they are trying to do by breaking the law that states that you must report your harvest. So yes, if you believe in their systems at all, you have to believe that hunter harvest reports should approach as close to 100% as possible. In terms of other kinds of deer deaths, I would imagine that they have concocted some other statistical factors to account for coyote predation, car kills, disease victims, etc.

[nyantler]

I don't really think most hunters care about the deer numbers anyway... whether they get 1 tag or a dozen tags ... most hunters will try to fill them all ... regardless of what the deer population is in their area... and then they will complain about not seeing deer the next year.. intent on still filling every tag that they have again.

[Doc]

I don't really think most hunters care about the deer numbers anyway... whether they get 1 tag or a dozen tags ... most hunters will try to fill them all ... regardless of what the deer population is in their area... and then they will complain about not seeing deer the next year.. intent on still filling every tag that they have again.

For those loyal DEC supporters, I think they believe that that is exactly what they are supposed to do. The standard party line is that permits are allocated by our game management agency because they believe they should be filled in order to manage the deer population. Of course we don't all believe that, but those that do probably should not be bad-mouthed too bad. They are simply doing what the DEC tells them is needed for good deer management. Frankly, I don't have a bit of confidence in their statistical methods of management, but whether by actual proper knowledge and procedures or just plain good luck, I have to admit that recent results seem to be acceptable in my hunting area at least. I also have to admit that I couldn't do their job any better or even as well. So if other hunters are following the recommendations of the DEC and filling whatever tags that are issued to them, I guess I will not fault them for it. In fact, I will say that if they are able to actually fill all their tags then it's likely that the herd is not in terrible shape wherever they are hunting.

[nyantler]

I agree Doc... I was speaking to the hunters that are not DEC supporters who complain about the lack of deer on their hunting property... and the number of tags being issued.. yet still find it necessary to fill all of their tags... If I think there is a problem with low deer numbers in my hunting area... I certainly am not going to do anything to make it worse... I think most hunters could care less about the deer population when it comes to having to make a choice between population of deer in their hunting area and filling their tags. In fact, they don't even care about who makes the recommendations for number of tags issued as long as the recommendation is for more tags

[erussell]

I try like crazy to fill out all my tags every yr. I just don't do it all on the same pc of property. Once I shoot a deer on a pc of property I move on to another one. I have only filled all my tags once and have never been able to shoot two bucks in one yr. I could eat Venison every day,365 days a yr. I make mostly breakfast sausage, steaks and stew meat. This yr I'm going to take a whole deer down to have it made into pepperonie sticks at a place in PA. Thier so good.

[nyantler]

I try like crazy to fill out all my tags every yr. I just don't do it all on the same pc of property. Once I shoot a deer on a pc of property I move on to another one. I have only filled all my tags once and have never been able to shoot two bucks in one yr. I could eat Venison every day,365 days a yr. I make mostly breakfast sausage, steaks and stew meat. This yr I'm going to take a whole deer down to have it made into pepperonie sticks at a place in PA. Thier so good.

I try to fill 3 tags a year.. 1 buck and 2 doe.. 1 doe of which I donated to the Venison drive... I am not opposed to filling tags at all.. like Doc said.. they give them out for a reason.. but common sense says that if you aren't seeing many deer in one area.. taking more isn't going to solve the problem.. hunting in a different area would make much more sense if you feel it necessary to fill all your tags... my biggest point was that most hunters really don't care about the population as long as they have a lot of tags to fill.