Arrow spine question

[thatguy]

So I'm a hunter on the cheap. I'm a big proponent of used and budget equipment when it comes to hunting, after all it's about the cleanest kill, not the most expensive equipment. With that said, my bow is an old hoyt raider, it has wheels, not cams. I shoot 70lbs @31" draw and shoot carbon arrows to maximize my speed (its more than fast enough to kill deer). So here's the issue...

I have the bow tuned surpringly well with the generic Allen (i think they're actually called kryptos?) arrows that you buy at walmart individually for about $3-4. The 31" arrows say theyre rated for up to 70lbs and have a 9.6GPI. Weeelllll i decided that it was time for the slightest of upgrades and bought a box of the victory decimators (aka v-force) from Dick's while they were on their anual 50% off sale. I bought the 350 spine arrows and didnt have them cut as they were already 31". I figured a lighter arrow, rated for my draw weight, with actual blazer veins would be an improvment but when i shoot them they fly fast and sloppy and WAY high-left. Heres the thing, these arrows are pretty similar to my allens, the biggest differences are that theyre 8.7GPI and the 31" length is measured in shaft alone, not from the nocking point so theyre about half an inch longer. The thing is, these arrows FEEL like they are underspined for my bow but I cant really figure out how, its an old bow and doesn't have nearly as much speed or power at the release as a modern compound and it says on the box that they are rated up to 70lbs with modern bows. I can only cut them about an inch before my broadhead ends up burried in my whiskerbiscuit, but i don't know if that would be enough to get rid of that sloppy shot.

anyone have any similar issues or have any problems with those arrows? For now my plan was to buy a few more of those delightfuly cheap allen arrows but they apparently went on sale near me and i cant find any. Meanwhile Im down to 1 left, and 6 arrows that i cant hit a barn with.

 

[Hock3y24]

For reference i did use the decimator 350s this year for practice and still use them as back up. i shoot an Elite energy 32 27.5 dl 65 lb with 27.75 inch arrows. I have never had these arrows fly sloppy. In my opinion you need a 300 spine arrow, its better to be a touch stiff than the other way around. Also consider that these are .006 straightness arrows and your using them at full length. I shorten them a lot and they perform well. I am also budget minded in archery, you can find some good used arrows on archery talk or if you want new id recommend some Black eagles in .003 or .001 straightness for that length. There prices are pretty good.

[Doewhacker]

Yup weak spine. 

Two options, 1 turn the weight down on your bow. 2 Buy property spined arrows. 

The charts manufacturers use are based on a 28 inch arrow most times. I went through this a few years ago with a 70# draw and a 29 inch DL. Had to go with the .300 spine. Try dropping the weight to 60-65. 

[TurtleFace]

Those are the arrows I've tuned my bow and sights on at 26in 53/59#. I've got a consistent seperation between the two spines on my target. My personal results I'd say are because of a .7 grain per inch bump up.

[moog5050]

Confused as to why people think they are underspinned?  If the OP is a right hander, left suggests too stiff.  I have no idea what a raider is or its specs and a 350 seems reasonable for 70lbs if not underspinned at 31" but left indicates a stiff spine.

Edited October 5, 2017 by moog5050

[rob-c]

Are the arrows the same diameter ? Did you recheck your tune with the new arrows, are they coming out of the bow straight ? Are the blazers hitting anywhere? 

[thatguy]

Hey all, let me fill in a few gaps:

1. The arrows are actually rated for 60-75lbs and come precut at 31" I dont have the chart handy but i think its safe to assume that they consider the arrow safe up to 75lbs even if it is left uncut, otherwise they would sell them precut to 28 or 29", at least thats how i make sense of it. I understand what you're all saying but you have to remember this is an OLD bow, its slow, 70lbs isnt the same on every bow. My old 92 caprice had a 350 V8 engine but that doesnt mean it could have kept up with a 2017 camaro.

2. The diameters between my old and new arrows are about the same, i haven't actually checked them with a micrometer but i would say within .002 

3. I haven't checked the straightness, they advertise .006 and I've had no reason to suspect otherwise. I actually worked as part/shaft straightener in a machine shop for a while so i have an eye for it. (And available equipment if need be.)

4. I, like Moog5050, considered too stiff of a spine at one point also. However the amount of wobble that i feel when i shoot these makes me think otherwise. They feel like I'm shooting a cannonball, theyre fast and all over the place. They aren't hitting even slightly straight despite my best efforts to previously tune them. They almost make me think that theyre hitting something on tbe way off the string, which leads me to...

5. As far as i can tell they arent hitting anything. The blazers move smoothly through the whiskerbuiscut when pulled through by hand and being essentially the same size as my other arrows there shouldn't be anything else coming into contact with them based on my setup.

6. It should be noted that i test shot a variety of other generic walmart arrows all simply labeled along the lines of 35-70lbs or 40-75lbs and all of them, despite a few differences in length, diameter and weight, hit within a few inches of eachother. At no point did i think i was shooting something completely not meant for my bow until i shot these decimators.

Like i said, i can probably cut an inch off of them, maybe 1.5" before theyre just useless to me... Turning down the bow isnt much of an option for me, the difference in speed makes my groupings a little less than desired when below 70lbs. 

[Doewhacker]

Just paper tune it.

Speed doesn't equal accuracy, carry on.

[rob-c]

Pulling a arrow through your rest will not show all possible contact points. Go steal one of the wife's lipstick tubes and put a coating on the edge of your vanes and shoot the arrow. Your arrow could be flexing into something , look for lipstick on your bow, rest etc. are  the new arrows grouping together ? If so , you need to retune your bow to these arrows. Remember the charts are only a recommendation. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by rob-c

[thatguy]

@Doewhacker draw weight = comfort = better groupings. At least for me. I'm a big guy, I'm not Mr. Muscles by any means but on my bow <70lbs feels...well...wrong.

Edited October 5, 2017 by thatguy

[thatguy]

1 hour ago, rob-c said:

Pulling a arrow through your rest will not show all possible contact points. Go steal one of the wife's lipstick tubes and put a coating on the edge of your vanes and shoot the arrow. Your arrow could be flexing into something , look for lipstick on your bow, rest etc. are  the new arrows grouping together ? If so , you need to retune your bow to these arrows. Remember the charts are only a recommendation. 

I like the lipstick idea. There is potential to the idea that some how they go so far off center at release that they're already crooked enough going through the rest that they're hitting it. I could give it a shot. I'm currently sitting around attempting to heal a back injury, when I'm physically up for it I will give that a try...probably not in the next week or so. I just figured if I'm going to sit around thinking about shooting my bow I might as well do the next best thing and TALK about shooting it. 

[rob-c]

1 minute ago, thatguy said:

I like the lipstick idea. There is potential to the idea that some how they go so far off center at release that they're already crooked enough going through the rest that they're hitting it. I could give it a shot. I'm currently sitting around attempting to heal a back injury, when I'm physically up for it I will give that a try...probably not in the next week or so. I just figured if I'm going to sit around thinking about shooting my bow I might as well do the next best thing and TALK about shooting it. 

Yep when you release your string the arrow will flex and look like a wet noodle. You could be getting contact. 

[nycredneck]

What is the change in overall physical weight of the arrow, sometimes when changing shafts you need to change head weight as well to keep the same arrow weight. If the arrow is much lighter it may fly as you described.

[Hock3y24]

14 hours ago, moog5050 said:

Confused as to why people think they are underspinned?  If the OP is a right hander, left suggests too stiff.  I have no idea what a raider is or its specs and a 350 seems reasonable for 70lbs if not underspinned at 31" but left indicates a stiff spine.

The reason i think they are under spined is the box i have states 300 spine for a 30 inch arrow out of a 70lb "soft" cam bow. 

[Buckmaster7600]

Paper tune!!!! If you can't chase the tear and the fletching isn't hitting anything then you have a spine issue. Bows are a pretty simple mechanism if the arrows aren't coming out of the bow straight there is a reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thatguy]

12 hours ago, Hock3y24 said:

The reason i think they are under spined is the box i have states 300 spine for a 30 inch arrow out of a 70lb "soft" cam bow. 

Would you mind throwing a picture up? I tossed the box a long time ago and cant find the chart online. I dont personally remember seeing anything like that but it could be false memory. Im curious about if i cut my arrow 1.5" if it will fall back into 350 spine range.

[thatguy]

14 hours ago, nycredneck said:

What is the change in overall physical weight of the arrow, sometimes when changing shafts you need to change head weight as well to keep the same arrow weight. If the arrow is much lighter it may fly as you described.

Good point. Its about 29g lighter assuming knocks and inserts are the same (theyre pre glued on one of the arrows.) I could go for a heavier broadhead or add a collar but im kind of betting that doing so would blow the arrow up if it IS underspined.

[Hock3y24]

12 hours ago, thatguy said:

Would you mind throwing a picture up? I tossed the box a long time ago and cant find the chart online. I dont personally remember seeing anything like that but it could be false memory. Im curious about if i cut my arrow 1.5" if it will fall back into 350 spine range.

Didn't see this earlier, ill see if i still have the box. here's a default from victory, they actually call it a mid cam not soft cam. cutting 1 inch off will put you back in spec according to this chart. 

[nycredneck]

And OH, I forgot to mention F.O.C., OH YEAH, I can spend HOURS talking about arrows and inserts and broad heads and vanes and nocks... well, you get the idea. I do all my own bow tuning and arrow building because I did not want to wait ( or spend the $$$ ) for the shop to do it, plus I like to tinker anyway. I bought archery tools one at a time at my leisure from ArcheryTalk or Craigslist when they where available and cheap ( like me  ). I did a lot of reading and experiment all the time with different broad heads, weighted & regular inserts and the arrow brands that are better. I now buy 3 blade Muzzy's by the dozens when available ( for cheap ) on Archerytalk so I have more $$ to spend on quality arrows. IN MY OPINION it is better to have quality arrows and sharpen my own more " inexpensive but effective broadheads". It's spending what you have wisely!!!

[growalot]

My old bow was a Hoyt Raider with intruder limbs . 50#'s full length arrows 100 gr. BH. I,as I recall shot ,wht.. Tails at 450... 

Since I got a Mission Venture,49#'s @ same length out of box carbon express.I'd have to check but same spine or 400's

To be honest...l just look at the box and what ever worked I don't get technical. That said , when I started out..my archery guy had me set up on that Hoyt with aluminium  Easton full length 31" 2115 lights

[growalot]

I take that back...I just checked those old arrows Whitetails 45/60 ( I use old ones as plant stakes) and not Carbon express...LOL I read too much..... Gold Tip XT hunters 3555/500.....7.4 per in.....+ - 0003 straightness These I really like....